designing a cattery

[chipsahoy]

Hi,  I am wondering what other options there are to keeping cats in  cages in a cattery?  I guess I would just love to be able to keep my breeders in the house.  Most things that I have read suggest that the queens live in cages and the Stud lives outside.  I don't have my own stud at this point, but I have had tom cats before that learned to spray before I got him fixed.  That was not that fun.

I was reading in one place about a different way.

They had a  nice big bright room in the basement, the concrete floors and walls sealed with sealing paint.  The females ran around the room all day and were put in cat condos at night to keep them from fighting.  I haven't really figured out how one would keep a stud in the house, but maybe someone out there already knows.  I am wondering if anyone keeps their cats in groups in the house instead of in little cages in a cattery?

 

[Willowy]

Now, I'm not sure how being unspayed affects a female's personality/tolerance of other unspayed females. But I have a lot of cats, all with free rein of the entire house, so I know that is possible. How many females are you thinking of having?

 

[StefanZ]

I think what you are talking about are big breeders with several active queens and perhaps also studs.

The breeders I know personally, they all have their  breeding cats as loved family cats.   They are of course small breeders.  The only exception may be studs, esp if they do spray much - or there are fertile queens around...

If having studs, they may be in such a room as you mention.  Or a small house in the garden.  Typically with a friendly companion cat.

Or - the studs are living somewhere else, with a co-owner, or the future buyer (who gets them really cheap after several matings done). or such.

Some have the studs at home them too, if they do behave.

 

[chipsahoy]

So a couple of queens co-exist together in the same house.  That's good, I really couldn't imagine with all the things that breeders look for in a good home for their kittens that they keep their queens in those pens that the internet shows when you look for cattery.

I know of a fellow locally, that breeds winning Siamese, and I was thinking of buying one.  He has a "room" that is about 8x10.  He has three queens that live together, in the room.  He has an outside run that is probably about 8x8 and the cats come in and out through a little door.  He has his own stud, but I don't know how he houses him most of the time, but he only breeds once and year, and all three queens at the same time.  He simply adds the stud in with the other cats and lets them breed. After the queens are done calling he leaves the stud with them until they have their kittens and removes him.  

The queens raise their kittens together.  I forgot to say that the room has stuff in it like little walls to get up on, or hide behind........ I didn't ask him if he penned the females separate at kittening time and then let them out.  I wasn't really that interested, I was just trying to figure out what kind of breeder he was.  His kittens are Pedigreed, so I am thinking it checks out. 

Does anyone else breed with this type of set up?

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[chipsahoy]

So I have decided to breed Siamese.  Yes, I am breeding pet stock not registered stock.  The kittens I have purchased are not born yet so I have 4 months to get ready.

I DO NOT Plan this to be a "kitten Mill" so, please give me a chance.  The stock will be well cared for, socialized, vetted, ect.  I will be setting aside money for emergency vet care.

I am working on learning all I can about keeping the cats content, yet safe as entact cats.  I am looking for them to have their own room/ place to go, yet be able to spend time together.  I have spoken for a stud and 2 queens.  I know there will be lots of people to tell me that I am making a mistake, but I am more interested in learning about the welfare of my cats. 

So What is your favorite kittening cage Idea?

What are the pros and cons of using cattery type cages? 


Does anyone have a good design for cat pens?

I am hoping that even though there are some out there that "wouldn't recommend" doing what I am trying to do, I am hoping that your desire to see cats well cared for is stronger than your opinion of my plans.  Please.................????

 

[chipsahoy]

cat house.jpg

• chipsahoy
• Mar 2, 2014

So what about this type of set up for when the queens aren't in the house with kittens?  The house part is 3x4 and the run part is 4x4.  I didn't even know that there would be really old books about catteries.  I didn't realize cat breeding was that old.   If you build 2 runs side by side with just wire between the two queens will they fight? or get along well?  I think they would be happier if they could see each other.

 

[Willowy]

Have you ever even owned cats before?

I really think this is a bad idea. If you don't know what you're doing, you can create some very nasty genetic problems. Plus I'm not sure you quite understand how much proper care costs----any breeder who cares for their cats properly DOES NOT make money on the venture. It's an expensive hobby, not a job. Being that you said you don't like Siamese very much, I don't think you're going to enjoy this, and I don't think it's going to end well for the cats :/.

How many litters are you planning to allow each female to have in her life? What are your plans for when they "retire"? What are your plans for what to do with kittens who don't sell? Do you have quick access to a 24-hour vet in case of a birthing emergency in the middle of the night? Do you understand about the vast amount of cleaning, food, and litter that pregnant cats and kittens require? There are a million different things to consider before undertaking this kind of venture.

That out of the way---

I don't see why you can't have the females as normal housepets. No reason to cage them if you only have 2. If they're raised together they should be friends; some people even report that their females who have litters at the same time will put all the kittens together and care for them communally. If they start to fight or spray I suppose you'll have to come up with something, but unless that happened I would would just recommend keeping them like any housecats.

The sketch you posted would be a good design for the tom's quarters. I would make them larger, though---I think living almost all the time in a 7' x 4' enclosure would be a bit cramped. I think a backyard shed (usually 6' x 8' or larger) with a run attached would be a good size. Or a lean-to built like that one but wider, maybe 6 feet instead of 4.

Here's an article: http://www.thecatsite.com/a/how-much-does-it-cost-to-breed-cats

 

[chipsahoy]

Yes, I have owned cats before, and Yes I had a cat here that had kittens before.  Before they went to their new homes they were all brought into the house, litter box trained. 

 Yes, I have access to 24 hour vet care, 

We have horses and I raise/breed show poultry so I am animal savey.  And have brought in Vets before after hours.

I have taught kittens to drink from a saucer, eat solid food, I have cleaned litter boxes before.

I have checked into the prices of vaccinating a litter, and prepared for that.

At this point the plan is for 2 litters per year per queen which is why I have to be able to pen up something to keep them from unplanned Pregs.

If I were to get a litter that wouldn't sell, I would either place them with people for free, and stop breeding, or  Simply allow them to be barn cats for myself, and stop breeding.

I have made that many plans.  I have, on the dairy farm at home, watched cats raise many kittens, and raise them all together in a colony.  I would be ok with that, I was just checking to see if you thought it was "ethical" to allow them to raise them that way.  I know that the biggest danger with that is if one litter gets sick then, the both do, which might make vet care more expensive.

I don't have a retirement plan at this point, but as for how long they would be having kittens would depend on the overall health of the cats.  I would guess at this point they would retire to be spayed barn cats. 

I thank -you for helping me, and I have so noted your concerns, and I wanted you to point those out as well.  I don't claim to have thought of everything, before or now.  To me, your are a true Cat breeder, because you care more for the wealfare of my cats than you do about your own opinion of the situation or mine.  To me that is a true cat lover.  And for what it is worth, I am that same kind of person.  My desire to learn to look after them well, is stronger than my fear of rejection or being scolded, by Registered breeders.   Thanks for being honest, direct, and helping me anyway.

 

[Willowy]

I'm not a breeder, I'm a rescuer. Most of the ethical breeders hang out on breeder boards and not general forums. I do care about cats, very much, and the truth is that there are far too many cats in this world and not enough homes for all of them. Millions are killed for lack of homes. I do not like seeing anybody create more cats when this just takes homes away from the homeless cats so that they die.

I can make exceptions for registered, ethically bred purebreds, because their breeders MAKE SURE that cats they produce don't get killed for lack of a home, EVER. They will, at any point in the cat's life, take it back---either keep it themselves or find it a new home---if the owner can't keep it. They also spay/neuter all kittens before selling them to make sure that their kittens do not add to overpopulation. It doesn't really sound like you'll be ensuring your cats' safety like that. So I can't say I'm happy about what you want to do. I think that kind of breeding is damaging to the cat population in general, and to the cats involved in particular. But people will do whatever they want to do, I guess.

 

[chipsahoy]

I think that there is a " perspective difference" between producers of Pets/show animals, birds and those that raise livestock.

I raise show birds and to me the cost is sort of irrelevant.  I buy the best I can for the purpose I intend them for.  I carefully control the day length and temperature to get the most eggs I can from the birds to set the incubator.  Running an incubator is a very technical process, but it is an means to a end.  If you don't hatch eggs, then you have no birds to sell.  I cull hard, selling "pet quality" birds to  people if I have them available and only show the best that I can raise.  I bath them, blow them dry and use all the other tricks I have learned to have them so that the judge can handle them safely and they will present themselves well to the judges. 

I occasionally sell some breeding stock, when I have some that is left over that is good enough and someone wants it.  After I sell them, the responsibility of that bird goes with it.

Now, if I were raising poultry as "livestock" and not show, it would be no different than having a cow.  Her "job" is what she can produce for me.  As long as she is productive, then she has a wonderful home.  When She is no longer productive, she is replaced.   

Do I neglect my production hen?  Absolutely not!  Why? because to get the "best" product from her, I need her to be healthy, happy, not as pampered as the show bird, but it is certainly not in my best interest to neglect her or abuse her in anyway.    I do understand that there are a lot of back yard breeders who can't see that.  I really am not asking anyone to agree, simply letting you see a glimpse of my personality. 

If I have cats that fall under the "livestock" category, then they still will be pampered, well fed, rested when necessary.   I don't over confine any of my animals, but I also know that confinement is sometimes necessary for their health and well being.

BUT having said that, to continue my analogy, would it be worth a livestock producers effort to pamper and raise that production chicken, if there was already so many eggs laying around that they were free, and being thrown out everywhere?   Would a farmer milk a cow knowing that her milk would be left to rot, because there was so much milk that it was free flowing in the ditches on the side of the road?  Your right Probably not.

OK, I started out to explain my point of view, and ended up better understanding yours.  Neat how those things work out isn't it?

But at this point I can't rehome a rescue cat either, because  the rules are so strict that I can't use them for hunting. 

That opens another topic, but I still think that animals are happiest when they are allowed to do the job that they were created to do.  I don't believe in factory farming, because it doesn't allow the animal to do what comes natural to them, but doesn't the same thing apply to cats? They naturally hunt.  Are we really doing them any favour not letting them do what comes Naturally to them? 

I am not trying to start and argument here, simply trying to think my way through this out load, or at least through my fingers................ 

Willow I like your style of teaching!

 

[chipsahoy]

If I understand genetics correctly, it seems that animals that have babies in litters, groups, clutches, ect do so because of the abundance of other animals that prey on them. 

Then there is the natural selection, where they have to survive the predators, disease, and climates and instincts of their parent.  Those best equipped to survive do, and those that aren't equipped to survive don't. 

It would Seem that God uses these types of things to keep his nature in Balance. 

So the question I am now pondering is "has people not having their cats spaded and neutered caused the problem of over population?" OR has Pampering to the point of no natural selection, caused the over population problem?

I really can't believe how many older cats there are to give away on line classifieds.  It is amazing to me how someone could live with an animal for years and then just give it away.

I think that society is mutating towards making shorter and shorter commitments, we change jobs, relationships, vehicles, houses, and everything far more often than ever before, and yet with medical break throughs  we can keep cats that might have use to live 'till 10 live until 16-20.  I think that also contributes to the "over population" problem.                   Suppose there comes a time that we should allow the dying to ........... Die?

 

[Willowy]

Well, in times past, people drowned kittens to control the population (OK, a lot of farmers still do). And after there were animal shelters, the earliest recorded data in the US (1970s) shows that they killed 20-30 million cats and dogs a year. And that's before people started keeping cats indoors on a regular basis. So I don't think pampering has caused overpopulation. Thankfully, in recent years the population issue has gotten to be more reasonable (almost certainly due to spay/neuter, but I'm willing to consider other factors); US shelters are currently killing "only" 3-5 million pets a year. I'm sure Canadian stats looks pretty similar, although I've never actually seen the Canada numbers.

But, yes, keeping cats as pets has definitely caused them to have a higher survival rate. Simply feeding them greatly improves reproductive success. We also provide protection from predators and illnesses, etc. If cats were fully wild, sure, there probably wouldn't be an overpopulation problem. But they aren't fully wild, and this causes things to get out of whack, and so we need to find a way to control the population. I prefer spay/neuter to killing .

 

[chipsahoy]

~~" More than 60,000 cats were euthanized in Canadian shelters in 2011, according to a new report released by the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies"

well, that is a good point too.  There is no point of playing "what If", we have to live in the world that we actually live in. 

What is the most frequent reason given for surrendering a cat to a shelter?

Why do you think that many people would rather buy a kitten from a "backyard breeder" than get one from a shelter?

 

[Willowy]

Why do you think that many people would rather buy a kitten from a "backyard breeder" than get one from a shelter?

I don't know if "many people" do prefer to buy from a backyard breeder. Unless you include oops litters and other unwanted kittens. I don't actually know anyone who has gotten a kitten from a BYB, I assume that mainly applies to people who want a purebred for some reason and do not want to pay the price a reputable breeder may charge. Or they don't know the difference between a reputable breeder and a BYB (because sometimes BYBs actually charge more!).

For those who don't care if they have a purebred, most get their kittens from an oops litter or a farmer. There's not much reason to take time to go to a shelter if your friend/neighbor is pushing a kitten into your hands :/. Those who can't find a free kitten don't seem to have much trouble going to a shelter. There are just too many to find homes for all of them.

I imagine the screening process a decent shelter or breeder implements discourages some people. But I can't expect anyone who actually cares about their cats to just give them to anybody. They may find homes but is it a GOOD home? Or will they just end up dead or in a shelter in a few years?

As for top reasons people surrender their pets, this is from 2008 but things probably haven't changed much since then: http://www.examiner.com/article/top-10-reasons-people-give-up-their-dogs-and-cats

 

[chipsahoy]

My problem isn't so much what purebred breeders charge, as it is the control that they maintain.  To me, it seems that breeders don't sell you a cat, they rent them.  I am not saying that to be mean, it is entirely up to them how they do it, just like what I do is up to me, but   I can't think of anything else that a person can buy that the seller gets the money AND total control over what you can do with it.   I just don't take being micromanaged that well.  I know that there are subdivisions that tell you the size of your house or what it can be built out of, but I wouldn't live there either.  I guess I figure if I work as hard for my money as I do, then why should someone else get to tell me what I want to do with it?  The problem is........... I never realized it before, I went looking, but the local shelter does the same thing. That is what drives me to the backyard.

 

[Willowy]

Yeah, but there are SO MANY unwanted pets who aren't in shelters, ya know? I don't think the only choices are a backyard breeder or a shelter or a reputable breeder. Not for cats anyway. The dog situation is somewhat different as dogs don't breed as much as cats do.

I know some breeders do have arrangements like co-ownerships, etc., but I think most shelters don't "rent" the pets. They do have requirements for adoption (again, to make sure the animals don't end up dead somewhere), but after that the only long-term requirement is that you return the pet to them if you can't keep it. Which is only reasonable, as they don't want the pet to get killed for lack of a home. I just don't see any "total control".

I realize that legally, animals are possessions. There are animal cruelty laws, of course, but they are still possessions. But really, a live animal is so much more than that. I would hope that someone who wants to breed would have more regard for their animals than a desk chair or something :/.

 

[chipsahoy]

~I understand that as part of the follow-up program, the SPCAAR can phone or visit me to see how the pet is progressing. At any time an SPCAAR representative may examine the adopted animal and living conditions and return the adopted animal to the SPCAAR if the representative feels the conditions are unsatisfactory, or if I have not complied with any term of the Animal Adoption Contract.

The above quote comes directly from the Shelters application for a cat, which clearly says that they hold the right to "drop in" and "remove" if they feel necessary.  To me that is a rental agreement, not a sales agreement.   Earlier in the same document it states that the cat MUST spend the night in the house with the family.  And there is also a question that asks how many hours a day the pet will be alone.  A barn cat doesn't qualify, but  As long as it is fed ,not abused or neglected, to me it isn't any of their business.

 

[Willowy]

Yeah, to me that is over the top. I would not agree to random home visits. Now, probably they don't actually do it very often, and only put that in there for legal reasons, so they have legal standing to remove an animal from a bad situation, but still a bit too much IMO. In most places there are other shelters and rescues to choose from---some are bound to have more agreeable policies. Same with breeders. Adoption/buyer's contracts vary wildly. There may not be a lot of options in your immediate area though.

But I don't really know; I've never adopted a cat from a shelter or gotten one from a breeder. . .there are so many strays and unwanted pets thrust upon me that I don't have room! There are so many oops litters. I'm sure there are strays, unwanted pets, and oops litters in your area, too. Farmers here kill MANY unwanted cats.

 

[chipsahoy]

One thing we have going for us around here is that in NB it is now illegal to have a cat declawed.  I mention that  because I noticed your signature and thought I would mention it.  I didn't even know that before I contacted a vets office to find out about kitten care..... not that I would ever have done that anyway. 

 

[mycatsinthetub]

Why not have purebred cats? If you are carefully breeding and caring for them why not also work on improving the breed too? Add an extra layer of benefit to your work.


Or better yet breed actual barn cats. The kind that catch mice and rats, avoid coyotes, and are good around kids and livestock. Big ranges beasts that like rural life. There is a huge shortage of quality barn cats.