Unsuccessful introduction, now reintroducing

qubit

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Hi, I apologize if this topic has already been posted about. I’m not very “forum savy”.





I have two cats I’m trying to reintroduce, and would love some advice.





Backstory:





I got my current cat Woodchip, a male Siberian Forest Cat from a breeder on December 30th 2023. He’s currently a year and a half old and neutered. He has a history of being easily overstimulated. So I try to keep him on a routine of playing twice a day for about 30 mins each session. And training at night with treats. This has helped his behavioral problems he had before.





He has multiple window beds, a cat tree, plenty of toys, plenty of squirrels and rabbits to watch outside and on the tv where I play cat tv videos for him as well. He was showing signs of boredom, so my husband and I made the decision to get another kitten from the same breeder on January 25th of this year. She is 4 months old, almost 5. Her name is Pepper. We haven’t spayed her yet, but plan on getting her to the vet next month once our insurance for her starts. We both work from home, and can’t play 24/7 with our current cat. So we wanted to get him a friend before he got too old and it would become more difficult to introduce them.





We set my office room up as her home base and garnished it with a window hammock, 2 cat beds, some toys and a shirt from my husband and myself so she could get used to both our scents. We slowly integrated and swapped things that smelled like my current cat, and things that smelled like her. Scent swapping, as Jackson Galaxy calls it. We started feeding them on either side of the door and then placed a baby gate on the door with towels over it. We slowly raised the towels as they were eating each day, and everything seemed to be going fine. They were both smelling each other, and curious of one another.





Eventually we took the gate down and introduced them with toys and treats. Trying to maintain the positive reinforcement with each encounter. And at first they played like kittens. They would chase each other back and forth. And if our current cat was too aggressive with the kitten, she would vocalize it, and he would back off. It seemed as if they were finding their boundaries and communication with each other. Until about 5 days into having them together without a gate or separation. Suddenly my current cat started getting more aggressive with the kitten. Chasing her like prey and biting her. I’ve had to separate them.





I feel absolutely defeated by this, and having to start over. I feel like we may have moved too fast with the initial introduction and not provided enough resources to each them separately. Especially my current cat. Like shelves in their common play area so he can get up and away from her. But my husband and I aren’t seeing eye to eye about it. I’ve done a fair amount of research preparing for this and trying to understand the current situation. But these are only my assumptions based off what I’ve learned.





At the moment, I’ve started at square 1 again. The kitten is back in base camp. Which I feel absolutely terrible about because she was so happy to be out and exploring the house. She is eager to be friends with my current cat. But as I said before, I think a lot is lost in translation as they haven’t found a common ground for communication yet. And my current cat is a “napoleon boy”. He velcro’s himself to me everyday. So he can be moody if my attention is elsewhere, or if I stray from his everyday routine.





I would love an outside opinion. Some advice as to what I can do to make their reintroduction successful. Since they’re from the same breeder, they share family lineage. Not that this would make them automatic friends. But possibly being raised by the same mom would give them similar socializing? I’m not certain how they carry on with that. But it gives me hope…





(Pics attached to introduce my kittehs)
 

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FeebysOwner

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Hi and welcome to TCS! Very gorgeous cats! My best guess is that she is starting to produce hormones/going into heat and your male cat can pick up on that - even if he is neutered. Heat cycles do not have to demonstrate some of what most folks consider obvious signs. She could be a cat that goes into silent heat, but that still will make her smell differently.

You may have to wait to move forward with introductions until after she is spayed and healed.
 

ArtNJ

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A 1 1/2 year old and a kitten? I would be willing to bet a substantial amount of money that its rough play. Play biting is 100% part of play. An adult that was biting for real? The kitten would be dead. Biting the neck is the kill move in the wild. Since it was play, you will not find wounds.

I'd also bet money that if you let things play out, the kitten would have run away/hid . . . but come back out in a few minutes and acted like nothing happened. Even initiate play. That tells you all is well.

Since you have two very different opinions here -- and I absolutely respect FeebysOwner FeebysOwner 's knowledge -- maybe the best thing to do is take a video so you can get some additional and more informed opinions.
 
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qubit

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Hi and welcome to TCS! Very gorgeous cats! My best guess is that she is starting to produce hormones/going into heat and your male cat can pick up on that - even if he is neutered. Heat cycles do not have to demonstrate some of what most folks consider obvious signs. She could be a cat that goes into silent heat, but that still will make her smell differently.

You may have to wait to move forward with introductions until after she is spayed and healed.
Thank you! I didn’t even think about that. I’m gonna set up an appt with her vet asap and see what I can do. I’ll set a different appt up for my resident cat later and make sure he’s in good health as well. I’m pretty certain he is, but just in case.
 

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I actually agree with both opinions. My female cat, I had her first, was spayed - and my new male cat, even after being neutered, seemed a bit too interested at times. I think he was just going through growing up, if that makes sense. So yeah, if your kitty isn’t spayed yet she could very well be sending out hormones/pheromones.
Also agree with ArtNJ that it could be rough play. My male even still at times does this to my female, but she’s 4 years old and although small, she whoops him and puts him in his place.
I’d definitely call the vet and just ask if they think she should be spayed soon, and what their opinion is on the way they’re playing. Maybe get it on video?
You’re doing a great job, doing the best you can for both kitties. Hang in there!
 
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qubit

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A 1 1/2 year old and a kitten? I would be willing to bet a substantial amount of money that its rough play. Play biting is 100% part of play. An adult that was biting for real? The kitten would be dead. Biting the neck is the kill move in the wild. Since it was play, you will not find wounds.

I'd also bet money that if you let things play out, the kitten would have run away/hid . . . but come back out in a few minutes and acted like nothing happened. Even initiate play. That tells you all is well.

Since you have two very different opinions here -- and I absolutely respect FeebysOwner FeebysOwner 's knowledge -- maybe the best thing to do is take a video so you can get some additional and more informed opinions.
At first, I believe they did have some rough play. But now I think it’s turned into fighting. His ears go back and his tail goes crazy. She’s scared of him now because he’s so much bigger than her. I’ve trimmed his nails so he can’t scratch her. But I’ve only successfully been able to trim a few of hers. So I think she has scratched him. And he may remember that.
They don’t instantly fight either. And she does come out of hiding like you said. They sniff each other. Then she does her kitten thing. And he gets hyper focused on her like she’s prey. Even though I try to play with him multiple times a day to release some of that energy, take him on his leash and harness in the backyard for stimulation. Even try to get him to focus on a toy instead of her. He won’t.
Here’s a video from the other night (tried to attach a zip file video). After they haven’t even been around each other for a few days now.
 

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qubit

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I actually agree with both opinions. My female cat, I had her first, was spayed - and my new male cat, even after being neutered, seemed a bit too interested at times. I think he was just going through growing up, if that makes sense. So yeah, if your kitty isn’t spayed yet she could very well be sending out hormones/pheromones.
Also agree with ArtNJ that it could be rough play. My male even still at times does this to my female, but she’s 4 years old and although small, she whoops him and puts him in his place.
I’d definitely call the vet and just ask if they think she should be spayed soon, and what their opinion is on the way they’re playing. Maybe get it on video?
You’re doing a great job, doing the best you can for both kitties. Hang in there!
He is def still growing up. From what the breeder told me, Siberian forest cats can take anywhere from 3-5 years to mature. And he still acts like a teenager, thats for sure. I set an appt with our vet to meet and assess our new kitten on Thursday. Hopefully we can set up an appt fpr spaying soon as well. I'll show her the video I've taken (attached to my reply to ArtNJ) and see what she says. Thank you!! I hope I can let her have some freedom with the rest of the house at all times soon. It truly breaks my heart to have to lock her up in my office at night...
 

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Video is definitely play. Its just rougher than the kitten is enjoying, but that is normal. I jokingly said I was willing to bet money, because this is how it so often goes with these ages.

What sometimes happens is that it takes a while for the adult to get fully comfortable with the kitten. So even though you initially thought everything was ok and there was some gentle play, the adult may have been held back by not being comfortable. Now your seeing a young play crazy adult that is fully comfortable playing with the new toy. Its less than ideal to make the kitten squeal, but you have to keep in mind that the kitten is telling you its fine by coming back out in a few, and getting a net benefit the same way little human brother gets a net benefit even if big brother sometimes gives him a head noogie. Head noogies hurt a little bit, but do no permanent damage, and other than calling for mom in the moment, little human bro goes right back to wanting to play when its done.
So its best to allow this play, only intervening if kitten is cornered and seems unable to escape and particularly miserable. .
 
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qubit

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He’s definitely getting really rough with her. He’s chasing her, pouncing on her, pinning her and biting her. And it doesn’t look like play bites. She screams and hisses. Runs and hides from him. She does eventually come out. She desperately does want to play with him. But it’s as if she’s prey and he wants to kill her.
Every time they’re together, within minutes I have to get him off her over and over because he’s either cornered her, or pinned her and biting her. His ears are down and his tail is wiping around and he seems very agitated and annoyed with her. I’ve tried to let it play out. But I just can’t let him bite her over and over. Because he seems like he really wants to hurt her.

I did notice when he first comes around her, when I’ve let her out of our room and near him. He smells her butt, and that seems to trigger him. So it seems like hormones are affecting this. I brought her to the vet on Thursday for her first check up. After some blood work, we’re planning her spaying in early March. After her insurance kicks in. I showed her vet the videos I had and asked her for advice. But all she could tell me was that he looked very upset and that it was definitely fighting. And that sometimes that happens and cats don’t get along.
when I asked if there was anything I could do, like reintroducing, etc. She just said the same thing. That sometimes they just won’t get along.

My stomach is in knots over this. There has to be a way they can coexist peacefully. Even if just tolerating one another. I’m so desperate to find any way to remedy this. I’ve even gotten Jackson Galaxys Bully solution coming in the mail on Tuesday. And some more shelves to put up next week as well…
 
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qubit

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Video is definitely play. Its just rougher than the kitten is enjoying, but that is normal. I jokingly said I was willing to bet money, because this is how it so often goes with these ages.

What sometimes happens is that it takes a while for the adult to get fully comfortable with the kitten. So even though you initially thought everything was ok and there was some gentle play, the adult may have been held back by not being comfortable. Now your seeing a young play crazy adult that is fully comfortable playing with the new toy. Its less than ideal to make the kitten squeal, but you have to keep in mind that the kitten is telling you its fine by coming back out in a few, and getting a net benefit the same way little human brother gets a net benefit even if big brother sometimes gives him a head noogie. Head noogies hurt a little bit, but do no permanent damage, and other than calling for mom in the moment, little human bro goes right back to wanting to play when its done.
So its best to allow this play, only intervening if kitten is cornered and seems unable to escape and particularly miserable. .
Oops, I meant to reply to you directly. But accidentally just posted a general reply.


He’s definitely getting really rough with her. He’s chasing her, pouncing on her, pinning her and biting her. And it doesn’t look like play bites. She screams and hisses. Runs and hides from him. She does eventually come out. She desperately does want to play with him. But it’s as if she’s prey and he wants to kill her.
Every time they’re together, within minutes I have to get him off her over and over because he’s either cornered her, or pinned her and biting her. His ears are down and his tail is wiping around and he seems very agitated and annoyed with her. I’ve tried to let it play out. But I just can’t let him bite her over and over. Because he seems like he really wants to hurt her.

I did notice when he first comes around her, when I’ve let her out of our room and near him. He smells her butt, and that seems to trigger him. So it seems like hormones are affecting this. I brought her to the vet on Thursday for her first check up. After some blood work, we’re planning her spaying in early March. After her insurance kicks in. I showed her vet the videos I had and asked her for advice. But all she could tell me was that he looked very upset and that it was definitely fighting. And that sometimes that happens and cats don’t get along.
when I asked if there was anything I could do, like reintroducing, etc. She just said the same thing. That sometimes they just won’t get along.

My stomach is in knots over this. There has to be a way they can coexist peacefully. Even if just tolerating one another. I’m so desperate to find any way to remedy this. I’ve even gotten Jackson Galaxys Bully solution coming in the mail on Tuesday. And some more shelves to put up next week as well…
 

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If he was trying to hurt the kitten, it would already be dead. That is the reality. Instead, no wounds at all, and its only the kitten making noises, yes? So it absolutely is rough play. Not all vets actually understand cat behavior. Not something they really seem to teach in vet school. The kitten very much does NOT like it, in the moment. But the reason the kitten comes out in a bit and acts like nothing happened is because it isn't a big deal. It will get more equal in time.

Sounds like you need a few others to watch the video so lets see Furballsmom Furballsmom Mamanyt1953 Mamanyt1953 A Alldara . If the video you showed the vet is rougher than the one you linked above, link that one too. The videos already linked didn't even seem that rough to me; sometimes play crazy adults get really crazy with kittens.

All of that said, spaying the kitten is absolutely a great idea.
 
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Alldara

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I cannot see the video. That's a ZIP file which is a download. You'd need to upload the video somewhere such as YouTube and link it.

What was your reaction when they would get too rough? Personally, I would not let them continue through squeeling etc.

Are you getting any play energy out before the introductions? Giving them something to do during the introductions or just letting them focus on one another?

There's no reason you cannot be site swapping and scent swapping so that she has some time to explore the house still. Even gated introductions should still be fine. You can take it back to the last step that worked rather than start at the beginning.

March is only a few weeks away. So do not be discouraged!
 
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qubit

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I cannot see the video. That's a ZIP file which is a download. You'd need to upload the video somewhere such as YouTube and link it.

What was your reaction when they would get too rough? Personally, I would not let them continue through squeeling etc.

Are you getting any play energy out before the introductions? Giving them something to do during the introductions or just letting them focus on one another?

There's no reason you cannot be site swapping and scent swapping so that she has some time to explore the house still. Even gated introductions should still be fine. You can take it back to the last step that worked rather than start at the beginning.

March is only a few weeks away. So do not be discouraged!
Both my husband and I are usually quick to react and make sure he’s not hurting her and vice versa.
I try to get individual play time, especially with Woodchip the bigger cat, beforehand. But it doesn’t matter if I play with him for an hr and a half. He will still treat her like prey. It’s gotten much more aggressive since this recording. She does hide and come back out eventually. But he chases her, tackles her or finds a way to corner her and gets very aggressive with her. He tries to bite her tummy area. I can’t tell if he’s actually biting her hard or not. She doesn’t have any marks, but is certainly very scared and responsive to that. She keeps trying to give him signs that she isn’t a threat, and even warns him. But that seems to egg him on and make him more aggravated.
I tried my hardest to maintain his attention on a toy or me (he’s very attached to me), but it doesn’t matter what I do. He is hyper focused on her the moment he sees her.
She’s definitely explored the house more, as I swap them between our bedroom and the house. So she’s a lot more comfortable with the whole house now. He cries for her at the door and she will as well, in the morning. It’s very confusing.

Here’s a link for the video on my Vimeo account:
 

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That looks a bit rough to me, and I don't think Pepper is really too comfortable with it. She isn't exactly running and hiding in that video, but I personally feel like she would like Woody to stop. Some of it could be the size difference and she finds it overwhelming because he certainly can overpower her at this point. it isn't a matter of whether or not he is trying to kill her, as I doubt that he is - it is a matter that she is uncomfortable, and he is getting too riled up. I think I'd would be inclined to separate them when it gets like it was in that video. I agree with your assessment of the interaction.

I know you said he cries for her when they are separated - does he do that if he can see her (like through a gate)? What happens if you hold her and invite him up to check her out while she is on your lap?

It is hard not to do, but he can clearly see you favoring her and if he is that close to you, he may react more poorly to her because of it. I'd shy away from doing that as much as possible, even if that means simply picking her up and removing her from the area. As far as I can see, she likely would appreciate it and doing so tells him it is not OK to try to repeatedly beat her up.

Due to him being easily overstimulated, I think taking the introductions at a much slower pace for now, perhaps even until after she is spayed, is your best bet. Right now, you don't know if she is emitting hormones that are helping to set him off or not.
 

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I agree it does seem like rough play and Woody is getting a bit over stimulated.

FeebysOwner FeebysOwner offered some great advice but I would like to add that I don't recommend using your hand or body part to get in between them. Some members suggest using a tennis racket, stiff piece of cardboard or similar items to act as a barrier when trying to separate them from contacting each other.
 

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Still looks like a lot of nothing to me. Kitten's posture is relaxed. Could run; isn't. Perspectives differ, but I'd consider these guys friends and let them be. Sure it might be too much at times, but that is the way of big and little brothers or sisters.
 
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qubit

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That looks a bit rough to me, and I don't think Pepper is really too comfortable with it. She isn't exactly running and hiding in that video, but I personally feel like she would like Woody to stop. Some of it could be the size difference and she finds it overwhelming because he certainly can overpower her at this point. it isn't a matter of whether or not he is trying to kill her, as I doubt that he is - it is a matter that she is uncomfortable, and he is getting too riled up. I think I'd would be inclined to separate them when it gets like it was in that video. I agree with your assessment of the interaction.

I know you said he cries for her when they are separated - does he do that if he can see her (like through a gate)? What happens if you hold her and invite him up to check her out while she is on your lap?

It is hard not to do, but he can clearly see you favoring her and if he is that close to you, he may react more poorly to her because of it. I'd shy away from doing that as much as possible, even if that means simply picking her up and removing her from the area. As far as I can see, she likely would appreciate it and doing so tells him it is not OK to try to repeatedly beat her up.

Due to him being easily overstimulated, I think taking the introductions at a much slower pace for now, perhaps even until after she is spayed, is your best bet. Right now, you don't know if she is emitting hormones that are helping to set him off or not.
When I have the gate up, he stares at her. If I let him check her out while on my lap, he wants to sniff her rear end and lick it. Which makes me think she is putting out hormones that he can clearly smell.
When he first interacts with her after letting them together, he just sniffs her. Then he gets a little playful. Then becomes over stimulated quickly after that. Every time. He will walk away here and there. And she will find something to play with. I try to gain his attention with toys, but he keeps his eyes locked onto her. And everything she’s doing. Then he stalks her, hunts her like prey, and gets too aggressive.
It’s gotten to the point where he has no interest in any of his toys anymore. Because he sees her as the best toy.
We’re currently waiting for a quote from our vet for the bloodwork she needs before spaying. Then we’ll spay her. I’m hoping a few weeks after spaying, he won’t be as interested in her and allow her to be a kitten.
Should I start them off at the gate stage since they already know each other exists?
I’ve been thinking of making my own screen door for her base camp, so I don’t have to worry about either of them hopping over a baby gate.
Or should I start from square one, and close the door, scent swap, and don’t allow eye contact?
They eat fine while near each other.
 

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I would start with the gate. If you can keep up some sighted contact with a gate until then, that would be great too.
 
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