What's so bad about by-products?

[gloriajh]

Originally Posted by shengmei

As a geneticist, I believe that kidney diseases are due to aging and the lack of clean water in the environment rather than substrates in the food.

Cats in wild only live about six years. Nowadays they can live well into their 20s.

Good point(s), especially about the need for quality water.

The kidneys can work better, tho', if they don't have to be over worked with trying to filter stuff they weren't made to filter.

Nutrition is tricky - like whole foods, "live" foods - foods that contain everything nature provided "naturally" - are healthier because the body is given everything that it needs to be produce health. (yep, I know this is a "blanket" statement and there are exceptions, like good genetics, etc.)

When you add stuff, cut stuff out, over process stuff, add ingredients that the animal wouldn't normally ingest - then the percentages for potential problems increase.

i.e. When a cat kills a mouse/rat - the cat leaves a lot of the rodent, I haven't seen them eat tails, claws, fur -- well you get the picture :-). This is the same as when they eat birds, they don't eat everything. This is natural. What they naturally consume is what their bodies were made to digest better.

So when our animal food makers add "by products" that our cats wouldn't normally eat, it seems to me that there should be concern -- even more so -- because they _are_ living longer.

Now, I don't think we should "lose sleep" over this issue. But, we do need to be informed, and then do the best that we can, with the resources we have, knowing that this cat, who is living with our family, is most fortunate.

 

[moggiegirl]

Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom

Like I said before, I feed the same food you do. I just wish you could provide some back-up to your argument that by-products are healthy besides simply retelling what the pet food companies have told you. I'd be interested if you could.

I like that the Iams company provides a lot of information about why and how they use certain ingredients on their website. If you want back up that does not relate to what they told me. It's in my cats. My cats have shiny, glossy coats and plenty of energy and they are healthy. I have seen plenty of cats live well into old age regardless of whether or not they eat a food that contains by-products or not. If I saw a lot of cats get sick at a young or middle age, rather than living well into their teens and sometimes early twenties and they were coincidentally eating by-products then I would distrust by-products. This is why I think by-products are simply parts of animals that people prefer not to eat rather than diseased parts. Cats cannot eat diseased parts and stay healthy. But let's keep it as I feed my cats Iams and don't believe I'm feeding a poor quality food and other people can feed Nutro or Innova or whatever brand and feel good about that.

 

[zissou'smom]

I know many cats do live long healthy lives regardless of what they're eating. Also, I'm not talking about Iams specifically, you said you feed other brands too, I'm talking about by-products in general.

There is tons of research, several books, etc, on what exactly by-products are and what is actually in cat food, which is why I'd like to see something saying otherwise. My cat is perfectly healthy for now too, but anecdotal evidence means nothing in a decision so important. Like, I know tons of people who smoke three packs a day until they die in their sleep in their 90s. I know people who eat a pound of bacon every day, but have low cholesterol and are skinny. I know people who drink every single day, and have no adverse effects. This does not lead me to believe that I should smoke three packs a day, eat a pound of bacon for breakfast, and wash it down with a sixer.

95% of american household pets eat commercial pet food, and american household pets are three times as likely as american people to get cancer. And Americans do a whole lot of things that give people cancer, so I don't take this lightly. Like I said, there aren't enough animals eating non-commercial food to do a real comparison to me. Who knows, if half of us fed food with no by-products and human-grade meat, and the other half fed standard commercial pet food, there might be a serious difference.

 

[urbantigers]

I've been reading a couple of articles today in Cat World magazine about nutrition (UK magazine). There's an article by a holistic vet, who writes a lot for the magazine, about the effect of processed, commercial pet food on health. I've only skim read it so far and will look into the studies mentioned but he seems convinced that processed cat food contributes to kidney disease and thyroid problems in cats. He refers to a study carried out by Purdue University Veterinary School in the USA - the study (published in the Journal of the American Veterninary Medical Association) looked at whether the increasing rates of hyperthyroidism in cats is simply due to ageing or whether other factors - such as nutrition - contributed. The result showed

Overall, consumption of canned food at various times throughout life and each additional year of age were associated with a greater risk of developing hyperthyroidism".

It doesn't mention what foods were involved, or whether by-products were involved, but I'm betting that it would be hard to find 169,576 cats (they looked at medical records of that number of cats) who were fed on foods that did not contain by products. I'm not saying that by products are necessarily the issue here, just that some people (the researchers, the editors of the publication and the author of the article) certainly believe that what you feed impacts on health (I'm also not sure of the extent of by products in canned food?)

Another study metioned (by Ohio veterinary school) looked at 9 cats fed a commercial cat food since weaning. Now I'm a researcher for a living and have a master degree in research methodology so I know all about the problems with small samples, but the author of this article obviously felt this study was valid. 5 of the 9 cats developed kidney disease over a 2 year period (doesn't say what age they were but mentions that the study was prompted by the fact that 10 young cats (article doesn't specify actual age) fed on this diet had been seen by the veterinary school with renal failure.

The article also mentions a study carried out by a Japanese veterinary school looking at the effects of various diets on the formation of struvite crystals, on the volume of urine produced and on the urine PH. The study showed that carbs and fibre in cat food "potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals".

Now not all of this refers to by products, of couse, but as mentioned earlier it's hard to find sufficient numbers of cats being fed a high quality commercial diet to take part in such studies so it's very likely they were being fed poorer quality foods (probably containing by products).

Sorry this is long winded - just trying to make the point that some researchers and vets, at least, are convinced that the commercial cat foods on the market (particularly those at the low end of the market which are fed to a large number of cats) are detrimental to our cats' health and a contributary factor to many chronic diseases that affect older cats.

 

[moggiegirl]

Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom

I know many cats do live long healthy lives regardless of what they're eating. Also, I'm not talking about Iams specifically, you said you feed other brands too, I'm talking about by-products in general.

There is tons of research, several books, etc, on what exactly by-products are and what is actually in cat food, which is why I'd like to see something saying otherwise. My cat is perfectly healthy for now too, but anecdotal evidence means nothing in a decision so important. Like, I know tons of people who smoke three packs a day until they die in their sleep in their 90s. I know people who eat a pound of bacon every day, but have low cholesterol and are skinny. I know people who drink every single day, and have no adverse effects. This does not lead me to believe that I should smoke three packs a day, eat a pound of bacon for breakfast, and wash it down with a sixer.

95% of american household pets eat commercial pet food, and american household pets are three times as likely as american people to get cancer. And Americans do a whole lot of things that give people cancer, so I don't take this lightly. Like I said, there aren't enough animals eating non-commercial food to do a real comparison to me. Who knows, if half of us fed food with no by-products and human-grade meat, and the other half fed standard commercial pet food, there might be a serious difference.

Do you really know "tons" of people who smoke three packs a day until they die in their sleep in their 90's? I doubt there are "tons" of them, I think those are fewer and further in between. I'm also willing to bet that cigarrettes are far more toxic to humans than commercial cat food is to cats. Anybody can take a study and say something. When we get old and when our cats get old eventually something is going to happen. We can't make ourselves or our cats live forever. And is it necessarily the food that causes certain health problems? I don't know. Maybe someday someone will conduct a study in which so many cats eat Purina and so many cats eat Natural Balance and see what percentage of cats live longer on what brand. So far there seems to be no proof that a cat will live longer on Innova than on Purina or Iams or whatever example food you might come up with. But I'm not going to worry myself to death about my cats getting kidney disease. Chances are if they're going to get it there is not a thing I can do to prevent it. Hyperthyroidism? Do the majority of cats eating canned food get it? How many out of 100 or 500 cats get hyperthyroidism. Does anyone know? Either way the alternative, which is not feeding my cats canned food wouldn't do my cats any good. They need the hydration, extra protein and reduced level of carbs.

When I read the label and nutrient analysis of Nutro compared to Iams for example, I choose Iams over Nutro on dry food because the Iams has more animal based protein and the Nutro has chicken and corn gluten making up the 30% protein. That makes the meat content in the food actually quite small and the carb content is higher in this food. Yet, many people consider this food superior to a food that has 35% animal based protein just because part of that protein is chicken by-product meal, which I consider to be just another part of the chicken itself, if you consider by-products to possibly be diseased meat, then how do you know the muscle meat is not diseased?

Anyway, I do have standards for feeding my cats. Petco is the most convenient place where I can buy my cats food. That's walking distance from my house. Being on public transportation I would have to take 2 buses on the weekends (I work during the week) which run only once an hour to buy a food like Innova and California Natural, which I tend to question anyway for the absence of organ meat and ground bone, natural sources of vitamins and minerals. I do not feed Friskies, 9 lives, generic brands like Safeway, Special Kitty or any of that cheap stuff. I don't even feed Fancy Feast except as a rare treat. For dry I feed the Iams multi-cat. I chose that for it's high protein content without being too high in calories or carbs compared to other dry foods. For canned I feed the new Iams pate formulas which don't have any by-products, like the old ones do. Rosie hates canned Natural Balance but I feed it to Spotty sometimes, I buy PetGold which Rosie loves(no by-products), Canned Nutro my cats are not too crazy about, they get the occasional treat of canned Purina Pro-plan. For treats and flavor enhancers, I spend money. I buy freeze dried meat treats on line and I crumble bits of that stuff into their dry food, there, I just boosted the quality of their dry food a bit. So it's not like I buy the cheapest, lowest quality food on the market. The by-producty stuff is well balanced with the more expensive cuts of meat, the muscle meat. So I think overall they're getting a well rounded diet with a variety of meats and ingredients. I personally don't believe my cats are eating diseased cancerous tissues or garbage. They have shiny glossy coats and they are healthy.

I think it's important to feed variety. By-products should never be the only source of animal based protein in a cat's food. It should be balanced with higher quality cuts of meat, just as cats should not eat just dry food or just Fancy Feast. My aunt's cats and my grandparents cats ate standard commercial cat food. They also got table scraps like fresh chicken, sometimes they got raw organ meats like kidney and liver or lamb hearts, fresh from the grocery store. But although they got plenty of foods like Fancy Feast and Sheba, dry foods containing by-products they got a variety of stuff, dry, canned, different brands and different sources of food. Almost all of these cats lived well into their late teens and some siamese lived into their early 20s. Felix died at age 10 because he was obese and that led to health problems. I have just seen so many cats do just fine on standard cat foods. And I think if all these by-products(and it was at least a good portion of their diet) were full of garbage or as toxic as many people believe, this would not have happened.

 

[gloriajh]

Originally Posted by shengmei

Petsmart has both Nutro and Purina One in large bags.

Many feed stores have food in 40 pound bags.

The bigger the bags are, the cheaper the food would be.

AAFCO had been updating definitions for byproducts since the Mad Cow scares of 2003 to 2004. I seriously believe byproducts are better than what they are used to be.

Well, it's been interesting, but an impasse needs to be called.

Gloria

 

[vanillasugar]

I guess I'm just not the kind of person who believes anything most companies have to say. Everything I've read leads me to believe that by-products are not good. For SEVERAL reasons. Infact, this is exactly why I don't feed commercial food. Because you can NOT guarantee that what you're being told is in the product is actually what IS going into the product. Granted there are several companies that are doing better than others, but I don't believe Iams (a division of Proctor and Gamble, by the way, who I have all kinds of other problems with) is one of them.

Moggiegirl, you're doing a great thing by feeding your cats such a varied diet. The amount of by-products they actually injest sounds like a very small amount. My beef is not with you, and the way you feed your cats. As they're your cats and you can feed them however you'd like! I don't want you to think that at all. My problem is with companies who put sub-par ingredients (which will sustain life but are not health promoting) in their food, and then lie to their customers about it, through marketing or otherwise, to make them believe that theirs is a superior product. There are people who feed lower quality foods exclusivley, because they think they are good foods. THIS is what I have a problem with. People are being decieved. By-products are not good and I highly doubt they ever will be, but you obviously don't believe this, which means someone out there has done their job very well in convincing you of that. I on the other hand, will need to see some hard evidence to change my mind.

 

[moggiegirl]

The problem with by-products is just that you don't really know what's gone into them. It potentially *may* not be all that bad, but it could also be very VERY bad and icky stuff. It's very poor in terms of nutritional value. Any meat that's been turned into a by-product must be rendered, and must also be denatured to prevent it from coming back into the human food chain. Denaturing is often done with carbolic acid or charcoal

Also, any meat from the "four D's" can end up in by-products (dead, dying, down or diseased animals). Basically, steer clear!

Okay, the denaturing process would concern me if it's true. But I need proof and not just something that a website like the API will say. Because I've read that website, "What's really in pet food?" many times and while they are saying these things, they're not actually proving them to be true. Do you have proof? And do by-products necessarily have to be denatured? Can't they just put them in a separate bin or storage compartment or something like that? I sent an e-mail to the pet food institute about this. I want them to tell me if it's true.

According to this website, pet food does have to be safe for pets to eat, by-products or not.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2001/301_pet.html

 

[zissou'smom]

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html

I don't believe everything I read either, but the articles in that link provide some food for thought. I do not believe that there are euthanized pets in pet food-- there was another study somewhere else that proved the sodium pentobarbitol found in pet food may come from numerous other sources, and supposedly the dead pets / roadkill / wildlife part of the rendering plants are separate.

I think that pet food companies may have the best of intentions, but many of them buy their meat and meat by-products from somewhere else, and they have little control over what happens there. Which means Iams or Purina or Friskies or 9lives or any other pet food may be unaware of what is in the by-products. They shouldn't be, but that is the nature of conglomerate, mass capitalism. So even if you do trust the company carte-blanche, that doesn't mean you have to trust the by-products.

The pet food companies do not own chicken farms and cattle ranches, own the plants butchering them, and the shipping companies used to bring the meat. Thusly, they cannot be 100% sure what exactly is in their by-product.

Denaturing is true, and they have to do it if they are using meat not human-grade. Which most don't. Please realize that almost everything in most commercial pet foods is pre-consumer recycling of the leftovers of making food for humans. This is why many huge corps have pet food divisions. If you make food for humans, you have all this stuff left over, which you can package in pet food and sell rather than throwing away. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with that inherently, such as corn gluten left from making other corn products from humans, if done correctly.