Would you keep a cat if...

[keke]

you weren't attached to it? If it hardly ever acknowledges you even exist? If they are so submissive that everytime you go to pet them they either roll on their back and show their belly or run off? If they peed on the floor after you've tried everything besides Feliway? If they were only 7 months old and doing this and they've done this for the past 5 months?

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by KeKe

If they are so submissive that everytime you go to pet them they either roll on their back and show their belly

Do you realize that this is the utmost demonstration trust that a cat can give you? I guess not, right? It is very loving too, he is asking for a [font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]skritch[/size][/font], in the most vulnerable position he could be in, showing you that he trust you completely, and that he knows that you would never hurt him. That is NOT being submissive.

To answer your your question, absolutely yes, I would keep a kitty, the only difference is that I can not even begin to imagine not being attached to them after such a long time.

 

[keke]

Originally Posted by carolinalima

Do you realize that this is the utmost demonstration trust that a cat can give you? I guess not, right? It is very loving too, he is asking for a [font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]skritch[/size][/font], in the most vulnerable position he could be in, showing you that he trust you completely, and that he knows that you would never hurt him. That is NOT being submissive.

To answer your your question, absolutely yes, I would keep a kitty, the only difference is that I can not even begin to imagine not being attached to them after such a long time.

I read on another post here that that is a sign of submission which leads to multiple issues such as peeing outside the litterbox, destructiveness, etc. It has been true in this case. I used to think the showing of the belly was very cute, however, when you go to pet a cat and they run off, what makes you think that is trusting behavior? I am very curious.

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by KeKe

I read on another post here that that is a sign of submission which leads to multiple issues such as peeing outside the litterbox, destructiveness, etc. It has been true in this case. I used to think the showing of the belly was very cute, however, when you go to pet a cat and they run off, what makes you think that is trusting behavior? I am very curious.

Keke, cats do things in strange ways... in their own terms... None of my cats are lap cats... two of them will run when I approach them. They will come to me when they want to. That is just who they are... The one who runs away the most sleeps with me every night... When I am sitting down, or laying down, and he sees I am not a threat, that is when he will flop and turn belly up for [font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]skritches.
But they are always around me. I don't know what the story of your cat is, and what you heard about flopping belly up - but believe me when I say - you should feel honored instead of annoyed. He is telling you that he trust you completely and he loves you. That is what it means in cat's language.

Tell us more about your kitties, so that we can understand what it is going on, and maybe we can help you? Many of us, including me had Strays ferals and shy cats, so we might be able to help you...

As far as the peeing goes -
The number one reason for peeing outside of the litterbox is Urinary Tract Infection - has he been seen by a vet?
Also, what litter are you using?
How many litter boxes do you have, for how many cats?
How are you cleaning the pee spots?
Have you tried Kitten Attract Litter? or Cat Attract Litter?



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[keke]

Sorry carolinalima...just feeling very frustrated.

She has been seen and does not have a UTI. We are using the Kitten Attract litter. We have 2 litterboxes for 2 cats.

As far as the belly up, she only does it when she gets in trouble, i.e. running into a closet when we open the door or getting ontop of a table or countertop. We walk real fast towards her and she goes belly up. Sometimes she even does it when she THINKS she did something wrong when infact she hasn't.

 

[carolina]

How long ago was she seen? Might be time for a second opinion.
How big are the litterboxes, how often do you clean them where are they located? Are they open or covered?
Also, how are you cleaning the pee spots?

ETA:

Can you add a litter box? Make it 3 boxes for 2 cats?

 

[missymotus]

Originally Posted by KeKe

As far as the belly up, she only does it when she gets in trouble, i.e. running into a closet when we open the door or getting ontop of a table or countertop. We walk real fast towards her and she goes belly up.

I've never met a cat who didn't want to explore an open closet or cupboard, or didn't jump on a table or bench.

I suggest you stop walking fast towards her, sounds like its making her afraid of you.

 

[gloriajh]

Originally Posted by KeKe

you weren't attached to it? If it hardly ever acknowledges you even exist? If they are so submissive that everytime you go to pet them they either roll on their back and show their belly or run off? If they peed on the floor after you've tried everything besides Feliway? If they were only 7 months old and doing this and they've done this for the past 5 months?

I can't imagine not being attached to a cat that I've brought into my family, even on the very beginning level - no matter what their difficulties might be - once they are in my family - it's for better or worse

.

My heart goes out to your little lost soul that really sounds like she needs a lot of loving - but, instead might be getting a lot of negative vibes???

She might do better in another family - you sound too frustrated to help her - she really deserves a happy life - all cats do, and she's no exception, I'm sure, and so do you.

What sort of "discipline" do you use?

I agree with carolinalima about the UTI thing - or maybe she is just so stressed out that she pees on the floor?

Cats are so different, just like humans in their individualities. I have one that thinks he should be carried, or cuddled all the time, another male that is just beginning to do more cuddling after almost 3 years, and his sister who is just a little stinker and runs about every time I try to pick her up to cuddle. (She's a calico, and such a girlie girl.)

I'm really sorry, I really don't mean to come down on you, or your care of her - but your post sounds like you are unable to cope with some things, and maybe she's just expressing, or mirroring, what ever feelings she's getting from you - cats are smart that way.

I hope you find a solution soon.

 

[farleyv]

Oh dear, your kitty sounds like she is asking for positive attention. Showing the belly, that is what we all strive for! When we tame down a feral cat, that is the definitive sign of success..trust.

I agree that another vet opinion is needed. There are so many reasons a cat chooses not to use a certain box as has been stated. Is litter too scented?''

All the cats that have found their way into my life have been cherrished. Whether they are affectionate or not. Whether they have problems or not. Kittens aren't interested in whether you exist or not for a while. Life is too interesting and everything is a potential toy. I would just smile and realize that this does not last forever and enjoy their playfull nature while you can. Kittens are totally self absorbed! Not a bad thing.

Other than the litter issue, your kitten sounds perfectly normal and is trying to form a bond with you. Please meet her halfway.

 

[fifi1puss]

I was wondering also if maybe the cat is scared? Showing his belly to you is not only a sign of trust in most cats but also a sign of submission although they exhibit it in submission more towards other cats, its true. If this is happening most often when those "discipline times" come up than this cat is obviously cowering in front of you. I've seen my cats do this with one another, showing their belly as showing that the other is superior to them.

Think about the cats perspective: humans are HUGE compared to them. If he is showing signs of submission to you and peeing around the house he must be scared out of his mind. I think that if you are not bonded with him and cannot care for his pschycological needs than you need to make sure he gets a better home. But please do this with love for him, not out of frustration. Take a breath and really make sure he will find a good home.

I am curious to know how you discipline him?

 

[otto]

Showing belly is not a sign of submissiveness. It is a sign of trust. That he runs when you reach for him after showing his belly simply means he doesn't want you to touch it.

From my point of view it sounds like he is disliked. Cats are very sensitive and he will certainly feel it if you don't like him.

Getting into closets is not "bad" behavior it is normal cat behavior.

I am usually skeptical when I hear "we've tried everything". Has this cat had a urinalysis done recently? If not that is the first thing to do. The urine should be sent to a lab to be evaluated for crystals, stones and bacteria.

A couple more litter boxes should be added.

All scent must be removed from spots where he has peed or he will continue to pee there. You need an enzymatic cleaner for that. A cleaner with enzymes that break down the bacteria in the urine. Even if you can't still smell it, he will.

What is this cat's history? Is your house noisy and busy? Maybe he has a temperament that needs a quieter life.

 

[mai_kitties]

It sounds to me that this kitty is very much afraid and stressed out.

Firstly, discipline in any form does not work with cats. Deterrents yes, discipline no. Discipline will only serve to make your cat afraid of you and the only thing they learn is to not do said activity while you are around. For example, if you walk very fast and yell at the cat when she jumps on the counter it just means that to her you are scaring her and that you could mean her harm. Yes, you see the immediate result of her jumping down, but that does not mean that she realizes that she is not allowed up there, she just realizes that she needs to get away from you. It also drives home to her that you are scary whenever your are walking towards her, even when you just want to pet her.

Better ways of keeping your cat off of things that you don't want them on is to make it so that it's not a fun experience. We have Pepsi cans filled with coins just for such occasions. Our new kitten loves trying to jump up on the counters. He does not like jumping up on the counters and then smacking into loud clanging cans. He is learning that when he jumps up on counters he gets scared... of the counters... not me.

Discipline that is directed from you only results in the kitty being afraid of you.

As for peeing outside the box, there are usually only three things that cause this, health issues, stress, or they can still smell a marked spot. Health issues should always be ruled out first, but it sounds in your case that it's not really a health issue and its coming from stress. If you want the inappropriate peeing to stop you need remove the stress from your kitty's life.

So it sounds to me like you have a few choices to make, either to give her to a home that will be patient and work with her, or for you yourself to be patient and work with her.

If you choose to work with her, you need to start mending fences right away. Give her space and learn what her boundaries are right now. If she rolls over to show her belly but she doesn't want you to touch it... then don't touch it. Try to scritch her on the head instead. If you are walking towards her and she positions herself to run or her ears go back, stop walking towards her. Treats also go a long way with making friends. If she associates you with good things, then she will eventually see you as a good thing.

As for the peeing, get yourself a good enzyme cleaner and a good black light and start searching. Clean every spot you find with the black light and make trouble spots inaccessible to her. While it sounds like stress is causing her to pee outside the box, it can very easily turn into a habit that won't be easy to break. It takes patience but with the right tools you can get her going in the box again.

And start researching the tons of ways to deter cats from doing the things you don't want them to do without making you the bad guy. Also keep in mind that training a cat to leave stuff alone or not go in certain areas is a lesson in patience. They will absolutely not figure it out overnight... or even a week. Cat's love to push the boundaries. Just when you think they will never jump on a counter again in their life... you walk into the kitchen and there is a fuzzy butt planted on your clean counter. But that is sort of the charm of a cat i suppose

 

[cruisermaiden]

Originally Posted by KeKe

If they peed on the floor after you've tried everything besides Feliway?

I am interested to know why you have not tried Feliway? That is one of the recommended treatments for stress and inappropriate elimination, are you opposed to it for some reason?

I have had a troubled kitty before and completely understand your frustration, but I also agree with the other posters that kitty may be picking up on your stress.

 

[Ms. Freya]

Originally Posted by carolinalima

How big are the litterboxes, how often do you clean them where are they located?

This is the one that stuck out to me since we ran into this with Cotton when he first came home - turns out he just needed a bigger box.

I know others have said it, but it does sound like kitty wants to trust you very much. At this point, I think it will just take patience for you and kitty to sort out your living arrangements. And just remember that cats are cats. Some of them will never be cuddly lap cats. It doesn't mean they love you any less, it's just not their thing.

 

[momofmany]

Is she spayed?

I care for a lot of cats, all of which were homeless and feral when I found them. Half of them run from anyone but me and all of those will run away if I tower over them, or walk with too heavy a step. I love all of them because they are who they are.

 

[ldg]

Good question! Is she spayed?

Working with ferals, every single one of our kitties was scared of us when first rescued. Personally, I love them all the more because they need it the most, even if they don't realize it yet.

(And yes, we had a problem with a kitty peeing outside the box).

Seems to me she is stressed and scared. Also, I'm not so sure the belly up is submission or trust. It is also a very defensive position. Ever watched cats fight or play fight? On the back is a ready-to-defend itself stance, especialy in feral, scared, or under-socialized cats.

What I'd do is get her to a different vet for a second opinion on her bladder health. I'd also schedule an appointment to get her spayed if she's not already.

Then when I brought her home, I'd put her in one room, the way she should have been introduced to your home.

She should be confined to one room - a guest bedroom or a large bathroom. Set her up with two litterboxes of different sizes, both not covered. Put her food and water as far away from them as possible. Have the room ready for her, having sprayed it with Feliway - or having gotten a Feliway diffuser. Make sure you follow the instructions, and do NOT get the Feliway anywhere near her litter boxes or scratching post(s).

This gives you time to purchase a black light and a good enzyme cleaner. We had a kitty peeing outside the box, and this was the best one we found: http://www.nokout.com/odorelim/pets/ Because this has been going on for five months, it may take several applications to entirely rid your home of her pee scent. But wait until the area is completely dry before trying again.

In the meantime, spend as much time in the room with her as possible. Read out loud, sing, sew, talk to her, work on a laptop, fold laundry, iron - whatever. Do as much of it down at floor level as possible. Ignore her as much as possible. If you look at her - look at her forehead. Looking at a cat directly in the eyes is a sign of aggression. Only kitties that already trust us understand we're not being aggressive to them when we look at them in the eyes.

Just let her get used to you all over again, and help her understand you're not a threat, and not something scary. Take a nap in there, "look" at her with your eyes closed. Get a t-shirt really sweaty, and leave treats out on it for her. Get another one really sweaty and leave it under her food dish. Help her associate you with good things, with things she loves - while being totally non-threatening.

Perhaps get these CDs and play them for her:
http://www.musicmypet.com
http://www.catfaeries.com/music-for-cats.html

The will help de-stress her.

Don't reach out to pet her. If you're reading out loud or whatever and she comes over - continue to ignore her. Let her investigate you without reaching out to her, without looking at her.

The trust you will build by restarting your relationship will be well worth it.

If you dont' have the time - then consider rehoming her. But bear in mind that an older kitty that is under-socialized and scared of people with a peeing problem will not be easy to place.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by LDG

Good question! Is she spayed?

Working with ferals, every single one of our kitties was scared of us when first rescued. Personally, I love them all the more because they need it the most, even if they don't realize it yet.

(And yes, we had a problem with a kitty peeing outside the box).

Seems to me she is stressed and scared. Also, I'm not so sure the belly up is submission or trust. It is also a very defensive position. Ever watched cats fight or play fight? On the back is a ready-to-defend itself stance, especialy in feral, scared, or under-socialized cats.

What I'd do is get her to a different vet for a second opinion on her bladder health. I'd also schedule an appointment to get her spayed if she's not already.

Then when I brought her home, I'd put her in one room, the way she should have been introduced to your home.

She should be confined to one room - a guest bedroom or a large bathroom. Set her up with two litterboxes of different sizes, both not covered. Put her food and water as far away from them as possible. Have the room ready for her, having sprayed it with Feliway - or having gotten a Feliway diffuser. Make sure you follow the instructions, and do NOT get the Feliway anywhere near her litter boxes or scratching post(s).

This gives you time to purchase a black light and a good enzyme cleaner. We had a kitty peeing outside the box, and this was the best one we found: http://www.nokout.com/odorelim/pets/ Because this has been going on for five months, it may take several applications to entirely rid your home of her pee scent. But wait until the area is completely dry before trying again.

In the meantime, spend as much time in the room with her as possible. Read out loud, sing, sew, talk to her, work on a laptop, fold laundry, iron - whatever. Do as much of it down at floor level as possible. Ignore her as much as possible. If you look at her - look at her forehead. Looking at a cat directly in the eyes is a sign of aggression. Only kitties that already trust us understand we're not being aggressive to them when we look at them in the eyes.

Just let her get used to you all over again, and help her understand you're not a threat, and not something scary. Take a nap in there, "look" at her with your eyes closed. Get a t-shirt really sweaty, and leave treats out on it for her. Get another one really sweaty and leave it under her food dish. Help her associate you with good things, with things she loves - while being totally non-threatening.

Perhaps get these CDs and play them for her:
http://www.musicmypet.com
http://www.catfaeries.com/music-for-cats.html

The will help de-stress her.

Don't reach out to pet her. If you're reading out loud or whatever and she comes over - continue to ignore her. Let her investigate you without reaching out to her, without looking at her.

The trust you will build by restarting your relationship will be well worth it.

If you dont' have the time - then consider rehoming her. But bear in mind that an older kitty that is under-socialized and scared of people with a peeing problem will not be easy to place.

Terrific post.

 

[misty8723]

Personally, I think if you aren't attached to the kitty and sounds like not liking her very much either, you would be doing the cat a service to rehome her to someone who would care for the poor little baby the way she deserves.

Sometimes it takes time and patience to win a cat's trust and love, but it's always well worth the effort.

 

[angst]

to fix the peeing problem, as soon as he starts to squat (you should know what to look for by now), pick him up (even if he's mid-pee) and put him in the litter box as quickly as possible without scaring him. After that, give him a treat, and try not to take it so personally that he peed on you/the floor/etc. Then go clean up the floor. DO NOT DISCIPLINE HIM FOR PEEING ON THE FLOOR OTHERWISE YOU HAVE SEALED YOUR FATE. I know it can be hard to not discipline him for peeing outside the box, but you have to not discipline him. remember, they don't have near the IQ you do.

 

[samhainborn]

I did not read this entire post but the "submissive flopping" sounds like my mother's cat. How much socialization did your cat get as a kitten? did it have littermates? My mom's cat suffers from "single kitten syndrome" being the only kittne born in the litter, and she wasn't handled much as a kitten. Now she does do a submissive flop when you want to pick her up or anything.

it's not the soft stretch pet-me pose. she's half on her side and half curled, ears back, eyes mostly closed and very stiff all over, like she's cringing. Is this the behavior of your cat? My mother's cat has gotten better with time, but will probably never be a social, lovey dovey kitty.

Your cat is young enough that you may still have time to help correct this behavior. Now I'll go back and read the other posts and see if anyone said anything similar.