Sebastian is Back at the Vet...Suspected Pancreatitis Again :(

[ldg]

We used distilled water when the boys had repeat crystal problems. When a cat is eating a wet food diet, the water intake tends to be minimal, so the lack of trace minerals may not be an issue. It really depends on how much water is needed in the diet vs getting moisture from the food.

 

[felyne]

Water is the most important nutrient according to the ASPCA. I wouldn't discount trace minerals.

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/cat-care/nutrients-your-cat-needs

Water is the most important nutrient. Essential to life, water accounts for between 60 to 70 percent of an adult pet’s body weight. While food may help meet some of your pet's water needs (dry food has up to 10 percent moisture, while canned food has up to 78 percent moisture), pets need to have fresh clean water available to them at all times. A deficiency of water may have serious repercussions for pets: a 10-percent decrease in body water can cause serious illness, while a 15-percent loss can result in death.

 

[goholistic]

Thanks! I will definitely check about the water. I think there will be varying opinions across holistic vets on which is the best to use. In my research, I would say there has been equal recommendations between spring and purified. My concern with spring is the possiblity of certain constituents, such as minerals and naturally-occurring bacteria, stimulating an immune response. I kind of agree with @LDG in that as long as they're getting enough nutrients and moisture from a wet diet, then minerals in water may not be so important. I give Sebastian sub-q fluids every 2-3 days, so I hardly ever see him drink anyway.  I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I came across a study about iron in water and IBD (http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/168/9/1065.full). There were tests done on various brands of bottled water and some exceeded the guideless for contaminants (http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/bw/appa.asp). Of course, the water I am using is not in the list of those tested, so I'm taking a risk with it.  

  All I can say is that my three cats seemed to have improved signficantly in terms of vomiting since switching from Brita-filtered tap to bottled purified. 

 
Hi, Gilded Owl Jewelry here coming over from my google post about Cheeky. 

I'll keep watch to see how the poor guy is doing. Just enjoy every day that you can. Try not to drive yourself crazy. But you will. We all do anything humanly possible to help. 

I came up with this idea about pilling a cat that helped me get thru the nasty IBD. I was able to get awful stuff without a hitch. 

http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?bl...onClosedMenu=allposts;postNum=25;src=postname

Helped me lots, hope it helps someone else. 

Hugs & strength to anyone going through this.

Hi there! Thanks for coming over! I'm not sure what the link is, but it brings me to a Google login screen. 

To everyone else: The person who owns Gilded Owl Jewelry had an entry on her blog about how she was treating her cat with IBD. I came across it in one of my research frenzies. Her cat seemed to be right where Sebastian was...same meds and all. I made a comment on the blog and we've chatted a few times. Unfortunately, she informed me that she had to put her cat down at the end of August, I believe, after a two-year battle. It is very heartbreaking.  

  (I hope you don't mind me sharing. These are all good, caring people on here.)

ETA: I just found your thread on TCS from earlier this year, so you already know everybody. 

 

[lbailey]

Do certain afflictions cause a cat to not absorb the water too?

For instance, not too long after I got my 11 year old cat I noticed her water intake was increasing. I thought about diabetes, and looked on the back of the Before Grain dry food I fed her, and saw potato starch as the second ingredient... it was at that time I started her on raw and real food. In understanding what my parents fed this cat, and later (after my cat died) about what may cause thyroid problems, I think I was fighting an uphill battle with my cat. I didn't go the traditional medicine route, yet think the natural diet helped my cat, but also didn't understand all the signs, and my cat was so good natured, that I thought some things I was seeing was old age.... anyhow, I offered my cat bottled spring water, and tried (eventually) to make her meals very wet. I found this site after my cat passed away a couple months ago, to understand better what happened and what to do better should I get a cat again.

 

[felyne]

You have to see what works. Don't forget, a tiny peanut can kill someone, so small amounts can also benefit, or harm. Imagine if you lived in an area where fracking contaminated the water!?!!

 

[goholistic]

@lbailey, I'm so sorry about your cat.  

  I think the lesson learned here is that these kinds of observations warrant a visit to the vet. Abnormal, increased thirst and/or urination is definitely a red flag. Tests can be run to confirm diabetes, hyperthyroidism, renal failure, etc. A natural raw diet can definitely help keep things under control, but sometimes intervention needs to first be made with traditional medicine and then adjusted as necessary. As hard as we try, there are times when all the supplements and natural treatments in the world won't help, and traditional medicine is necessary. I think the synergistic combination of the two is optimal.

@felyne, I agree! That is why I am [over]analyzing everything. It's a gift and a curse of mine.

 

 

[mamabirdy]

Having been reading this thread throughout the day and I noticed that several posts mention the Meatloaf position, can someone explain what that is please or even post a photo, thank you.

 

[denice]

I don't have any pictures but its when they lay on their stomach with their legs tucked up under their body.  It can be a sign of gastro distress but it isn't always.

 

[goholistic]

Having been reading this thread throughout the day and I noticed that several posts mention the Meatloaf position, can someone explain what that is please or even post a photo, thank you.

I don't have a picture right now of Sebastian in this position, but it's basically when all four limbs are tucked under their body. Here's one from an internet search.

 

[lbailey]

It has been a tough thing for me to think about in terms of medicine for my cat... we tried a natural-driven vet a couple of years ago here in L.A., and I was unhappy with the lack of activity in the examination, not to mention the vibe I got from both the vet and the front desk. I encountered two distant homeopathic vets, but still didn't like what I encountered... didn't feel that a vet could figure out my cat without looking at her, like over the phone exams, or have me fill out a checklist. And, the vet I took my cat to in the end scared me the most... I am convinced at one point they tranquilized my cat, and did not tell me. Also, when I asked wether I should put my cat down, my vet said "well, I have two cats at home, one I would put down and the other I would medicate", she would not give me a straight answer. I commend some of the stories I hear on this site about people taking care of their cats, but honestly, the meds that I read about fall off the tongues of people as if it just so normal to pump our cats full of medicine, yet we cannot discuss any of this with our cats. I was so confused, and looking at my smart cat, listening to my natural driven friends, listening to all sides ... I did not know what to do. In the end I tried to put medicine down my cat, and she was so lock-jawed, I couldn't do it... which led to the vet visit where I felt duped by the conventions of medicine. My cat made it fifteen years on her own, I thought she would have gone more, she just kind of slipped away from me in the last week of her life. I will probably look for a vet I like before I get another cat, this wonderful cat was sprung upon my life in 2009... my dad died four years ago, and though I didn't take her when he offered her to me while he was still alive, his death put a different spin on it. I took good care of this cat, despite my own personal questioning, everyone who knew me and that cat said so... I have to go with it, because I do doubt myself, but I am not really a fan of the conventions of medicine for people either, don't like the pill popping some people go through!

 

[felyne]

In the end, you have to do what you have to do, both what is good for you and the cat. No one opinion is better than another. We follow our gut, our cat's less than stellar communications, and do our best. Whatever works for you.

 

[ldg]

Water is the most important nutrient according to the ASPCA. I wouldn't discount trace minerals.

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/cat-care/nutrients-your-cat-needs

Water is the most important nutrient. Essential to life, water accounts for between 60 to 70 percent of an adult pet’s body weight. While food may help meet some of your pet's water needs (dry food has up to 10 percent moisture, while canned food has up to 78 percent moisture), pets need to have fresh clean water available to them at all times. A deficiency of water may have serious repercussions for pets: a 10-percent decrease in body water can cause serious illness, while a 15-percent loss can result in death.

Yes, absolutely. But how important is ADDED water? I think it's important to distinguish between proper hydration and drinking water, because a properly hydrated cat that gets that moisture from the diet doesn't need to drink additional water. :dk: (Especially if sub-q fluids are being provided). I feed my cats a raw diet. It is 73% moisture, and I have only one or two cats of 8 that drink any additional water on any kind of regular basis, yet they pee more than they did on canned and canned/dry with drinking water. Cats are naturally desert animals, and do not have the same kind of thirst drive that people or dogs - or most other animals - do. They evolved to get their needed water from their diet of prey animals. Of course I have numerous bowls of water out, it is there for them if they want it. But they don't *need* it.

A cat eating dry food definitely needs drinking water. About a cup a day, to equal the amount of water a cat eating canned food only gets from the diet.

 

[carolina]

@lbailey
, I'm so sorry about your cat.     I think the lesson learned here is that these kinds of observations warrant a visit to the vet. Abnormal, increased thirst and/or urination is definitely a red flag. Tests can be run to confirm diabetes, hyperthyroidism, renal failure, etc. A natural raw diet can definitely help keep things under control, but sometimes intervention needs to first be made with traditional medicine and then adjusted as necessary. As hard as we try, there are times when all the supplements and natural treatments in the world won't help, and traditional medicine is necessary. I think the synergistic combination of the two is optimal.

You know... I used to think this way... Tackle the problem with traditional medicine FIRST, then adjust with natural, holistic medicine... But then I learned to do the reverse... And it has been a successful and healthy approach for all my animals, 4 cats and a dog.
I am not saying by any means to forego vet care On the contrary... My vet is a traditional vet, and I make sure to see him at the first signs of trouble. I do the testings, we do the diagnosis, but when it comes to a treatment route, I try to always seek a natural route first. I do not pump pills, I reject antibiotics unless absolutely necessary.... My cats are known to have dental, even extractions without antibiotics. His vet calls the dental office to instruct the dentist on what to use, and what to look for. And guess what? Dental in the morning, next meal they are happily eating away.
When they had toxic Clostridium perfringens due to a bad batch of meat, the usual treatment is 10 days of Metronidazole. Nope. I decided, under close vet monitoring, to treat them with Sacharomyces Boulardii.
No antibiotics, no harm, perfectly healthy kitties.... The upside were many for all parties involved, including my vet.
The same way one might think that natural/alternative medicine might not work, sometimes traditional medicine doesn't work either.... It happened to my Bugsy when I tried so hard with traditional and what fixed him up was going natural. Only problem was, traditional medicine was not only not helping, it came with the price of bad side-effects.
Years ago I had a puppy knocking on deaths door with parvo. I mean... He was bad. No longer walking, eating, drinking, even lifting his head. His skin was literally melting away, he was bleeding from his pores, from his eyes...
I left in the morning to the University to find out my mom had left him at the vet to be euthanized. I RAN there and picked him up.... Thank heavens I got there on time. We had been treating him with traditional medicine... Going from vet to vet, trying everything - nothing worked.
Well, a contractor who was working at mom's house saw him and said: "there is a little Bush by the side of the road near my house that will get him healthy.... It's called sambacaeta. Women use it to relieve inflammation and infection after birth. You blend it with milk and give it to him with a syringe."
We had nothing to lose.... We told him to go get the little Bush by the side of the road. Blended with milk and started giving it to him.... That and fresh coconut milk to keep him hydrated.
He stopped bleeding.... Then a few days later he lifted the tip of his tail.... The his head..... Then a few weeks later we were able to lift him up to eat....
It took him 6 months to start walking again-from dragging himself like a snake, to crawling, to walking.... But after that he lived healthily for the next 13 years!
All because of a little Bush by the side of the road and coconut water.....
So to me, I have learned to choose to go first to a route that will cause the least amount of harm; to me that is a natural route.
I am not one to think things are black and white, and to refuse necessary treatments. If an urgent treatment is necessary and I can't try anything else, of course I will do whatever it takes. But my vet and I have an understanding and we work well together. So far, aside from rabies vaccine which is the law, since we started doing this my babies have been as healthy and happy as ever. I can't complain either...

 

[denice]

I would certainly rather have Patches off of steroids but I guess I am afraid to try something else.  I went through 6 years of him getting so sick.  The last major flare he had fatty liver and cholangiohepatitis.  His liver enzyme numbers look normal now but there probably is some liver damage.  I know my vet assumes that there is some liver damage.  He is also 10 years old now I don't think he has another one of these big flares left in him and survive it.

 

[goholistic]

I should have added "and vice versa" to my post above because I do agree that there are times when all the traditional medicine in the world won't help, and alternative medicine and natural therapies are necessary. I have experienced this a few times with cats.

I also said sometimes intervention needs to first be made with traditional medicine...I didn't say always. I think it really depends on the severity of the illness and condition of the cat. This is my opinion. Much like @Denice, I opted to go the steroid route with Sebastian because he had (has) damaging inflammation that was causing great pain, anorexia, vomiting, weight loss, dehydration, hypokalemia, etc. My vet and I saw all this as critical and needed something immediate and proven to work. We saw the effects of the illness itself more damaging to his body and organs than the traditional medicine would be. It was a balancing act...weighing the pros and cons...the good and the bad. On the other hand, I have always treated his FHV and URIs holistically first. He's never had an antibiotic for these flares.

 

[goholistic]

Okay...an update:

Sebastian is not really an active cat. He's laid back and pretty lazy, but will occasionally play with a shoelace or a shadow on the floor or wall. Well, last night and this morning, he was running around all over the place chasing the other two cats! He was totally playing AND keeping up!  

  He's been eating great, too. As always...knock wood.

I have an appointment for a phone consult with the homeopathic vet in Florida this Friday afternoon. I may decide to keep the appointment with the local holistic vet for next week. All this means is that I would be getting two consults from two different holistic vets. No harm in that, right? Other than the traveling for Sebastian. My mom might come with me if I decide to make the trip next week. She'll drive and I'll keep Sebastian company in the car.

I forgot to mention previously that the vet advised to reduce the Cerenia to 1/4 tablet daily - 5 days on, 2 days off. It's been over a week since making this change and all is well. Baby steps. I've also not observed any adverse reactions to the fish oil he's been getting for 2+ weeks or the coconut oil I've been using to coat his gel caps. As to the coconut oil, I decided to purchase the Nutiva organic cold-pressed coconut oil since it a better product. Boy does it smell delish! And the great thing is...Sebastian loves the taste. He thinks he's getting a treat when I pill him! 

I'm on a major cat shopping spree this week. In addition to the upgraded coconut oil, I've already purchased NOW Krill Oil, Thorne Sacro-B, more Spirit Essences, and a new stainless steel water fountain. On my to-do for tomorrow is to purchase digestive enzymes, ground rabbit from Hare Today, and some other things I need to make a homemade meal for Bastie boy. 

There is one thing I am worried about.  

  Sebastian's body shape. It sounds weird, I know. I feel like his rib cage area is protruding out further, but his waist is still quite small. So, naturally, I am worried about possible fluid build-up. I'm going to call the regular vet tomorrow to ask about this. It's really hard to tell because his fur is fluffy and thick. He could just be gaining weight and it's all going to his ribs.  

  I don't know. He's not wheezing or coughing or breathing weird, but I just feel I need to check up on this. Let's hope it's nothing. 

 

[amythyst]

Glad to hear your guy is doing well too!  My vet also told me to do 1/4 a pill of cerenia for 5 days and off 2.  If you have the means, I would consult as many vets as you feel you need to.

Hope you get good news and he continues to do well.

 

[ldg]

Oh goodness, let's hope it's nothing but some weight gain!

I hope Sebastian enjoys all the shopping! :cross:

 

[goholistic]

I had the phone consult with the homeopathic vet in Florida this afternoon. It was certainly different....and refreshing.

  He made some recommendations and is mailing me a few things to try, which I'm nervous about. This Monday will be the 4th week of a good stretch, so I'd hate to screw that up. 

I also talked to the regular doc. She said with my description of how well Sebastian is doing right now, that she thinks its just some weight gain. She said if he truly had fluid build-up, that it would go along with not feeling well (or cause him to not feel well). She's also not too concerned with the head shaking thing right now, but she wants me to check back after Thanksgiving if it continues.

So, next week, Sebastian will be having real, fresh rabbit meat for Thanksgiving.  

  I ordered ground rabbit meat and ground rabbit organs from Hare Today and it'll ship on Monday! I'd like a little pat on the back, please.   

   Of course, there's also that possibility that he'll sniff it and walk away.  I'll post my success (or failure) in the Cooked Rabbit thread (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/267724/cooked-rabbit-recipe).

 

[peaches08]

I'm glad he's feeling better and that you feel you have some options now! I hope he likes the rabbit, but if he refuses it at first don't worry about it. You've got time and ways to entice him to eat it.