Why are they no large cat breeds?

spotz

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Originally Posted by brianlojeck

are the kids staying pretty still? watching a presentation or something? Cats are keyed to hunt motion, and the drive is pretty hard to stop.
The instinct is not stopped or removed, that is fairly impossible, rather the instinct can be controlled through training.

The cats I deal with are well socalized [domesticated if you will], they are used to being around people, and are also well understood by those responsible for their care. We do educational programs with all three cougars, and occassionally the leopard. Generally during the presentations the kids are pretty much stationary, however when time, and more importantly the animal, allows closer interaction is permitted [only with the cougars though due to state law].

We have never in over 10 years of doing this, had any issues with the predatory instincts of these animals and children. This isn't because the animal lacks the instinct, but rather because we have such a close relationship with the animal and have worked with the animal to train them to control it.

Ultimately all you are training the animal to do is to trust you over their instincts, but it is also understood that the instinct still remains, and if stimulated enough, instinct will win. So actively monitoring the situation and controlling stimulation is necessary.

Once you get to know the animal, and you develop a trusting bond between each other, you learn to understand what stimulates the animal, and how to control the level of stimulation. Generally the simplest and most effective method is distraction, if you see the animal focusing on a particular thing, you do what it takes to prevent overstimulation. Which can range anywhere from a simple scratch behind the ear, to removing the item that is overstimulating the animal, or even removing the animal from the situation to a more comfortable location.

Originally Posted by brianlojeck

I can pet Mea, and she'll be more then happy to rub against my hand, but the instant I move my hand along the floor in her line of vision she attacks it. It's not my hand that she's attacking, it's the movement.
Not so horrible a training error with the smaller cats, however [with all due respect] an error nonetheless. It is ever so rare that training an animal that attacking[even if only playfully] our body is accecptable behavior. The instinct to play should not be suppressed or punished, but rather redirected to appropriate objects. Toys are great devices, and the correction rarely has to escalate beyond simple verbal correction.

Originally Posted by brianlojeck

With my dog, I trained her to stop biting my hand, with my cat, I have to train myself not to "set her off". Even if my dog were a 200lb mastiff, I could train it not to bite me, and the animal would be trustworthy (eventually). Do you think you could train a 75lb cat not to attack something small and rapidly moving? Could you train your 15lb housecat not to attack a ball of string?
You can never remove instinct from an animal. However you can train an animal to control an instinct. You have to house train a dog, just as you have to potty train a child, the instinct is to just go to the bathroom, however with training the dog and the child learn to control their instincts. In this example, a cats natural instinct is beneficial. The instinct to bite is inherent in all of these species, dogs and cats use their mouths for many more functions than humans do normally, but you still have to teach kids that the instinct to bite is generally a bad thing. You can teach a dog not to bite, you can teach a kid not to bite, and you can teach a cat not to bite. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other, but nevertheless it can still be done. The larger cats that I work with all understand the concept "No Bite". It's a simple concept, and just as simple to teach/reinforce, all it takes is consistency.

Originally Posted by brianlojeck

I question this. Most feral dogs will COWER in strange territory in my experience. They become dangerous when defending their "home". (I'm not an animal professional, but I do live in Compton, CA, with herds of stray dogs wandering the streets...). A feral cat, however, is always a threat.
In regards to the dog, I was thinking more along the lines of an animal that had either little to no exposure to humans. Indeed the example is rough, and greatly generalized, the bottom line though is that is strongly depends on the tempermant of both the animal and the person. Despite the flaws, I still hope that the general concept was conveyed.


There is a difference between instinct and training, instinct is an urge that comes naturally while training is a means of controlling that urge. Instincts can be controlled, but they can never be removed. Training is the key to success with animals [and even children]. With proper training, and a responsible owner, pretty much any animal can be purrfectly safe.

Spotz
 

spotz

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Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva!

Hey, did you name Faile after Perrin's wife's character in the Wheel Of Time series? If you did - brilliant!! What a great name I wish I had thought of something like that for my little girl.

They are amongst my all time favourite books ever.
OT...but GREAT Books IMO
New book coming out soon too


Spotz
 

bengalbabe

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Originally Posted by Me-n-my guys

I vaguely remember reading something about that being one of the wonders of domestic cats- no one has been able to really successfully genetically manipulate them in such a big way. You may have your variations like scottish folds, or a Sphinx, but nothing in the way of a major size variation. Despite their lives with us, cats have managed to retain some of their wildness, resisting attempts to drastically change them.
What I think would REALLY be cool is to breed a house cat with tiger markings, or any of the leopard variations, or a cheetah, or....you name it.
One breed with tiger markings is the toyger (yes it is a breed, you can do a search)
Also A breed with leopard markings is the bengal. Check out Calcatta custom made on this website http://www.calcatta.com, you will be amazed at the bengals that are now being bred!

My stud bengal threw a girl that looks like a cheetah-here's the picture:

and a girl in my new bengal litter looks just like a cheetah-that's why I call her Duma- because of that cheetah movie!
 

tuxedokitties

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I haven't read through the whole thread
so I'm sorry if someone has already said this, but I would have to say although it might sound neat at first, I don't think it would be a good idea.

some random thoughts...

Even a small housecat is an amazingly strong creature for its size - a larger cat would be extremely dangerous, especially in the hands of someone who doesn't know cat behavior inside-out & upside-down.

There are variations in cat temperament, from 100% gentle cuddlebug (and even those can claw &/or bite the **** out of you if they're frightened enough or are cornered) to unpredictably aggressive...what would happen with the cats that aren't 100% cuddlebug?

For example - one of my cats has always been a bit 'moody' - at 6 pounds, if she gets touchy & takes a sudden swipe or chomp at me I can just walk off and leave her alone until she's in the mood for affection again - but at 50-150 pounds, a sudden swipe or chomp would put me in the hospital. Another cat I used to have was 100% cuddle bug, but would give me 'love bites' - when I pet her, she would chew on my hand & purr. If I didn't let her chew on my hand when she wanted to, she would grab it with her paws and chew on it even harder. A cute quirk in a house cat, but in a big cat - uh, no thanks. And can you imagine a 150 pound cat deciding to sleep on your chest & step on your bladder, like my house cats do?


Cats & dogs usually respond differently to fear - a dog will (usually) eventually 'submit' if you can completely overpower it, while a frightened cat will fight to the point of injuring itself to get away.

Dogs have been carefully bred for temperament and to perform specific tasks for many years - cats have pretty much bred freely until fairly recently, and even now temperament usually takes a back seat to appearance in breeding.

If you take a trip to an animal shelter or talk to a rescue worker, you'll see that the majority of long-term shelter residents are large dogs - they're much harder to find homes for than small dogs, and are much more likely to be surrendered or abandoned.

It takes time, training, patience and dedication to make a large dog a safe & pleasant part of a household. A lot of people take on a large dog as a cute puppy without being aware of the commitment involved, and then abandon it once it begins to grow up and becomes destructive or unmanageable. Can we say the same wouldn't happen to large cats?

We have enough problems already with homeless cats - would we really want to create an entirely new problem?

If someone's large cat got outside, could it be guaranteed that it wouldn't 'hunt' neighborhood kids and pets? (When Mr.& Sylvestra were only 4-month-old kittens of a neighborhood stray, I saw them take down a full-grown squirrel almost as big as they were - cats are very impressive hunters.)

Large cats in the wild have HUGE territory, up to 100 miles for mountain lions (if I remember correctly) - is it humane to confine a cat that size to a home, simply for the sake of novelty?

sorry for the long ramble...just my thoughts.
 

amberthe bobcat

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Large cats in the wild have HUGE territory, up to 100 miles for mountain lions (if I remember correctly) - is it humane to confine a cat that size to a home, simply for the sake of novelty?
This information is only partially correct. Large cats in the wild need this large open space for one thing...survival. What I mean is, they need this space to hunt and for the land to provide them with food. If they were confined to a very small space in the wild, they would not survive due to the lack of food sources. Large cats in captivity live much longer healthier lives than they do in the wild. This does not mean however, that you can keep a cougar, lion or tiger, in your house. They need a good sized outdoor enclosure. Our bobcats live indoors and they can be a handful as it is. Our male is 22 pounds at 10 months old and has another 2 years to mature. He will more than likely hit close to 50 pounds. As for these large cats eating neighborhood kids, this is just false. However, if you did have a very large cat, you could not let it run around the neighborhood. Owning and caring for a large cats takes a great deal of responsibilty and the knowledge to do so.
 

spotz

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Responses between quotes, not necessarily directed at anyone in particular, but rather at the comment itself.
Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

I haven't read through the whole thread
so I'm sorry if someone has already said this, but I would have to say although it might sound neat at first, I don't think it would be a good idea.

some random thoughts...

Even a small housecat is an amazingly strong creature for its size - a larger cat would be extremely dangerous, especially in the hands of someone who doesn't know cat behavior inside-out & upside-down.
Quite true on the strength, something along the lines of 6-8x stronger per pound, if I recall correctly. These animals are extremely powerful, but so are some of the larger breeds of dog [maybe not such a huge difference but under the right circumstances still somewhat stronger]. So these animals aren't the only ones that can match/exceed our physical capabilities. Definately a reason for requiring experience, but not a reason to write them off as anything near impossible. Responsible owners, regardless of their prefered animal(s) do their best to learn about the animal and should know and be prepared to care for the animal. There is more than enough proof that the larger felids can [and do] co-exist with humans quite well, so while definately not for everyone, it is quite possible.

Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

There are variations in cat temperament, from 100% gentle cuddlebug (and even those can claw &/or bite the **** out of you if they're frightened enough or are cornered) to unpredictably aggressive...what would happen with the cats that aren't 100% cuddlebug?
For example - one of my cats has always been a bit 'moody' - at 6 pounds, if she gets touchy & takes a sudden swipe or chomp at me I can just walk off and leave her alone until she's in the mood for affection again - but at 50-150 pounds, a sudden swipe or chomp would put me in the hospital.
As with common domestics, the tempermant of these animals can vary quite drastically. A lot of the tempermant/behaviorial patterns are learned, but there is still a definate influence due to the animals individual purrsonality. The tempermant varies greatly species to species, and there are always excpetions, but from my personal experiences with these animals, and the mutual experiences of numerous private owners that I am close friends with, these animals can again make great companions. For the most part, a responsibly cared for animal rarely has totally unpredictable tempermant swings, as you get to know the animal you learn to read the signals before the situation takes a turn for the worst. You learn to differientate play from aggression, and when the animal wants attention [or not]. While they are definately capable of doing you serious harm, having a close relationship with these animals greatly lessens the likelyhood. Again, not for everyone, but nowhere near impossible either.

Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

Another cat I used to have was 100% cuddle bug, but would give me 'love bites' - when I pet her, she would chew on my hand & purr. If I didn't let her chew on my hand when she wanted to, she would grab it with her paws and chew on it even harder. A cute quirk in a house cat, but in a big cat - uh, no thanks. And can you imagine a 150 pound cat deciding to sleep on your chest & step on your bladder, like my house cats do?
The biting behavior is usually not encouragable in these animals, but there are some that are just like your former kitty. They just love to be a bit "mouthy"...all of the animals I have worked with understood the simple phrase[command if you will] "No Bite", if they got to the point of being "mouthy" usually just saying this will make them stop, and for many of them, they instead start licking you [Quite an interesting feeling I may add]. As for falling asleep on your chest, or stepping on your bladder....well those hazards have been seen as perks by some owners


For example:



Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

Cats & dogs usually respond differently to fear - a dog will (usually) eventually 'submit' if you can completely overpower it, while a frightened cat will fight to the point of injuring itself to get away.
You've pretty much covered the solution to this "problem" with your statment here. Cats generally try to get away from something they fear. Never corner the animal, and always leave yourself a way out also


Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

It takes time, training, patience and dedication to make a large dog a safe & pleasant part of a household. A lot of people take on a large dog as a cute puppy without being aware of the commitment involved, and then abandon it once it begins to grow up and becomes destructive or unmanageable. Can we say the same wouldn't happen to large cats?
Sadly, no, we can't say that the same wouldn't happen. However, as I said previously, a responsible owner has a very good idea of what they are getting into before they actually do it. Getting a large breed dog as a puppy, without planning on it becoming a large dog, is irresponsible. Abandoning the animal is never a solution, finding an animal you are uncomfortable with a good home is the responsible thing. Larger cats, are definately not an animal for everyone, and they are a HUGE commitment, not for the faint of heart. Any animal is a commitment, from a fish to a gerbil to a cat to a tiger. Each animal has different needs and requirements, each animal responds and interacts differently. Regardless of what kind of animal you want to share your life with, you must be confident of your abilities to responsibly provide for them.[/quote]

Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

We have enough problems already with homeless cats - would we really want to create an entirely new problem?
We wouldn't be creating a new problem, at least not with responsible owners. The existing problem is ultimately the sum of decades of irresponsible ownership. Owners allowing uncontrolled breeding, owners abandoning animals that they did not care for, owners not providing for their animals, owners abusing animals that they would not try to understand...etc. Not a single cause of the current problems can be tied to responsible ownership. So following the concept that these animals, or any animal for that matter, should be owner only by responsible owners, these problems would not become so prevelant.

Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

If someone's large cat got outside, could it be guaranteed that it wouldn't 'hunt' neighborhood kids and pets? (When Mr.& Sylvestra were only 4-month-old kittens of a neighborhood stray, I saw them take down a full-grown squirrel almost as big as they were - cats are very impressive hunters.)
No this could not be guaranteed, however it's an unlikely scenario, as these animals are generally quite shy and tend to avoid contact with situations they consider dangerous. Indeed the hunting instinct is strongly ingrained in these animals, the actual process of killing for food [or intentionally killing for that matter] is much more a learned process than an innate process. A responsible owner would have measures in place to prevent such an escape, simple measures really which generally only fail under the most extreme of situations, such as a natural disaster, or determined vandalism.

Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

Large cats in the wild have HUGE territory, up to 100 miles for mountain lions (if I remember correctly) - is it humane to confine a cat that size to a home, simply for the sake of novelty?
The territory thing has been addressed quite well by AmberTheBobcat.

Questioning the humanity of confining an animal to a small space is one which should apply to any animal. Surely tropical fish that normally inhabit the ocean, feel terribly confined in an incomparably small aquarium. Do domestic cats or dogs suffer from being confined to a house? The simple answer is that so long as the needs of the animal are met, then the living conditions can be considered humane.

I don't consider any pet a novelty, and I do consider anyone who sees a pet as nothing more than a novel possession to be grossly irresponsible. Any animal requires a great amount of care and dedication, there is nothing novel about this. There is nothing akin to novelty in taking responsibility to provide for the needs of another life. Pet ownership is a tremendous responsibility, the greatest IMO, more demanding than having kids ultimately, at the very least just as complex. When you take take on the responsibility of owning a pet, you are making a committment for that animals entire life. At some point virtually all kids become self-sufficient, and generally end up looking after you in the long run, pets don't typically share the same development.

Novelty is a word that should never be associated with any pet. [Unless of course you are talking about getting the pet some novelties [A lil catnip mouse for example
]

Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

sorry for the long ramble...just my thoughts.
No apology necessary, indeed many of your thoughts/concerns are quite good. You are trying to find out what owning such an animal would entail, before ever considering it to be feesible. I would expect nothing less from a responsible owner such as yourself
 

loveysmummy

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Originally Posted by valanhb

150 lb cat? Imagine the litter box!


I have an image of a back loader pulling up to my apartment full of gravel!!

And can you imagine when a 150 lb'er wants to play in the middle of the night! I said.. "GET UP NOW"....


You would have to make feather toys out of hawks and eagles...
 

loveysmummy

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Originally Posted by brianlojeck

In fact, here's a neat experiment. Take a young child to the zoo on a quiet day, and park in front of a cage holding a cougar, jaguar, or one of the smaller "great cats" that they don't give an acre to hide in like a lion or tiger. ("cat alley" at the san diego zoo is ideal if you are near there). Have the child skip or run past the cage, and watch the cat's face. There is only one thought in his little kitty brain, and if you love the child you'll be very happy those bars are there...
I have actually done this...Well, unintentionally.
When my daughter was about 6, I took her to the zoo and we stopped for a break beside the cougars.
As she was running past, the cougar (who I hadn't seen as he was crouching in the grass) ran full force against his cage at her...
It was incredible to watch...and sad that he was caged.
This is why I don't go to the zoo anymore..
 

sandtigress

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I was doing research for a big paper on cat hunting techniques, and it seems that scientists believe that the first cats to be domesticated were cats about the size of our own today. It may be that we have small housecats simply because that's the size that was adopted and most often bred, and as many have said - easiest to care for. But it also seemed that these smaller cats were the ones who accepted domestication easiest, and that the larger cats often remained manageable but wild at heart. Of course, even some of these smaller cats stayed some of the meanest animals on earth in captivity!
 

spotz

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Posting in a few, related places to get a bit more coverage.

Today, June 3rd, on ABC's 20/20 there is supposed to be an indepth segment on Animal Related orgs. Focusing on legislation, corruption, and such. If you can, tune in and see a different side of some of these organizations.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/

Spotz
 

beckiboo

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I voted no. I love my cats, and they are wonderful. But I trust my kids alone with my 70-80 lb dog. I would never trust my kids alone with the same size cat, well trained or not.
I am "pack leader" to my dog. I am "food provider" and "warm lap" to my cats. They believe they owe me nothing! I appreciate your point of view, Spotz and Amber, and my dd was impressed with the cougar pic. But though I am responsable with my pets, I will never own a large cat!
 

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by Spotz

Posting in a few, related places to get a bit more coverage.

Today, June 3rd, on ABC's 20/20 there is supposed to be an indepth segment on Animal Related orgs. Focusing on legislation, corruption, and such. If you can, tune in and see a different side of some of these organizations.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/

Spotz
I missed this show, but I heard it was pretty good. I salute ABC for putting this info on the air
 

spotz

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Originally Posted by Beckiboo

I voted no. I love my cats, and they are wonderful. But I trust my kids alone with my 70-80 lb dog. I would never trust my kids alone with the same size cat, well trained or not.
I am "pack leader" to my dog. I am "food provider" and "warm lap" to my cats. They believe they owe me nothing! I appreciate your point of view, Spotz and Amber, and my dd was impressed with the cougar pic. But though I am responsable with my pets, I will never own a large cat!
I totally respect that decision...and actually applaud your ability to make it. It definately demonstrates a level of responsibility


Spotz
 

cyberkitten

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There ARE large cat breeds - the controversial Savannah comes to mind. During the early 1980's, cat breeder Judee Frank successfully bred a male
African serval to a female domestic cat. About ten years later cat enthusiasts set out to make this hybrid cross a legitimate breed of domestic cat.

Here is a picture:
http://www.savannahcat.com/images/Ashleigh-&-Saezar.jpg

And of course if you want say a bobcat or leopard (There are pcoket leopards too of course), those are available. I think those of us who prefer smaller breeds are just not sure of our ability to cope with an exotic anaimal. They are beautiful but I will take my Siamese anyday.
 
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