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Vegan diet?
- Thread starter leporine
- Start Date
Synthetic taurine has been readily and cheaply available for some 70 years. The fact is, meat-based commercial cat food has synthetic taurine in it. The natural taurine that was originally in the meat gets destroyed by the high temperatures used in the rendering process, and therefore synthetic taurine needs to be added back into the final product. The taurine in vegan cat food is exactly the same as the taurine in mass-produced commercial meat cat food: both synthetic.
You can get vegan synthetic taurine online or from health food shops. I use the taurine powder from NOW Foods.
You can get vegan synthetic taurine online or from health food shops. I use the taurine powder from NOW Foods.
How often would you see a wild cat eating a tuna? Tunas are huge giant fish that live out in the middle of the ocean! I'd say tofu is no more "unnatural" for a cat to eat than tuna.
Cats' bodies need certain nutrients. As long as they get the nutrients they need, they don't care where those nutrients come from. It's just important to make sure whatever you're feeding, it really does have the nutrients a cat's body needs, in a form a cat's body is able to digest.
I am skipping ahead here, but there are simple factors, and what they eat in the wild is mostly moot (besides, feral cats have very short lifespans), its the physiology that matters.
Cats don't eat big ol' chickens, ducks, herring, etc in the wild, but they are obligate carnivores.
This specialization means that they have short tract intestines with small stomachs, do not produce the essential fatty acids and vitamins that they can extract from prey (that is not present in plant material), and the liver has to actually use protein to produce the enzymes to digest protein. This means that the food source has to be dense in proteins and fats and contain all 9 essential amino acids, to be easily and quickly digested by this system.
All proteins are not created equal, and many plant protein replacements are allergens for most cats, such as soy.
So you are not going to be able to provide the protein and fat density required for optimal growth and nutrition, and there are no long-term unbiased scientific studies available for cats on vegan diets, so you have to accept that you are performing experimentation on your pet that if incomplete or lacking in some area not yet understood as a vital component of meat replacement could be inadvertently harmful.
Bottom line is that meat is healthy for cats, and its really not immoral IMO for a carnivore to eat meat as it is by its very definition "natural".
Cats don't eat big ol' chickens, ducks, herring, etc in the wild, but they are obligate carnivores.
This specialization means that they have short tract intestines with small stomachs, do not produce the essential fatty acids and vitamins that they can extract from prey (that is not present in plant material), and the liver has to actually use protein to produce the enzymes to digest protein. This means that the food source has to be dense in proteins and fats and contain all 9 essential amino acids, to be easily and quickly digested by this system.
All proteins are not created equal, and many plant protein replacements are allergens for most cats, such as soy.
So you are not going to be able to provide the protein and fat density required for optimal growth and nutrition, and there are no long-term unbiased scientific studies available for cats on vegan diets, so you have to accept that you are performing experimentation on your pet that if incomplete or lacking in some area not yet understood as a vital component of meat replacement could be inadvertently harmful.
Bottom line is that meat is healthy for cats, and its really not immoral IMO for a carnivore to eat meat as it is by its very definition "natural".
This thread is from 2009 and dredged up for unknown reasons.
I'm not sure what you mean by balanced info...I thought Sharky's post was quite to the point. I'm not speaking from an ethical point of view but I just read an article in National Geographic magazine that, in terms of their physical structure and nutritional needs, cats have not changed much in the last 34 million years. Some originated in the desert hence their need for moisture in their diet. The article spoke about their need for animal protein and how it provides a cat's body with the much needed nutrients, not to mention the essential amino acids in the proper proportions, and energy. Cats cannot derive their energy from carbohydrates nor can they convert carbs into energy. If there is such thing as a vegan feline diet, it will most likely be made up of soy protein and lots of carbohydrates and vegetable material. Soy is a common allergen among cats and dogs and as I said before, they cannot digest carbs (they do not have the enzyme amylase which helps in the digestion of carbs). I also read another article written by a Veterinarian for a conference that one of the Vets at the clinic I work at attended. It also spoke of the necessity of animal protein. It has the ideal amount of essential nutrients, including taurine, for a cat.Originally Posted by Leporine
Before anyone goes on a tirade, I have not done this yet, and I'm only thinking about it. I don't eat meat, and so I feel kind of hypocritical when I turn around and buy meaty foods for my cats.
Does anyone have experience with vegan food and their cats- not just conjecture/"you-can't-do-that-because-you-can't"? I know it's safe for dogs, but I'm just a bit more wary about it with cats. I wouldn't do anything that might risk their health (not that meat-based food is always safe either).
I've heard primarily good things about it from vegan pet sites, but... I think they have a bit of a biasSo I'm just looking for balanced info here.
I'm sorry if this is not the information you are looking for but I think it would be difficult to find someone who would support a vegan diet for a cat. I am also reading a book called Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs and it speaks of how a vegan diet is not even good for dogs who are ostensilby omnivores (which I don't believe). Ethical or not, animal protein is what a cat needs. If you want to discuss ethics, how ethical would it be to feed your cat something it can't use and will be detrimental to its health? I applaud your choice for yourself but you can still provide your cat with the meat it needs and obtain it from ethical sources.
I believe that cats CAN digest carbs, they just don't have the enzyme for it and the stomach is small w/ a short intestine, so its not efficient. They can digest heavily refined/processed carbs efficiently, but it can lead to digestive upset and blood sugar spikes that can cause obesity from the swings and/or diabetes. Hence the concern when dry food manufacturers cheap out and try to substitute too much expensive animal protein with cheaper plant protein sources. The cats don't starve as they are getting calories, they just aren't as healthy.
They do the same nonsense feeding animal protein to herbivores like cows, with cows being fed meat and calves fed cow blood as a milk replacer, and sure enough we're seeing the health repercussions not just to the cattle but in people as well.
Common sense just isn't that common.
They do the same nonsense feeding animal protein to herbivores like cows, with cows being fed meat and calves fed cow blood as a milk replacer, and sure enough we're seeing the health repercussions not just to the cattle but in people as well.
Common sense just isn't that common.
Ok i will agree thar fhey digesf them. But they cannot use them for energy or for health like they do with animal proteins. Humans and dogs may have evolved to be able to eat a more varied diet but the cat hasn't. Prescription foods are fhe worst for their lack od common sense you refer to.Originally Posted by Ducman69
I believe that cats CAN digest carbs, they just don't have the enzyme for it and the stomach is small w/ a short intestine, so its not efficient. They can digest heavily refined/processed carbs efficiently, but it can lead to digestive upset and blood sugar spikes that can cause obesity from the swings and/or diabetes. Hence the concern when dry food manufacturers cheap out and try to substitute too much expensive animal protein with cheaper plant protein sources. The cats don't starve as they are getting calories, they just aren't as healthy.
They do the same nonsense feeding animal protein to herbivores like cows, with cows being fed meat and calves fed cow blood as a milk replacer, and sure enough we're seeing the health repercussions not just to the cattle but in people as well.
Common sense just isn't that common.
The original question asked if anyone has actually tried it. I have. For ten years my cats have been on VegeCat vegan formulas. For 14 years before that I fed an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet.
Results: The first cat, who was ovo-lacto from weaning at 7 weeks until she was 14 years old, then went vegan, lived almost 17 years and died from complications of thyroid disease, which is not known to be caused by inadequate diets.
Six of my seven current cats, ranging in age from 8 months to 10 1/2 years, have been with me and fed a vegan diet made with the VegeCat supplement since they were kittens (ranging from 4 to 12 weeks when I got them). The seventh cat was an adult when she moved in, and has been vegan for 4 or 5 years now.
As I am involved in animal rescue, over the past 20+ years I have also had a large number of rescue cats come through my home and stay temporarily until being adopted by other people. These have included two mother cats with newborn kittens who were nursed by vegan mothers then weaned onto vegan kitten food.
I keep my cats indoors, so I know they're not supplementing the vegan diet by hunting, because there's nothing in my house to hunt.
I am not a veterinarian or a food chemist. I would not try to create a vegan cat diet on my own, because I don't have the expertise to do so. But my experience using a product that has been around since 1986, was developed by people with expertise I don't have, and is approved by my own veterinarian, is that it certainly seems to work for the cats I've fed it to.
As for dogs, I feed Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula dog food, which is vegan. Much easier than the cat food because I don't have to make it myself. The dogs have strong muscles, shiny coats, bright eyes, and LOTS of energy.
So there it is. Not theory, not philosophy, not chemical analysis, but the empirical first-hand experience the original questioner asked for.
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Whether the original poster is still reading this or not, clearly the topic is of interest to more than that one person.
As I said in my last post, I am not qualified to discuss the science of it, but I do know enough about science to know that any theory that fails to account for empirically observed reality is flawed. Therefore, any theory about feline nutrition that fails to account for the reality of my cats must be flawed.
However, I would be interested in hearing from anyone else who is feeding, or has fed in the past, a vegan diet to cats, especially diets using the VegeCat product. If cats on this diet have had health problems, I want to know exactly what the problems are, so my vet and I can be on the alert for them. Like the original poster, I am asking to hear about what has actually happened when people fed cats a vegan diet, not about what people predict would theoretically happen.
As I said in my last post, I am not qualified to discuss the science of it, but I do know enough about science to know that any theory that fails to account for empirically observed reality is flawed. Therefore, any theory about feline nutrition that fails to account for the reality of my cats must be flawed.
However, I would be interested in hearing from anyone else who is feeding, or has fed in the past, a vegan diet to cats, especially diets using the VegeCat product. If cats on this diet have had health problems, I want to know exactly what the problems are, so my vet and I can be on the alert for them. Like the original poster, I am asking to hear about what has actually happened when people fed cats a vegan diet, not about what people predict would theoretically happen.
Does it matter? Be like if someone that sparked a discussion at a party went to the bathroom, the ten other people talking about it are like... OP left, can't talk about this anymore, lol!Originally Posted by sharky
Folks the OP I do not think has been seen for over a year ...
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I have read the same book, very interesting:")... Cats are on the food chain at the lower Predator NOT at the Prey part...Cats are Killers on the food chain and not an optional killer like a human or many bears ! They SHOULD eat meat, while some may think they can make a Carnivore a herbivore in Reality that is not a plausible case nor one Most Half way educated cat owners will entertain... IMHO I have a hard time seeing a vet being okay with that supplement or feeding method( yes I have spent much time reading that side of the fences thinking)... Truthfully, I would likely talk to the vet board if I found such a vet as there is ONLY a few issues that would qualify to attempt such a NON Species appropriate diet ...
You are again talking theory and what you think "SHOULD" be. I'm talking about empirically observed reality and what, in my own experience, actually IS. My cats have never read any books.
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Theory is PROVEN Hypothesis of at least three times
I don't think your cats ever opened a can of food, or poured a VegeCap over their food, or replenished their water bowl, or served themselves a meal, or cleaned their litterboxes, or walked themselves to the vet... so... what's your point?
They did't read any books, but it is your responsibility as an owner as doing the research for them, the same way as it is your responsibility to feeding, giving vet care, meds, etc
According to what definition?? Check a dictionary.Originally Posted by sharky
Theory is PROVEN Hypothesis of at least three times
Not exclusively that. I acknowledge that I personally am not an expert in nutrition science. I also noted in my previous posts that, not being an expert myself, I have relied upon other people who *are* experts, *and* who have empirical evidence, in the form of considerably more healthy cats than just the ones in my house, over a period of considerably more years than my cats have been around. In fact I volunteered one of my cats to be tested in a veterinary study of vegetarian cats. As part of that study, my cat's taurine and cobalamin levels were tested and found to be normal.
Oh, plenty of people have seen them, including several veterinarians over the 24 years I've had cats. And I am not denying that your cats are healthy. I've never seen your cats and would not presume to know anything about the state of their health.
Well, I have a warm soft fact in my lap right now. Please tell me exactly what health problems you think my cats are in danger of, so I can be sure to have my vet check for them.
The fact is, due to continually being told I'm endangering my cats, any time one of them gets sick, I get worried that it might be caused by their diet. Then it turns out to be something else, and I feel better about their diet, until the next time they get sick, and I worry it's because of their diet, and it turns out to be something else.... It would really help to know just what health problems vegan cats are supposed to be at risk for, so I can make sure my vet is monitoring for those problems, and stop worrying about their diet when it turns out they have (in the most recent example) a respiratory infection that the most recently rescued cat probably brought with her when she came in off the streeet. I know their blood panels are fine and they do not have urinary crystals or cardiomyopathy. What else?
That is true, and I have done enough research to be satisfied that the animal nutrition experts who developed their diet are qualified to do so, and the veterinarians who monitor their health would tell me if they had any diet-related problems. I have always made a point of informing my cats' veterinarians about the diet I'm feeding, and asking the vets to check carefully for any sign of nutritional deficiencies.Originally Posted by Carolina
They did't read any books, but it is your responsibility as an owner as doing the research for them, the same way as it is your responsibility to feeding, giving vet care, meds, etc
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For this I applaud you ... Many using non standard diets do not( vegan to raw)discuss with their vets ... You would be one a few that did enough research to know the basics to ask the vet for...
Has the diet your feeding ever been threw a AFFCO testing procedure( not an analysis type but a feeding trial) or like ( as in other countries the names are different)?
Theory vs Hypothesis are taught to the ave third/fourth grader( or they were a couple decades back).
http://psychology.about.com/od/resea...desintro_2.htm
I can tell you the types used in the supplement are very hard to digest and not the optimal ones by most standards...
