Third cat introduction went well, but now integration is going downhill.

[ert1988]

As of March 1, 2015, we went from a 2 cat to a 3 cat household.  Introductions and integration was going well, but is now going downhill due to recently started bullying behavior.  We've tried to go very slow and follow the most popular tips - and it was working well until the last few weeks.  I'd love your feedback/experiences.  

A little bit of info:

• Existing cats are a 4 year old M & F domestic short hair
• They are not from the same litter, but brought home from the shelter together as kittens
• M (Noah), is dominate
• F (Sophie), can be shy and hesitant, but is not a "hide under the couch for days" kind of cat
• Noah and Sophie overall get along - we occasionally break up rough housing, but nothing bad (no hissing, blood, etc.)
• 3 litter boxes (2 in one room, 1 in the other).  Cleaned daily and scrubbed/refilled monthly.  
• 4 different water locations (3/4 away from food)
• 2 different food locations
• 1 large tower 
• Smaller, but still elevated areas in other rooms for cats to escape

The new cat:

• 1 year old F (Elsie)
• Appears to be Burmese
• Sweet personality - she's cautious but is not afraid.  Does appear to want dominance (not a mean cat, has never hissed, growled, etc), but has backed down.  She appears to mostly want to play.

Our process:

• Elsie lived in our second bedroom for over a month before any introductions beyond scent swapping began
• Hissing from the original cats was very minimal after the first couple of days Elsie was with us.  Growling only happened on the first day
• Scent introductions and feedings on each side of the door is all that happened for the first month (we had a towel under the door crack to prevent paw fights)
• We then removed the towel and let them get used to Elsie's paw (associated it with toys and treats)
• We then cracked the door during feedings (used lots of tuna - even rubbed tuna on Elsie's nose for a positive scent association)
• We swapped blankets/scents and swapped cat locations for exploration
• Once all of the above was good (no hissing or noticeable body language issues), we put Elsie in her crate and fed the cats in the same room
• We then moved Elsie into a bigger playpen (she was zipped in, but could roam, letting Noah and Sophie get used to her movement) and fed the cats in the same room on each side of the playpen
• Noah was introduced to Elsie first (I admit that he appeared more comfortable than Sophie) outside of her pen and all was fine
• Elsie was introduced to Sophie in the main living area with wet food and tuna.  No big issues...everyone ate.  Sophie didn't want much to do with her, but acted well for having a new cat around.
• Once the above was fine, Elsie only stayed in her room when we were not around
• For about a month now, Elsie has been outside of her room all of the time except for night time
• Everything has been supplemented by Feliway plugins
• Lots of play - try to encourage all 3

What's happening:

• Elsie tried to be dominate at first with staring and no-claw swiping.  Some of it was play, some of it wasn't.  This was mostly directed to Noah.  They are fine now and seem to have found their dynamic (co-dominance almost, but he has the final say when he chooses)
• At first, Sophie would mildly hiss if Elsie got too close.  Elsie started respecting this and the hissing diminished.
• Everyone eats together and can be in the same room together, but Sophie is starting to bully.
• Sophie stares down Elsie and charges Elsie (not physical violence or fights)
• Sophie has begun litter box bullying through stalking
• Elsie very much backs down, but this seems to encourage Sophie further
• Noah is laid back and fine
• Elsie does not instigate 

Our reactions:

• We hiss/create a distracting noise if we catch Sophie charging
• We try to step between/break eye contact if Sophie is staring (attempting to redirect).  This is only mildly successful as Sophie is intent on Elsie.
• When Sophie is not bullying, we are giving her extra attention and priority 
• We are moving litter boxes to try to create a better escape route to diminish litter box stalking 
• Reloading up Feliway (we went from 3 to 1 because we ran out of refills)
• As of this morning, Elsie is back in her room when we are not there to supervise

We are concluding the 4th month of owning Elsie and I am becoming concerned as this started off so well.  I do not want a big issue to develop, and I am fearful it has already begun.  Any advice?  Did I rush this?  Did I do (or not do) something else?  Am I glossing over a need of Sophie's, thus fueling her behavior?  

 

[ert1988]

Also, for what it's worth, at meal time (wet food), Sophie initiates nose touches with Elsie.  They happily eat right next to each other (the dry food is located in 2 separate locations so they do not have to eat right next to each other throughout the day).  I would assume that this is a hopeful sign?

 

[shadowsrescue]

I am not sure that you rushed the entire process, but most of us rush the last few important steps.  We so want the cats to get along and they seem to be doing well and we just kind of hope for the best at the end.  It starts off great, then slowly progresses downhill.  This is common.    Cats are very very territorial creatures.  They are not pack animals.

A few thoughts:

1.  You need more litter  boxes.  The golden rule is 1 box per cat plus one extra.  So you need at least 4.  Since Sophie is being a bully at the litter box, you need more boxes.  I would add at least 2 more right now and hope that you can phase at least one out when things settle down.  The more litter boxes right now the better.  Litter box bullying is not a good thing as it can lead to so many problems.  Also be sure the litter boxes are not covered.  No cat wants to get trapped in a covered box.  I like to use sterlite under the bed boxes that you can find at Target/Walmart for about $8.  The are about 25" long by 18" wide by 5" deep.  Perfect for larger cats.

2.  Have you used Feliway plug in diffusers?  You may need a few of them in all rooms that cats hang out in.  Also look into Composure liquid max calming supplement.  I think all of the cats could use some calm.  I used it on a very territorial aggressive feral/stray that I brought into my home.  It worked well on the aggressive cat and helped the submissive cat to feel more calm as well.  It is easily mixed into wet food 1-2x a day.

3.  You can either start intros over or you can try giving time outs for the cat (s) that are causing problems.  I usually take the instigator and place them in a room by themselves for 15-60 minutes.  Then try again.  Back to time out if it happens again and then the third strike the cats are separated for the day.

4.  Do you use food rewards?  Not just basic treats, but something yummy such as plain cooked chicken, canned salmon, canned tuna, etc..  Cats like to associate each other with something yummy and food is often a way to their heart.

When I brought the feral/stray into my home and did introductions with my resident cat and large dog, it took one full year for integration.  I rushed the last steps and after 4 months, I had to start over.  It was a slow process and it was over 7 months before I could have the cats out together with me during the day.  It was 10 months before they could be left out when no one was home. 

Another big helpful piece was that I needed to remain calm.  When I was stressed from all of the fighting or crying because I thought they might never get along, it made the cats worse.  When I was calm and easy going the cats really responded.

Here is an excellent video by Jackson Galaxy on Cat to Cat intros.  It might give you some help too.  Also he has a line of flower essences for cats/dogs that are awesome.  You might want to check them out as well.  They are called Spirit Essences.  They have a bully remedy and a peace maker and a stress stopper.

 

[ert1988]

Thank you so much @ShadowsRescue!

Yes, as soon as it appeared that all was well, Elsie was free to roam and we were more relaxed about letting the cats settle the remaining items in terms of dominance.  It sounds like we followed through pretty well except for the very end.

To answer your questions:

1. You are very right - we need to buy more boxes.  The boxes are not covered.  We stopped with that practice when Noah started bullying Sophie at the boxes.  There have been no other issues up until now (and never any marking/going outside of the box issues, thankfully).  
2. Oh, yes!  We usually have 3 plugged in (one in Elsie's room, one in the hallway near her room and the litter boxes, and one in the main area). Our condo isn't huge (doesn't help the integration), so 3 should be more than enough. We got down to one refill, which could be impacting the stress.  Refills are arriving tomorrow.  I've also tried Bach Rescue Remedy for pets, but have so far been unimpressed.  I'll look into your recommendations, thank you.
3. At this point, because of how well they had been doing, we will just try time outs.  Elsie would be so upset to be segregated 24/7 again that that could impact positive associations.  We'll only do that as more of a last resort.  Otherwise,  Elsie will be separated when we aren't home and at night.
4. Yes, for quite a while - until we perceived that everyone was getting along.  Tuna made everything right, so I should not have stopped.

When litter box stalking is occurring, what do you recommend?  Do I redirect Sophie's attention with playing, make a loud noise as the redirection, or put her in a time out?  I don't want to punish her with noises and time out to the point she develops worse associations, but I want to avoid rewarding aggressive behavior.  Usually when I redirect her with a loud noise, she'll often resume stalking.  If she does not, I make over her.

Thank you again! 

 

[shadowsrescue]

As far as litter box stalking, I would set up another box and show it to the other cats first.  The stalker will eventually find it, but it might by the others a few days.  When you see her stalking, I would tell her 'NO' and then redirect with a toy.  Try a wand toy or laser pointer,  If she continues, physically remove her and then continue to redirect out of sight.  Once she plays for a bit, reward her with a treat.

Keep doing the tuna.  You can just sit on the floor and offer small pieces of tuna to all.  I try to always end a session on a high note.  Try not to wait until their is an incident that makes you stop.  Keep the sessions short to start; maybe less than 5 minutes and gradually increase. 

Time outs worked well for my aggressive boy.  He hated being put away and missing out.  A few times he got to the 3rd strike and I kept him in his own room (his safe room) for the rest of the day.  We started again fresh the next day. 

 

[ert1988]

Update:  We moved the third litter box to an open area.  Elsie used it, Sophie non-aggressively came up to her and smelled her butt, then walked away.

Unfortunately, now both girls are ticked at each other.  Elsie is charging back and they both are now more weary of each other, shifting between offense and defense.  Things are fine, of course, over tuna.  They'll eat head to head if it means tuna.

I wonder if Elsie is still vying for dominance.  She initially did when we had everyone integrated, which appears to be a personality trait of Burmese cats.  In the beginning Sophie balked enough by hissing that Elsie backed down, but then Sophie started the bullying.  Now it's coming full circle again.

Looks like I am going to have to step backwards even more.  I'm very disappointed and very stressed out.  I do not care if they like each other, but I want them to be able to co-exist.  Both should be able to walk past the other without getting upset.

I am also concerned that I will be prolonging the process of them defining hierarchy if I don't give them any opportunity to interact in this manner at least to a limited degree.  Is this a justified concern?  I understand that leaving cats to just work it out is never a good thing, but I would imagine that they must work some things out between each other.

Thank you again.

 

[shadowsrescue]

Are you having all out fur flying fights or just some hissing and posturing when they walk by each other?

Being weary of walking by each other is very normal.  It took my two well over a year to comfortably walk by each other.  They have to realize that they can walk by one another and no one will attack.  They are both on the defense and both very nervous.  This will take time.

If you are having fur flying fights, then you need to keep the cats separated.  If it is just noise making then just keep an eye on it and try redirecting the issue with a toy.  Yes, this is hard work and it takes time. 

Also watch your stress.  I have been there.  It took my two one solid year.  I cried and cried and was a stressed out mess.  This did not help the cats one bit.  They picked up on my stress and I made things worse.  My DH was much calmer for a few days, I let him take over.  The cats improved.  I was then able to keep myself more calm.  When an issue happened, I picked up the aggressor and put them in time out and went about my business.  I work from home so it was stressful all day. 

Also do you have vertical space?  Cats need to know they can safely escape from one another.  You often will find that cats are either bush dwellers ( love to be low and hide under bushes/furnture) or tree dwellers ( they like to be up high).  Do you have more than one cat tree/condo or other places where the cats can get up and away?  Do a search on Jackson Galaxy Cat Super highway.  Check out some images.  He suggests shelving all around so that the cats can be up. 

 

[ert1988]

No fur flying fights.  There is posturing and some hissing (this has never been severe and actually all but stopped until this week).  Sophie had been charging and staring down Elsie, but charges have never ended with fighting.  The other will run, leaving the other to sit and stare.

Elsie charged Sophie last night after Sophie had been stalking her.  Sophie hissed and recoiled (no fighting), but that was it and then we separated them.  Elsie charged again this morning.  Sophie ran and then charged Elsie back.  Elsie hopped up on a chair and it ended.  No hissing, but visibly unhappy.  They were again separated and remain so (I had to leave for work anyway).  Up until then Elsie had sat on a chair by a window and Sophie calmly sat in her corner.  Sophie had even been rolling on her back in the middle of the kitchen this morning wanting attention (while Elsie was out).  The charging issue happened in the hallway, where there was only one escape route.

We have one large tower with 2 perches and a kitty condo.  Sophie has been retreating under our corner desk and chair.  We will likely dismantle that and replace it with a second tower.  Up until now, Sophie has always liked high spaces.  We have other perches, but nothing that could be considered a tower from a height perspective.

My husband and I were extra stressed last night and it certainly did not help.  We need to back off stalking Sophie to see what she's doing and just be a casual observer, quickly, but calming intervening should they charge.  I believe we contributed to this as this situation has existed for a couple weeks now, but Sophie and Elsie still coexisted despite the occasional charge and some stare downs.

You've really helped reassure me, thank you.  I'm researching all of your suggestions.

 

[ert1988]

Update: I think getting down to 1/3 Feliway plugins really caused everyone to feel stressed. All 3 refills are plugged in now and it's almost like nothing happened. Sophie is happy and Elsie is happy.

That said, it's now quite obvious that there are still issues and more work to do with integration. Elsie will still remain separated if we aren't here, we will have lots of tuna associations, play time, attention redirection, and will separate the offender when a charge happens.

 

[ert1988]

Update: They are perfect eating together. Sophie will wash Elsie's head. I've only had to stop one potential charge, but Sophie's eyes and posture indicates how unhappy she is with Elsie walking around and Elsie acts scared if Sophie moves too quickly.

Sophie is at least spending less time in her corner and is more happy with us. It's progress, I suppose.

 

[mani]

. It's progress, I suppose.

   It definitely is, even though if feels like it's all happening at a snail's pace.  It means there's a little shift and that's a good thing.

 

[ert1988]

@Mani, progress is thankfully noticeable. The girls don't love walking past each other and will instead sit and stare each other down. But I am able to redirect with playing. Both played together with an end of a string less than 2 feet apart today. Sophie even tolerated Elsie running into her mid-string chase. All slept on separate, but close, kitchen chairs last night. Sophie is no longer retreating and slinks much less, and Elsie does not run from Sophie.
We just have to work on walking past each other!

 

[ert1988]

Update: Tension still exists, but is overall easily redirected. Sophie stalked Elsie some this morning, but was quickly redirected with toys. She played pretty hard and was in a visible play mood. At one point she charged after Noah, which has always been a mutual part of their play time with each other.
That makes me hopeful her mood towards Elsie is changing some, but it would be too much on them to allow that kind of play.

 

[ert1988]

Update:  Still a ways to go, but attempts at charging have all but stopped.  Walking past each other has improved, but there are still times when one acts overly cautious or is wide eyed and perhaps considering a charge.  I've only separated Sophie twice when she has seemed overly stressed.  She immediately calms down in the other room, so I make it a positive situation by spending time with her so she's not isolated.  Having Sophie associate "punishment" with Elsie will not help.

Sophie is still fairly concerned with where Elsie is at while we have her out, but will settle down and rest after a while.  She is staying out of her corner and resuming life in her normal, favorite spots.  In fact, Sophie has started sitting under a chair that Elsie always sits on, and has sat directly under Elsie twice.  No bad body language.

Elsie is starting to come up to sniff Sophie's rear and touch noses.  Sophie gives her a bit of a look and Elsie walks away.  This is tolerable, but I do keep a close eye on these interactions.  

My tactics have been separation when there is no supervision (or as needed based on their stress levels), special tuna treats whenever Elsie is let out from her room (or to reward good behavior), extra supervision so I can redirect any rising tensions, and extra play.  Litter boxes are uncovered and spread out throughout the house to discourage some mild litter box stalking.   I am still using Feliway plugins and Bach's Rescue Remedy for pets, which seems to help.  I ordered Composure calming liquid per a suggestion on this forum, and just ordered a Feliway multi-cat diffuser that uses pheromones emitted by mother cats. 

If things keep moving in this direction, then I feel like we are slowly, but surely, rebuilding peace and tolerance.

 

[shadowsrescue]

It looks like things are progressing.  Just keep it slow and don't rush.  Patience is your friend.  You are using all of the right tools.  It will now just take time for the cats to all get comfortable walking around with each other.  This may take a lot of time.  It took my two over a year to walk past one another without knowing if they would be ambushed. 

 

[ert1988]

@ShadowsRecue, we are getting there. We had our first charge tonight since everything went down last Wednesday. I didn't see it happen, but based on their stances, I think it was Elsie who charged. It also didn't help that it was storming (will remember for the future).
I calmly separated both. Sophie stayed in one bedroom for 40 minutes and Elsie has been in her "home base" bedroom for a couple hours.
The tuna routine has apparently worked - Sophie's been rubbing the walls outside Elsie's room and chirping - presumably for tuna that she only gets when Elsie comes out.

 

[shadowsrescue]

The charge may not be such a bad thing if it stops at that.  Yet if it escalates to a full blown fight then that's another story.  Keep separating if it gets to a point where you can tell a fight is going to happen.  Watch body language; swishing tail, posturing, ears flat and of course growling, hissing or yowling. 

You are working so hard.  I just know they will all coexist beautifully soon.

 

[ert1988]

Thank you again, @ShadowsRescue.  I had my emotional breakdown last night after a somewhat more tense day, and after Sophie refused the Composure liquid mixed in with tuna.  I'll keep her on Bach's Rescue Remedy and will keep trying Composure out on Elsie, who will so far eat food mixed in with it.  I also ordered the new Feliway Multicat Diffuser, which will get here any day.  This differs from the original formula in the sense that it emits the same pheromones that a mother cat emits to her kittens to promote comfort and bonding.  The original pheromone mimics what a cat emits when it rubs its face on a surface.

Objectively, our situation really isn't that bad or that abnormal.  There have been zero fights and zero indication that they are close to escalating.  It's just weary cats who switch between vying for dominance or slinking away in a submissive posture.  It's just very defeating when everyone started off on the right notes and we appeared to have achieved coexistence between all 3.

I appreciate everyone's advice and involvement in this matter.  I know this is a common topic on this forum with much already documented.

 

[shadowsrescue]

I had many many breakdowns during intros.  It is hard and it takes its toll on the entire household.  Just do your best to stay calm.  I found that when I was stressed, it upset the cats too.  I had my DS and DH take over for a weekend once and it really made all the difference.  They were much more calm than myself and the cats reacted better to them.  Once I began to stay calm, the cats followed suit.

Did you try mixing the composure in with regular wet food? My cats don't even know it's in there.  You also could try the treat formula.  Some cats like the treats better, but it takes a lot of treats.

 

[ert1988]

@ShadowsRescue, I stay calmer in the moment than my husband and tend to have a better intuition about what to do.  Because of that, we both agree that I should take charge, but he also said that I need time to walk away and take a break so nights like last night don't happen.  He's right.  He's also taken over all of the litter box cleaning, food and water refills, etc. to help balance our workloads. 

Yes, I tried their wet food and tuna.  Sophie had one full dose of Composure mixed in with tuna yesterday afternoon, but refused her wet food at bedtime with a second dose mixed in.  I then tried it mixed in tuna again, which she also refused.  I'll give it a couple days and try again.  Elsie is picky, but is so far eating it.  She's eating more cautiously, so I can tell she's tasting it.  Worst case, Sophie seems to react positively to the Bach's Rescue Remedy, so I'll likely stick with that over the treats (unless I notice a huge improvement with Elsie).