Vet advising against raw meat diet supplement, fears E. Coli

[sharky]

Originally Posted by Cat_crazy

When your vet says something like this it's because they don't know what the heck they are talking about. Vets don't get trained in the area of nutrition very well. What little training they do get is mostly from representatives from companies such as Iam's and Purina.
I will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, take a vet seriously who tells me anything of the sort like that.
Yeah, humans can't eat raw meat and can't handle things like E. Coli and bacteria because they weren't designed to eat it raw (and some might argue whether we were designed to eat meat at all). Cats' stomach acids are very strong, much stronger than humans and can easily kill bacteria and such and it is perfectly safe for them to eat raw. Anyone who argues otherwise doesn't know what THEY are talking about either. Everyone is so worried about getting the right balance etc. when they don't need to be so obsessed and paranoid over it! So many pets today have so many health problems vets weren't seeing before commercial junk came about. I hate commercial food. Even the so called "better" kibbles and canned foods. They aren't better because they are still processed, you still can't be 100% sure what is in them and they are not the diet a cat or dog should be eating. Period. I wish commercial pet food would go away and never come back. It's for human convenience and because people have been so brain-washed by the advertising that anything else is not nutritionally complete.

Bottom line is that raw is best, always will be best, is relatively simple to feed and is often cheaper then feeding the "better" commercial foods.

*steps off of soap box*

Many would take your soap box more to heart if your info was correct... you have bits and pieces that are but I see glaring inaccuracies that anyone with basic animal nutrition knowledge knows

 

[cococat]

Originally Posted by Cat_crazy

I hate commercial food.

Oh come on. Cats and dogs are obviously are meant to be eating dry small little processed hard cracker like nuggets. They have even come out with foods like this for reptiles. I mean, these animals, just look at their ancestors, this is their birthright and what they do best on said the dog food reps at the pet store. We are also meant to be eating genetically modified corn and soy and lots of processed food, if it is laced with chemicals derived in a laboratory that is even better because these people are scientists, the commercials on TV tell me so. I trust cows more than chemists, but wait, we can trust corporations and companies to look out for our well being, and also our pets well being, and the easy way is always the right way, so convenient, no hassle. Most people eat processed food and also feed it to their pets, and if everyone is doing it, that makes it OK!
Don't see what the big deal is...

 

[cat_crazy]

Originally Posted by sharky

Many would take your soap box more to heart if your info was correct... you have bits and pieces that are but I see glaring inaccuracies that anyone with basic animal nutrition knowledge knows

Which inaccuracies?
I've been to every website imaginable in regards to raw feeding both for and against it. I've read so much about it and I'm sick of seeing so many people being obsessed over it that they make it so overcomplicated and are so worried about the bacteria etc.

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by Cat_crazy

Which inaccuracies?
I've been to every website imaginable in regards to raw feeding both for and against it. I've read so much about it and I'm sick of seeing so many people being obsessed over it that they make it so overcomplicated and are so worried about the bacteria etc.

I am curious about your method... You make it sound so simple, and to make a raw diet well balanced, to avoid problems in the long run, is certainly not a simple thing.

So can you please describe to us what your method is?
What do you feed your cats? What is their "menu" per se?

 

[missymotus]

Originally Posted by Cat_crazy

Which inaccuracies?
I've been to every website imaginable in regards to raw feeding both for and against it. I've read so much about it and I'm sick of seeing so many people being obsessed over it that they make it so overcomplicated and are so worried about the bacteria etc.

You won't find too many raw supporters here, there are some but even more against. I don't usually waste my time posting about diet anymore.

Originally Posted by Carolina

You make it sound so simple, and to make a raw diet well balanced, to avoid problems in the long run, is certainly not a simple thing.

I've never found it difficult, it's always been very simple for me to feed raw. It's not rocket science

 

[carolina]

Originally Posted by missymotus

I've never found it difficult, it's always been very simple for me to feed raw. It's not rocket science

I am sure it is not rocket science

. I asked how to do it properly balanced, to post an example of her menu, since she makes it appear so easy. Cats at different age groups have different nutritional needs. To not run into trouble in the long run, it is not so simple to achieve a well balance raw diet. It is not for everybody. It takes studying, it takes a good vet supporting it IMHO. Certainly not as easy as throwing some raw pieces of chicken one day, beef on the other, as some beginners reading some of these posts might get the impression. Since you feed raw, you gotta know it gets way deeper than that. Are you going to feed the same calcium amounts for a kitten than you are going to a senior cat for example? These things are relevant. Maybe not in the short run, but in long terms you might end up with a sick cat. Calcium is just one example.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by Carolina

I am sure it is not rocket science

. I asked how to do it properly balanced, to post an example of her menu, since she makes it appear so easy. Cats at different age groups have different nutritional needs. To not run into trouble in the long run, it is not so simple to achieve a well balance raw diet. It is not for everybody. It takes studying, it takes a good vet supporting it IMHO. Certainly not as easy as throwing some raw pieces of chicken one day, beef on the other, as some beginners reading some of these posts might get the impression. Since you feed raw, you gotta know it gets way deeper than that. Are you going to feed the same calcium amounts for a kitten than you are going to a senior cat for example? These things are relevant. Maybe not in the short run, but in long terms you might end up with a sick cat. Calcium is just one example.

.......

 

[kai bengals]

For those who would like to know the "how to's" and want it to come from and be supported by a vet. I would suggest buying a copy of Dr Picairn's complete guide to natural health for dogs and cats.

 

[strange_wings]

Originally Posted by missymotus

You won't find too many raw supporters here, there are some but even more against.

Again, it's not that I'm against it - more that I have a low opinion of the intelligence of the human population in general. Many people can't even manage a healthy diet for themselves and their children - they live off of premade foods because they don't know how to even cook. Many aren't even responsible enough to take their cat or dog to the vet, let along spay and neuter.
If everyone tried feeding their pets raw the results would be disastrous.

While kibble isn't natural the majority of the population just isn't smart enough to handle more.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Again, it's not that I'm against it - more that I have a low opinion of the intelligence of the human population in general. Many people can't even manage a healthy diet for themselves and their children - they live off of premade foods because they don't know how to even cook. Many aren't even responsible enough to take their cat or dog to the vet, let along spay and neuter.
If everyone tried feeding their pets raw the results would be disastrous.

While kibble isn't natural the majority of the population just isn't smart enough to handle more.

My feelings on the subject, exactly

 

[cat_crazy]

Originally Posted by Carolina

I am curious about your method... You make it sound so simple, and to make a raw diet well balanced, to avoid problems in the long run, is certainly not a simple thing.

So can you please describe to us what your method is?
What do you feed your cats? What is their "menu" per se?

I'm not saying it's as simple as 1-2-3. I am saying that it is simple once you learn the basics and how to feed it.

My two favorite websites on the subject are these:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

http://www.rawfedcats.org


I am currently still feeding them dry and canned as I am trying to switch them over to raw, but they are proving finicky.

The ratio should be about 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ meat. I know many people think they have to try and balance this out over the course of a week which is when things start to get complicated. If you feed muscle meat and muscle meat with bone in it every so often as the majority of the diet and add in organ meat two-three times a week it will balance itself out over the course of time. The key is variety.

Originally Posted by missymotus

You won't find too many raw supporters here, there are some but even more against. I don't usually waste my time posting about diet anymore.



I've never found it difficult, it's always been very simple for me to feed raw. It's not rocket science

I figured that out pretty soon.

Originally Posted by Carolina

I am sure it is not rocket science

. I asked how to do it properly balanced, to post an example of her menu, since she makes it appear so easy. Cats at different age groups have different nutritional needs. To not run into trouble in the long run, it is not so simple to achieve a well balance raw diet. It is not for everybody. It takes studying, it takes a good vet supporting it IMHO. Certainly not as easy as throwing some raw pieces of chicken one day, beef on the other, as some beginners reading some of these posts might get the impression. Since you feed raw, you gotta know it gets way deeper than that. Are you going to feed the same calcium amounts for a kitten than you are going to a senior cat for example? These things are relevant. Maybe not in the short run, but in long terms you might end up with a sick cat. Calcium is just one example.

I never said it was as easy as throwing in chicken one day and beef the next, did I?
You're right. It's NOT for everybody. Many people don't have a clue about nutrition. Which is why people who do know about it need to EDUCATE them.

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Again, it's not that I'm against it - more that I have a low opinion of the intelligence of the human population in general. Many people can't even manage a healthy diet for themselves and their children - they live off of premade foods because they don't know how to even cook. Many aren't even responsible enough to take their cat or dog to the vet, let along spay and neuter.
If everyone tried feeding their pets raw the results would be disastrous.

While kibble isn't natural the majority of the population just isn't smart enough to handle more.

I don't trust the general population either. Funny you mention this, because I am intrigued with nutrition. I DO know how to properly feed myself. I have researched this and my mom knows a ton about this as well. I don't eat premade junk or eat fast food very often. Maybe a few times a year. My mom has always always had us eating healthy and has taught me how to eat healthily and to her I am very grateful. As I got older I became very intersted in proper healthy diet for animals too.

Which is why the general population needs to be educated about it. How are they going to be educated if you never try to help them learn? And scare them away by making it sounds so very hard to do?

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

For those who would like to know the "how to's" and want it to come from and be supported by a vet. I would suggest buying a copy of Dr Picairn's complete guide to natural health for dogs and cats.

That is a very good beginning guide and a wonderful one to open lines of communication for a raw diet with the cats actual vet. No book is a substitute for a discussion with the cats primary medical care provider.

 

[sharky]

The web is filled with "experts", most of which are snake oil salesman..See any of us can throw up a website and type something.. If you get the majority of info online it is going to be wrong roughly 60-75% of the time.. There are a few sites by respected vets that cover raw diets ... Your formula is the most basic and that is a good on but that diet is still going to be missing many many things that kitty needs. You would be surprised to know the numbers on here that feed raw with kibble( not something I agree with but it is working for them) ....

 

[strange_wings]

^Raw + kibble? Wouldn't the digestion times on that be pretty different? (I don't know that much, it just sounds bad) Raw + canned would make more sense.

Originally Posted by Cat_crazy

Which is why the general population needs to be educated about it. How are they going to be educated if you never try to help them learn? And scare them away by making it sounds so very hard to do?

I agree that people need more education, just not from websites in this case.
But would most people really put that much effort into something that's "just a cat"? Most don't even want to learn or spend more money - they're happy feeding MeowMix.

 

[cat_crazy]

Originally Posted by sharky

The web is filled with "experts", most of which are snake oil salesman..See any of us can throw up a website and type something.. If you get the majority of info online it is going to be wrong roughly 60-75% of the time.. There are a few sites by respected vets that cover raw diets ... Your formula is the most basic and that is a good on but that diet is still going to be missing many many things that kitty needs. You would be surprised to know the numbers on here that feed raw with kibble( not something I agree with but it is working for them) ....

Such as? I really genuinely do want to know because I personally know at least two people who have fed their cats like this for the cats entire life and never had any health problems, were extremely healthy and lived a long life.

 

[cat_crazy]

Originally Posted by strange_wings

^Raw + kibble? Wouldn't the digestion times on that be pretty different? (I don't know that much, it just sounds bad) Raw + canned would make more sense.

I agree that people need more education, just not from websites in this case.
But would most people really put that much effort into something that's "just a cat"? Most don't even want to learn or spend more money - they're happy feeding MeowMix.

I think raw+kibble is a bad idea. Different digestion rates would really mess the cats digestion up.
Raw+canned would make a lot more sense if you're going to feed something in addition to raw.

I know and that's the problem. People see them as "just a cat" and don't give a rip on what to feed. They're ignorant and don't have a clue. I think partly because it's so easy to obtain a pet and they don't think you need to know much to have one. I really want to change that.

 

[cat_crazy]

Originally Posted by sharky

That is a very good beginning guide and a wonderful one to open lines of communication for a raw diet with the cats actual vet. No book is a substitute for a discussion with the cats primary medical care provider.

The problem with that is that you won't find many vets that are okay with raw. Which is sad. So where can they turn to?
I've been lucky enough to finally find a vet in the area that suggests raw. The cats next vet appointment will be with her and I will be discussing raw with her.

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by Cat_crazy

Such as? I really genuinely do want to know because I personally know at least two people who have fed their cats like this their entire life and never had any health problems, were extremely healthy and lived a long life.

How many cats and how old are they? How old at death ?Are they up to date on vax? spayed or neutered ? Do they take them into the vet once to twice a year for just a check over?

I have finally figured out that you are most likely in your mid teens .... Your doing very well for a young lady/ man ...

I can go put up a website about spiders and claim to be an expert even take excerpts from other sites .... Reality -Yes, I can identify 95% of the spiders in my local area , but I am IMHO NOT qualified to tell others about it ... or I could write up a paper on space craft that sound s good and claim myself an expert ...lol.. I know very very little in that area ..

Basically , Remember your teachers and the old burden of proof and quality sources.. Just cause you read it online does not make it so

...

 

[strange_wings]

^That's just cause you're very smart sharky.

But people need to remember this when using wikipedia as a source for things, anyone can and do edit it.

Originally Posted by Cat_crazy

I know and that's the problem. People see them as "just a cat" and don't give a rip on what to feed. They're ignorant and don't have a clue. I think partly because it's so easy to obtain a pet and they don't think you need to know much to have one. I really want to change that.

Where I heard it was at Kmart. An older woman was in with her son and his wife. She must have been in her 70s and was trying to figure out what to get her cats - she was looking at the Purina one and Iams. The son came up behind her and said "they're just cats mom, they'll eat whatever" and tossed the MeowMix in.

What do you do about the seniors who either can't afford much or aren't capable of cutting up a bunch of raw?

Not everyone can do it.

 

[sharky]

I live in a town of 23000 ... I have three vets who feed and know raw well within 5 miles .... One of them has a master s in animal nutrition.... I also have two who are willing to help if someone has questions ( Ie they will research along with you)..Basically the folks saying they cant find one who will at least listen and then help or refer them to someone who will are not really the majority anymore.

You found one

It was not likely that difficult ... I found mine via word of mouth