Vets vs. raw feeding

[crackers]

Yesterday I went to the vet to get my cat more food.  Still the Iams Senior chicken pouches.  But I refused to buy Eukanuba Intestinals and insisted they have me alterate samples.  So I was given Eukanuba Adult Rich in Chicken with Liver.  She's still finishing her Eukanuba Intestinals but I suppose I should be mixing these to see if she will adapt.

Still unhappy about the loss of my cats, I engaged in conversation with the vet's son.  The Saying, "out of themouths of babes" applies here.  I told him I was on a website dedicated to cats that encouraged raw feeding.  His eyes got big and the usual warnings were given.  "Bones shatter, you can't feed your cat raw meat..."  I retorted that this site said only cooked chicken bones shattered.  So more warnings were uttered.

Your experiences....

 

[peachesxo]

My vet, who is awesome, does conventional and holistic medicine and recommends feeding cats raw. I just recently found out about it from him (and this site) and am probably going to try it out soon, turns out there is a store quite close by that specializes in it as well.

Maybe you could try to find a new vet who has a more holistic approach to feeding and medicine?

 

[Willowy]

Well, in order to argue the subject intelligently, it's important to realize that every single thing in life has risks. So arguing that feeding raw is perfectly safe will just make you look silly. Could your cat end up sick or dead from some aspect of eating raw food? Yep. Could your cat end up sick or dead from some aspect of eating processed food? Yep. The only difference is which risks you think are lower, which risks you're more comfortable with, and what benefits you're looking for. But, yeah, everything in life requires a decision based on a risk/benefit analysis, and nothing is perfectly safe.

Personally, for me, considering all the recent cases of pet food contamination, which is only likely to get worse considering what they're making pet food out of nowadays. . .I don't think kibble is the safer choice at this point :tongue2:.

 

[txcatmom]

The only difference is which risks you think are lower, which risks you're more comfortable with, and what benefits you're looking for.

This is a good way of looking at it.  Thanks for that.  We use two different vets and neither will be supportive of raw, so I'm not looking forward to the conversation when it comes up. 

 

[mschauer]

Well, in order to argue the subject intelligently, it's important to realize that every single thing in life has risks. So arguing that feeding raw is perfectly safe will just make you look silly. Could your cat end up sick or dead from some aspect of eating raw food? Yep. Could your cat end up sick or dead from some aspect of eating processed food? Yep. The only difference is which risks you think are lower, which risks you're more comfortable with, and what benefits you're looking for. But, yeah, everything in life requires a decision based on a risk/benefit analysis, and nothing is perfectly safe.

 That's a great summary of what I think also. What ever the possible risks of feeding a homemade pet food (raw or otherwise) can mostly be minimized by proper education. The remaining risks are easily offset by the benefits. In my view, all things considered, feeding a homemade diet, done properly, is safer than feeding a commercial processed diet.

 

[ldg]

Excellent, Willowy! :bigthumb:

 

[tobytyler]

This is a good way of looking at it.  Thanks for that.  We use two different vets and neither will be supportive of raw, so I'm not looking forward to the conversation when it comes up. 

I also wondered if I would even tell my vet.  I have two, the main one is the owner of the clinic,  It's in a small mountain community.  I know just from having him as a vet for several years that he would read me the riot act if I told him I was feeding raw. 

Another vet from Denver comes up every couple of weeks. He sees far more things in practice as a traveling vet.  I try to use him as my primary vet.  I recently brought up the feeding raw subject.  I approached it by saying I had done a lot of research on raw food diet, have started to feed my cats a raw commercial diet, and I told him I hoped he supported me in my decision.

He started by telling me about some of the major (US) vet organizations who have taken a negative stand on raw feeding.  Because of that, he told me he couldn't outright recommend it.  He expressed concern over feeding a home made raw, only because of the importance of having the required balance.  He said we might want to check for parasites at some point.

The interesting thing was, I asked him if he say better health in the raw diet animals he sees.  He replied that he didn't see so much an improvement in health, but what he did see in all the raw fed animals was significantly healthier teeth and gums!  To which I did reply "there you go".  Isn't teeth and gum health a cornerstone of overall health?

He told me he was glad I told him what I was doing and he would support me. 

 

[ldg]

Interestingly, problems with teeth and gums are one of the few things being linked to long term problems like CRF.

I have mixed feelings on not telling vets the diet we feed. In a small community, where you don't have a choice of vets, I can see using that approach. I mean - when you see a vet, how many of them ask, "what are you feeding your cat?" Yet DIET is the cornerstone of health. When we saw the holistic vet for our first visit, the very first question she asked is, "what do you feed your cats?"

...and FYI, according to the AVMA's policy on feeding raw, the concern as re: feeding raw was risk TO THE HUMANS, not the animals. Your traveling vet may want to take a look at the actual policy statements.... (And, FYI, there have been no documented cases of humans contracting anything from feeding a raw diet, where there have been 142 documented cases of humans contracting illness from feeding kibble to their cats).

 

[crackers]

 (And, FYI, there have been no documented cases of humans contracting anything from feeding a raw diet, where there have been 142 documented cases of humans contracting illness from feeding kibble to their cats).

Thanks for making me laugh.  I haven't done that in over a week

 

[carolina]

In re. to the AVMA policy, it doesn't prohibit vets from recommending raw, so what your vet said Toby Tyler, is actually kind of strange. He can recommend raw, it is his choice - he might not feel comfortable in doing so, but he is not, in any way shape of form, prohibited to do so. The AVMA has an official stance, which he can abide to by bringing it up to your attention advising you of the risks to you and your family (that is what the policy is), or if he chooses, not even mention it at all. Frankly, my vets didn't - it was business as usual. Recommending raw is not prohibited and raw is not a banned diet, if that was the case holistic vets would be in trouble. The holistic vet I go to has books on raw, feeds his animals raw, and of course that's the diet he recommends to his patients. He only sells raw at the clinic, and dehydrated raw.
My regular vet didn't change anything at all after this policy - he still recommends I continue to feed all my cats a raw diet. I think your vet needs to take a better look at the policy..... it looks like....

I do think that one of the most important things in pet's health is the diet, and it is quite relevant to its medical charts. When the cat is having diarrhea, chronic urinary issues, diabetes, strange blood values.... a lot can be traced back to the diet. I don't see how a comprehensive vet care can be given to that pet without addressing diet. I never been to a consult where that hasn't been discussed...... but then, I discuss EVERYTHING - that's just how I am, I guess :dk:

Bottom line is, if the vet is not willing to work with me and my pets, I don't feel comfortable working with that vet.
I do believe that we need to stick to our guns, let them know we feed raw, and the changes in their health will speak for themselves. My vet is astonished at the changes on my cats health. Because of raw, he used to see Bugsy twice a month, sometimes more, have emergency calls..... and now Bugsy is back on once a year visits and meds free. That speaks volumes. He couldn't in his sound mind ever tell me to go back to a diet that was making Bugsy so sick, when raw has been amazing for him - and he has seen it. Things like these don't need to be argued - they are proven in the charts. The cat is the proof, and it simply can't be denied.

 

[tobytyler]

. That speaks volumes. He couldn't in his sound mind ever tell me to go back to a diet that was making Bugsy so sick, when raw has been amazing for him - and he has seen it. Things like these don't need to be argued - they are proven in the charts. The cat is the proof, and it simply can't be denied.

That's what I was thinking, he will see the difference in my cats.  I have not read the policy but I will before our next appointment Monday for Rufus and we will address it.  I think he is already going to see a change after only 2 weeks.  At least this vet has an open mind, it seems.  The owner of the clinic would just argue about pathogens, I know him too well.  Travelling vet also mentioned that he believed the American Feline Veterinary Association has come out against raw, but he wasn't sure.   What is the policy there?

It is interesting that most of the traditional vets offices sell Science Diet and Royal Canin.  I know some of these are prescription, but they sell the everyday kibble and canned as well.

 

[ritz]

My former vet wasn't real supportive of my feeding raw.  He didn't like Ritz' teeth either (gingivitus and dental cleaning at age 2).  Eight months after starting to feed Ritz raw, she went back for her wellness checkup and rabies shot.  I asked him how Ritz' teeth were--fine, great, he replied.  I said, thank goodness for bones.  Then he remarked how silky soft Ritz' fur was, and I said, must be that raw food.  Attraction, not promotion.

My current vet (I moved recently) upon looking at Ritz' blood work said "a pH of 7 is a little high" for a cat who is fed raw.  So, he knows enough about raw feeding to know that.  I haven't asked him point blank what his position is on Raw feeding, but I think Ritz will be the best witness for the case of raw feeding.

 

[ldg]

That's what I was thinking, he will see the difference in my cats.  I have not read the policy but I will before our next appointment Monday for Rufus and we will address it.  I think he is already going to see a change after only 2 weeks.  At least this vet has an open mind, it seems.  The owner of the clinic would just argue about pathogens, I know him too well.  Travelling vet also mentioned that he believed the American Feline Veterinary Association has come out against raw, but he wasn't sure.   What is the policy there?

It is interesting that most of the traditional vets offices sell Science Diet and Royal Canin.  I know some of these are prescription, but they sell the everyday kibble and canned as well.

Here is a link to our discussion of the policy (proposed at the time). My letter to the AVMA is in there. Unfortunately, since then the AVMA updated their site, so some of the links may not work. I'll pop by later to see.if I can post correct links. But this may help you understand what was going on.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/246595/avma-to-vote-to-take-a-stand-against-raw-feeding

 

[mschauer]

That's what I was thinking, he will see the difference in my cats.  I have not read the policy but I will before our next appointment Monday for Rufus and we will address it.  I think he is already going to see a change after only 2 weeks.  At least this vet has an open mind, it seems.  The owner of the clinic would just argue about pathogens, I know him too well.  Travelling vet also mentioned that he believed the American Feline Veterinary Association has come out against raw, but he wasn't sure.   What is the policy there?

If he meant the American Association of Feline Practitioners, it is just a professional association. Kinda like a club. In other words it, like the AVMA,  has no authority over veterinarians. They make recommendations on what, as a group, they think vets should do but they can't sanction or pull the licenses of vets if they don't follow the recommendations.

I believe it is only the veterinary medical board of the state where the vet is licensed that has any real authority over what a vet does.

 

[tobytyler]

If he meant the American Association of Feline Practitioners, it is just a professional association. Kinda like a club. In other words it, like the AVMA,  has no authority over veterinarians. They make recommendations on what, as a group, they think vets should do but they can't sanction or pull the licenses of vets if they don't follow the recommendations.

I believe it is only the veterinary medical board of the state where the vet is licensed that has any real authority over what a vet does.

Yes, I believe that is the correct org.  it was a rather brief phone discussion when he called to give me Rufus' test results and I told him about the raw feeding at the end of the conversation.  I get the feeling it's an education thing more than anything, based on my vets comments. Many of these vets still don't see a lot of cat owners especially feeding raw. 

I remember seeing the AVMA information in the news, before I joined TCS.  All I read was the headline that were against raw feeding. Honestly, based on that, my mind was made up against raw!  Thank goodness I found TCS and learned more about raw and made the switch.

I am just glad this vet said he would support me.  It's impractical for my cat's sakes to take them on a long trip to see the vet, and this one is only about 8 miles away.  Hopefully my guys won't have to be going to the vet too often anymore.  I will say this vet knows how dedicated I am to my cats and will do everything to improve their health, hopefully that will buy some credibility as well. 

We will be having this discussion when I see him Monday.

 

[ldg]

I remember seeing the AVMA information in the news, before I joined TCS.  All I read was the headline that were against raw feeding. Honestly, based on that, my mind was made up against raw!  Thank goodness I found TCS and learned more about raw and made the switch.

...which is REALLY sad, because the AVMA policy isn't technically anti-raw feeding. They basically say it's because of concern for humans - and they recommend all raw be treated with high pressure processing to make it sterile before being fed. (e.g. Nature's Variety, Stella & Chewy's, and some of the Primal).

 

[tobytyler]

In re. to the AVMA policy, it doesn't prohibit vets from recommending raw, so what your vet said Toby Tyler, is actually kind of strange. He can recommend raw, it is his choice - he might not feel comfortable in doing so, but he is not, in any way shape of form, prohibited to do so. The AVMA has an official stance, which he can abide to by bringing it up to your attention advising you of the risks to you and your family (that is what the policy is), or if he chooses, not even mention it at all.

"The AVMA recognizes that some people prefer to feed raw or undercooked animal-source protein to their pets. The AVMA recommends that veterinarians inform pet owners of potential risks and educate them on how to best mitigate the risk of pathogen exposure in both handling the food and in managing pets consuming undercooked or raw animal-source protein diets."

This was taken directly from the policy adopted by the AMVA, so I don't see anything strange about what the vet told me.  He was simply following the AVMA guidelines and he did exactly what the policy stated.

I had this discussion with the vet yesterday during Rufus' and Clancy's re-check on a finally resolved viral infection(s).  He actually brought it up and asked how the raw feeding was going and if I was still using a commercially prepared diet..  He again stressed the importance of using commercial (because of the correct nutrient balance) and said he would support me in that choice.  I did bring up the fact that the AMVA stand was based on human exposure to pathogens and he correctly informed me it was both human and animal exposure that was the concern.

What was the most interesting thing about the whole visit is, although Rufus has been on antibiotics, vet said his gums had "improved 80%".  He honestly kept going on and on about how well they were both doing.  The vet tech kept remarking on Rufus' soft coat and Clancy's shiny fur.  The vet even told me Rufus 'made his day'.  I could tell by the expression on his face that he actually meant this.  I'm sure he attributes a lot of this to the antibiotics.  (Keep in mind the vet was comfortable with a suspected herpes virus, which turned out to not be herpes but three other viral/bacterial infections that had not responded to treatment).

And, while I was settling the bill with the receptionist, Vet poked his head out once again and said how amazing they were both doing and what I good job I had done and how happy he was. So in this case we will continue to use baby steps for him to see the benefits.

PS. sorry about the font size, I couldn't get it to smaller after cutting and pasting the AMVA statement.

 

[carolina]

He started by telling me about some of the major (US) vet organizations who have taken a negative stand on raw feeding.  Because of that, he told me he couldn't outright recommend it. 

"The AVMA recognizes that some people prefer to feed raw or undercooked animal-source protein to their pets. The AVMA recommends that veterinarians inform pet owners of potential risks and educate them on how to best mitigate the risk of pathogen exposure in both handling the food and in managing pets consuming undercooked or raw animal-source protein diets."

This was taken directly from the policy adopted by the AMVA, so I don't see anything strange about what the vet told me.  He was simply following the AVMA guidelines and he did exactly what the policy stated.
SIZE]

Notice the difference in between what he said to you and the actual policy from AVMA?
The AVMA doesn't prohibit him from recommending raw - it is his choice to do so - he can recommend raw to you anytime, if he feels like. He is a vet, and if he feels it is the right diet for the pet, he recommends if he choses so.
The AVMA recommends the vets to inform the owners of the potential risk of the diet and how to prevent them with proper safe handling. The policy states that he simply informes you of the risks (TO YOUR health) - but he can, he is not prohibited to recommend the diet. This is not a ban.

 

[tobytyler]

 


Notice the difference in between what he said to you and the actual policy from AVMA?
The AVMA doesn't prohibit him from recommending raw - it is his choice to do so - he can recommend raw to you anytime, if he feels like. He is a vet, and if he feels it is the right diet for the pet, he recommends if he choses so.
The AVMA recommends the vets to inform the owners of the potential risk of the diet and how to prevent them with proper safe handling. The policy states that he simply informes you of the risks (TO YOUR health) - but he can, he is not prohibited to recommend the diet. This is not a ban.

Oh no, I hope I never conveyed that, sorry if I did.  Saying he couldn't outright recommend it I believe is probably his own personal choice, which he voiced, and then he repeated the AVMA statement (which probably made him feel better about stating his personal choice).  He also mentioned that he thought the AAFP had adopted a similar stance, but he wasn't positive.

He actually is supporting me in this (provided I feed commerical - and I haven't ruled out home made and probably wouldn't reveal that to him if I did) which I am thrilled about.  Honestly, he probably sees maybe a few people down in Denver feeding raw, my guess is these are mostly dogs.  Hey, at least he is open minded and keen enough to notice a difference and I do believe he ultimately wants my cats to be as healty as I do. 

 

[ldg]

I'm really glad he's turned out to be supportive!