Why does this thread exist if the only response people want to give is "Moggie"?

[madamemowmow]

Excuse me as I am new and have not yet added my fur babies' photos on here yet. I just had to ask a question that has been nagging me as I read through posts here. I see countless people asking "What breed is my cat?" or "What breed does my cat look like?" and over and over people's only response is the given "it's a moggie of course" I feel that a good percentage of posters are not actually asking what breed their cat actually is as they know that their adopted fluff ball is a mix with no proven lineage, but rather they are just trying to give their new family member an identity by classifying it under a look/breed.



So why arn't we telling them, "your moggie is lovely it has many shared characteristics with such and such breed"? I mean they have no papers and I doubt people on here, bothering to create an account and post pictures of their beloved cat, have intention of falsely breeding, esp. since most I have read state that their cat is fixed. It's human nature to want to categorize, and its fun to go look up breeds personalities etc. and see if any descriptions match their own cat. I may be way off base here, but just by reading posts you can tell the new kitty parents do not know anything about breeds, but consider their cat to have very unique characteristics, and most who post do have some unusual (not your run of the mill DSH) looking cats. I think these folks just have a curiosity, and many of their cats do probably have some gene relating them to an exotic breed, obviously no where near pure bred, probably no more than 1/16 pure breed in the mix.



Again the board already states that without papers it is nothing more than a domestic cat, so why bother repeating this to people. When they post a picture, why not let them know what breeds look similar so they can enjoy learning about new breeds and probably end up knowing more about cats in general because of it. Again this is just a large generalization made about a pattern I have noticed, but for me if it looks similar to a Russian Blue I'll be the first to say "There is no way it's a purebred, and most likely has several breeds and mostly domestic in its lineage but it looks similar to either a Russian Blue. I do not mean to step on toes, and if I am missing something let me know, but I have the most precious green eyed, grey furball who is a DLH, but wow does she look like a Russian Blue, and I don't go telling people that she is, but in my mind there may be somewhere a chance that a little part of her is, even if infinity small.

 

[catbehaviors]

I'm with you! :lol3:

This section is here so that we can talk about what the cats look like, and look like only, so I don't see why people hesitate to mention any similar characteristics. However, I think sometimes the cats look like nothing more than a DSH/DLH, so it's hard to say anything otherwise.

 

[stealthkitty]

Hello MadameMowMow,

I'm not a breeder, but I'd like to take a stab at addressing the following points from your post. Someone with more knowledge can correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by MadameMowMow  

So why arn't we telling them, "your moggie is lovely it has many shared characteristics with such and such breed"?

I think these folks just have a curiosity, and many of their cats do probably have some gene relating them to an exotic breed, obviously no where near pure bred, probably no more than 1/16 pure breed in the mix.

Again this is just a large generalization made about a pattern I have noticed, but for me if it looks similar to a Russian Blue I'll be the first to say "There is no way it's a purebred, and most likely has several breeds and mostly domestic in its lineage but it looks similar to either a Russian Blue.

First, purebred cats of whatever breed have highly specialized, unique features that define the breed. Sometimes those features are also seen in the general cat population, but it's almost always in just one or two features, not several. For instance, you mention Russian Blues. Similar coloring can also show up in a moggie, but more likely than not the moggie will lack the other points that define a purebred Russian Blue. That's why you don't see many answers here that say "Your cat has many shared characteristics of Breed X." It just doesn't happen in real life. The closest that happens is a cat might have a feature or two that resembles that of a purebred and in those cases those features can be (and often are) pointed out, but they won't be enough to say it looks like a purebred or even a mix. They are simply showing genetic variations that exist in the general cat population. And not all cats show any such specific features.

You say that a moggie might be no more than 1/16 purebred or have several breeds; but that's not how it works. Cats are not like dogs in that they all are classified as some type of breed or breed mix and somewhere in the past are purebred ancestors. Here's a quote from an article on the National Institute of Health website:

Of the 41 breeds recognized by the Cat Fanciers' Association (CFA), sixteen “natural breeds” are thought to be regional variants that predate the cat fancy. The remaining breeds were developed over the last 50 years [. . .]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2267438/

Other associations recognize more breeds than the CFA, but the point is the same. Few breeds are naturally-occurring; the rest are very, very recent, and the chance that they have contributed genes to the general cat population is next to nil. However, in the case of those naturally-occurring breeds, it is a little more possible to find moggies that potentially share their ancestry. For instance, a large, long-haired cat found in certain areas of North America just might share the same ancestors as a purebred Maine Coon and could be a MC look-alike, although having no pedigree.

To sum up, it's always nice to have truthful and accurate answers when we ask questions; and in the case of cats, almost always the only truthful answer is that Cat X has no purebred lineage or features whatsoever--that is a fact, not an opinion. In some cases, we can say that a cat shares X feature with X breed even though it is in no way related to said breed; and in a very, very few cases, we can say that Cat X resembles a certain breed more closely than does the average cat, but nothing more. If someone wants to have a more accurate description of their pet, usually all that can be done is to correctly name its color and pattern, since the vast majority of cats have absolutely no purebred ancestors in their background. To insinuate otherwise would either be untruthful, or just pretend. And who would trust a forum that gave those kinds of answers?

In my experience, breeders have a love of cats of all kinds, not only of their preferred breed. When an expert says, as you say, "it's a moggie of course", they aren't saying that out of disdain for moggies, out of snootiness, or just to be unhelpful jerks.

It's because it is the only truthful, accurate, and knowledgeable answer that can be given; and they have no wish to mislead others.

I found this document that explains more about this; you might find it interesting.

Hope this helps; I tried to be clear and accurate but if someone else would like to correct a point or two, I'm always interested in learning more about this subject, too.

 

[stealthkitty]

However, I think sometimes the cats look like nothing more than a DSH/DLH, so it's hard to say anything otherwise.

It's like a painting; if we have a known painting by a known artist, we can get very specific in describing the painting and its origin.

But if we have a painting of unknown origin by an anonymous artist, we can still enjoy its beauty, describe its color and imagery, but can only wonder about the rest since there is no basis to say more.

And since the question posted here is almost always "What breed is my cat?" and not "What color is my cat?", the answer often doesn't address the color/pattern of the cat.

 

[carolina]

To the OP - I am with you.
First of all, this forum is no longer "what breed is my cat" - it is now called "Describing Cats - What Does My Cat Look Like?"

There is a BIG difference imho, in between the two - a cat can still be a moggie, but look like a breed.
Besides, IMHO, there is no reason to be short, rude, or have a tip on the shoulder - and IMHO it can happen here, which is unfortunate, especially with new members.

 

[tammyp]

I hear the question!  And maybe its a lack of knowledge in that area that prompts a standard 'DSH' answer.  The answer is right of course, but we can see some pointers in various features of the cat that could point to specific genes in the ancestry.  (Bare in mind that there are also some breeds that are very very unlikely to show up in a 'mongrel' mix simply because they are rare or not overly present in that part of the world.)  But it is completely fascinating to imagine what ancestry is in our cat!  

And here's some awesome info on cat features and where they may have come from.  These blog posts are really interesting - complete with pics:

http://www.wayofcats.com/blog/whats-in-my-cat-paws/7699

http://www.wayofcats.com/blog/whats-in-my-cat-ears/4974

http://www.wayofcats.com/blog/what’s-in-my-cat-fur/16451

 

[Willowy]

Well, here's the thing: purebred cats are super rare! Even mixed breed cats are rare. Let's look at the registration stats (the most recent info I could find is for 2004): http://www.showcatsonline.com/x/comparing-cat-registry-numbers2005.shtml

So, there are only around 60,000 registered cats in the U.S (if those TICA stats are all for the States; it doesn't say). Even assuming that there are a lot more unregistered purebreds, there are, at most, maybe around half a million "breed" cats in this country. Even if there are equally as many breed mixes, that still makes only about a million cats with any kind of breed heritage. And that's probably a highball guess. There's estimated to be 93.6 million pet cats in the U.S. So that's about 1%. Which means that 99% of cats have no breed heritage at all. Cat breeds are purely a human construct---even the "natural" breeds have been changed from their original state.

Cats are awesome all on their own. They don't need us to label them with a breed name!

 

[smitten4kittens]

I don't think people who post in this thread are looking for an answer worthy of TICA registration. But a lot of times that is how they are answered. I think the average cat owner who isn't a breeder is just looking for what breed their cat resembles (even slightly). They want an answer for when Grandma calls and asks about the new kitty

In my opinion the answer depends on who is asking. If someone who breeds cats asks me what kind I have I would say DSH because I know they aren't a particular breed.  If the friendly lady in line with me at the petstore tells me she has a tortie and asks what I have I say 2 brown tabbies,(even though I know tabby isn't a breed) because I don't think she cares that they are of no particular breed...she wants to know what they look like.

 

[stealthkitty]

I don't think people who post in this thread are looking for an answer worthy of TICA registration. But a lot of times that is how they are answered. I think the average cat owner who isn't a breeder is just looking for what breed their cat resembles (even slightly). They want an answer for when Grandma calls and asks about the new kitty

In my opinion the answer depends on who is asking. If someone who breeds cats asks me what kind I have I would say DSH because I know they aren't a particular breed.  If the friendly lady in line with me at the petstore tells me she has a tortie and asks what I have I say 2 brown tabbies,(even though I know tabby isn't a breed) because I don't think she cares that they are of no particular breed...she wants to know what they look like.

Yes, this is true; but we can describe cats without pretending that they really are a mix of rare breeds. (And some cats just don't resemble any breed.) I mentioned in my first post that some cats do have features that resemble those of purebreds; like many cats are long-haired like persians or pointed like siamese. Those are descriptive features that help us picture how the cat looks and they certainly can be pointed out. But to say that a cat has a unique look because it has an ancestor of a certain breed is usually inaccurate and just pretend.

It's true that there has been an adjustment in this forum, but only very recently; hence my answer to the OP who asked why so many answers have all been the same. Most of the threads have all been the same, specifically asking "What breed is my cat?"--and that is the question that has been answered. Only a few have asked how the cat looks. I'm sure with the change we'll see more questions specifically about appearance rather than breed, since it is now clearer that it's the better question to ask.

Frankly, doesn't the idea that a cat has a special, unique look because it has a purebred somewhere in its heritage undermine the argument that even moggies are special? So often, I see the appearance of beautiful moggies being attributed to some unknown purebred(s) in its blood. Can't a cat be beautiful simply because? Does it have to have some pedigreed great-great grandfather so that its unique beauty has an attributable cause? Again, it's one thing to say, "My Fluffy is spotted sort of like a Bengal." We can picture that. It's another thing to say, "My Fluffy must have some Bengal in him because he's spotted." One is descriptive, the other is pretend and detracts from the natural uniqueness and variety present in moggies.

Now, lest I sound terse or rude, please remember that tone often doesn't come across clearly when typing and it's not my intention to raise any hackles.

 

[orientalslave]

<snip>
There is a BIG difference imho, in between the two - a cat can still be a moggie, but look like a breed.
<snip>

In my experience a moggie almost NEVER looks like a breed.  I have seen an exceptions - a cat that looked pretty much like a British Shorthair.  However given I live in the UK, the British Shorthair is a natural breed from the UK that's the one breed I might reasonably expect to find a fair ringer for in moggies.  In Norway some ringers for NFCs might come along, ringers for Maine Coons in the east of the US and so on.  However I've been to a lot of cats shows, I've seen and handled a lot of pedigree cats and by a large the difference between a pedigree and a moggie is pretty obvious once you start looking properly - beyond just the colour and pattern.

What makes a pedigree cat is not just it's papers, but it's shape from heat to tail, it's pattern, it's coat texture and to a degree it's temprement.  Of course there are good and poor examples of every breed, and the results of BYB breeding muddy the waters further with all sorts of strange crosses including with moggies, but with most of the breeds I am moderately familiar with I have no problem whatsoever telling the difference. 

Also, consider which breeds are rare and which are common.  For some reason beyond me most of the people asking if their cat is like a breed X are asking about incredibly rare breeds.  Turkish Van, Chartreuse and Mau are some of the rarities that have cropped up here recently.  Chartreuse isn't recognised in the UK (too similar to the British Shorthair) but the other two both comprise less than 1% of all registrations.

Over 50% of the cats registered with the GCCF in the UK in 2011 were of just 4 breeds - British Shorthair, Ragdoll, Siamese and Maine Coon.  Add Burmese, Persian, Birman and Bengal and you are up to 75% of registrtions.  With Oriental Shorthair a tiny fraction of a percent below 80%.  9 of 35 breeds comprise 80% of all registrations, so 26 comprise 20%. 

Finally, the photos of peoples cats are sometimes sufficient only to be able to say 'its a cat'. 

 

[Willowy]

Oops, I just realized that's the number of kittens registered each year, not the total number of registered cats XD. That messes all my math up, I'll re-figure it when I have time.

 

[Anne]

I think there were some great points raised on all counts.

I'm afraid even though it's stated all over the place, some people may still need the clarification that their cat is not in fact "a Siamese" or "a Maine Coon". There's no need to hammer it in, but I don't see anything wrong with mentioning this in the first reply to a new thread, just to make sure the OP is in fact aware of this.

I think most people are focused on coat color and pattern. This gives us a good chance to educate about coat color and pattern terminology, as well as other features the OP may not be aware of, such as body form, a unique shape of the head etc.

I also think we all need to keep in mind the emotional aspect of these questions. Regardless of what information or message you're giving about the cat's appearances, it's always a good idea to do that with some compliments thrown in and in a friendly and welcoming manner (especially with first time posters). What most people are seeking isn't cold technical terms, but appreciation of the beauty of their cat.

 

[aharris]

It's because cats haven't really been domesticated to the degree that dogs have. With dogs, they've been broken down from what they were into the myriad of breeds and then re-hybridized into the plethora of mixed breeds and mutts we see today.

Cats are more or less the same little creatures that came in out of the desert to catch rats. They all have the same features without having had the same benefit of selective breeding that has created all our breeds of dogs with all their mutations. Even cats who are members of breeds still pretty much have the same physical features. With a few exceptions, most cat breeds are based around mutations of coat and other more superficial features. You don't tend to find many cat breeds that are as distinct due to selective breeding as a Chihuahua and a Chinese crested or a Great Dane.

There's nothing wrong with that, either. But it does mean that cats are going to tend to look more alike with less variability than you see in dogs. So, yeah, they look like moggies mostly except for occasional circumstances.

 

[callista]

Most moggies don't look like any particular breed, though. If you get a fluffy cat with points, a stocky body and a flattish face you can say it looks Himalayan, sure, but what do you do with a cat like Tiny, who looks like no particular breed at all, has middle-of-the-road features and a coat that's changed very little since the cat's wild ancestors, or Christy, who is a beautiful dilute calico but still doesn't have any resemblance to any breed? You can't go and just randomly throw a breed out there--not like you can with a dog, which probably did at some point have a purebred parent or two.With cats like mine, the better way to describe them is to say "domestic shorthair/longhair" and then describe their colors--brown mackerel tabby DSH for Tiny, and blue-cream tortoiseshell and white DSH for Christy.

I mean, if you can't see any breed resemblance, what are you supposed to do--pick a breed out of a hat and pretend the cat looks like that? Only a very small portion of the possible ways a cat can look have been defined as breeds. All the other possible looks for a cat are "domestic"--no breed, no lookalike.

Honestly, I like that about cats. Unlike dogs, cats are still mostly random-bred, not so much changed since their wildcat days. They are more kittenish now and trust humans more easily, and are more suited to living in human households, but they're still the hunters they were before we domesticated them. Having a cat is like having a miniature tiger on your lap--an animal that could, if it needed to, go wild again in only one or two generations. I think we'd lose that if we tried to squeeze all cats into breeds. Purebred cats are unique and pretty of course, but I'd hate for all cats to be purebred. I love the variety.

(Not to say that cats should be allowed to breed willy-nilly, of course; there are just too many of them. Kittens are great, but let's make sure they have homes waiting for them when they're born--whether they're purebred or not!)