Thinking of Rehoming...

[twinka]

Hi there! the herding breeds can be quite a challenge sometime(I have two german shepheds). I am not sure from your post whether this is your first dog or puppy, but you really need some help. I am not aware of a collie specific board, but I am on a GSD board that has alot of advice for training these sorts of dogs, and how to deal with thier behavior. (http://www.germanshepherds.com/ubbth...ubbthreads.php
that being said, there is almost too many things you really need to know about having a dog and training it out of these behaviours.
The first is, there is nothing wrong with the dog. SHe is bored and should not be left outside by herself all day. It is inconisderate to her and to your neighbors. That being said, she is puppy and obviously she is not ready to be left alone in the house. Therefore you need to get her a crate and train her into it. This is not a punishment! My dogs go into their crates all the time on their own.. it is like their den. But when they are young it also keeps them out of trouble.
Most importantly she is probably not getting enough exersize.. either physical or mental. THese are intelligent animals.. they need a challenge and they like to learn new things. If you cannot find a good trainer around, get a book! Again, if you go on the webboard i mentioned above there are tons of information about training, behaviour, as well as good references for books and videos that can help. It is a pretty nice group.
the previous comments about kongs etc (to give her something to work her jaw) are all good. She is still teething and needs to have something to chew on. RAW marrow bones are good as well.
Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, you made a hasty decision to bring her into your life. I can tell you that my dogs are 4 and 2 and I still train them daily (little things here and there) because they like to learn. So if you decide to keep her understand that you will never be "done" with training. However, it does get easier and it is quite fun once you get going. A collie is a smart breed, so once she figures out what you want, she will be game.
(btw.. alpha rolling a puppy who is just being a puppy is about as appropriate as smacking a two year old for being a two year old. it is not a good way to generate a trusting relationship with a young animal. she is acting this way because no one has told her how she should act. it is your job to teach her who you want her to be).

 

[aussie_dog]

Also wanted to say that we've tried the alpha roll on Jake and that was a big mistake. The last time I did it with him, I was AFRAID, because I was sitting on him for what felt like forever, just waiting for him to stop getting nippy on my forearms. And when he finally calmed down, if I started to get up, it'd start all over again. Don't use the Alpha roll on any dog, it's only appropriate when used by a DOG.

 

[KitEKats4Eva!]

Originally Posted by Aussie_Dog

Also wanted to say that we've tried the alpha roll on Jake and that was a big mistake. The last time I did it with him, I was AFRAID, because I was sitting on him for what felt like forever, just waiting for him to stop getting nippy on my forearms. And when he finally calmed down, if I started to get up, it'd start all over again. Don't use the Alpha roll on any dog, it's only appropriate when used by a DOG.

Dog behaviour and heirarchy is soooo complex we should not try to mimic it because we really won't know what they actually use it for. Besides, even dogs don't alpha roll other dogs. Out of all the outdated, most pointless, typically ignorant human things we can do with dogs, that is the worst.

Also, Collies are a particularly sensitive breed, so you don't want to do something that will damage your dog's trust in you irreversibly.

The whole point of alpha behaviour is that it is NOT forceful, NOT physical, NOT aggressive. Alphas do not need to be any of these things to have leadership qualities, and flailing around shouting, alpha rolling, and so forth, just shows you to be a weak and indecisive leader. Calmness, quiet authority and absolute confidence is what shows you are a leader to a dog.

Besides, so much is attributed to the `new craze' (IMO) of dominance training and alpha behaviour in dogs. It's not necessary. Things like barking and peeing in the house and digging are now being called dominance behaviours. They're not. They're doggy behaviours. Dogs are opportunists. They will continue to execute a behaviour from which they get a pay-off. Work out the pay-off and stop it, and your dog will stop the behaviour. It's really that simple!

 

[sharky]

The dog needs TRAINING as many have mentioned... Personally I use different techniques with each dog ..Petsmart has a good basic training which doesnt cost much and you get someone to help

.. NONE of which are physical ( cept for Gigi and rolling her once

)

 

[2dogmom]

Its a shame that we got off on the "dominance" tangent (probably thanks to that bad advice about the "alpha roll", because there is nothing so far to suggest that the dog is exhibiting bad behavior out of dominance. I would also be very careful about using Cesar Milan's methods. He is highly controversial, and his "strength" is that he can deal with what are considered lost causes. The barking issue sounds like an easy on to solve-OP has received some good advice. Most of the issues I have seen in dogs can be solved by four things:

1) lots of exercise
2) plenty of human interaction
3) NILIF
4) understanding how dogs think.

I do not want to go off on a tangent on the last one, but the #1 reason dogs go in the house is because some fool human made the mistake of scolding the dog while he/she was in the act, thinking the dog will comprehend that "peeing in the house is bad". Instead the dog registers "when mom/dad sees me pee, he/she gets angry", so they start getting sneaky about going in the house so as not to be seen.

Anyway, a little effort goes a long way with dogs. They are appreciative and unless they have serious problems WANT to please their owners so it is actually pretty easy.

 

[loveysmummy]

Originally Posted by DixieDarlin256

Well I have used this with every dog I have ever had. My father and I were registered AKC Breeders and trainers of Black Labs in Kentucky for 13 years. Also, this is how the SPCA recommends training them.

Again, this behaviour does not warrant any display of dominance...The behaviours this dog is exhibiting have nothing to do with dominance...

And if they did, sorry but I would never recommend a trainer that still followed this protocol. Please let me know where this type of "training" (especially for these behaviours) is espoused or endorsed by the SPCA or direct us to the source.

Being a registered AKC breeder essentially means nothing in terms of being a qualified trainer. Heck, it doesn't even mean one is a qualified breeder.

I ditto all that has been said here about positive reinforcement training.
It may be effective for some trainers to scare their dogs into submission but this isn't true behaviour of a "leader" of the pack.
Leaders of the pack are calm, unfettered, quiet, and fair.
Even dogs don't use methods like these so I never understood why this was a part of a training regime....As mentioned, its now considered quite an antiquated method...

 

[aussie_dog]

Someone I REALLY like regarding dogs and how to train them or understand how they think/behave, is Stanley Coren. His books are great and really informative. I have one right now that talks about dogs' body behaviours and how they think, and I'm planning to get more. He used to have a TV show that was seriously helpful (so many things I've done with Jake have been based from his show, since I usually need to SEE something rather than imagine it)

 

[loveysmummy]

I agree. I love that funny lil eccentric guy...I love how he demonstrates so effectively with his own dogs and uses simple no-nonsense approaches to training..I would recommend his show to anyone. I think it still shows on Sundays on the Life network. He lives in Vancouver IIRC..

 

[juliekit]

Sorry I havent responded so long, ive just been very busy with my girl.

I want to clear up a few things though. I do love my dog. She does get alot of attention, and she does get to be inside. She is crate trained to a tee. She can be anywhere in the house or yard and when I say 'crate' she will dash happily into it. I place her crate outside when she is out and often times she will just lay there with the door open.

Lizzie is outside from the time I go to work (8) until I come home for lunch at one. I feed her, play with her and give her a good run around before going to work. At 5 I get home, and maybe give her a snack of canned (she needs to put on weight) and play with her again, and if my moms Golden wants to jopin in she gets play time also.

Maybe Lizzie is bored, but you can bet I have tried everything to ensure she is not. She has a Kong, several tennis balls, stuffies, you name it she has it. Also, my moms Golden is there with her, so you would think she would have better things to do. I understand that this will not replace human interaction, but I have to give her something while I am away.

If you were to see my yard you would laugh. It looks horrible. Our yard isnt flat, and she has a little hill at the corner of the fence where she loves to stand, and when she sees something particularly interesting she will take off from that spot, under the walk-way and up the other side. There isnt a patch of grass on that little path that she uses. All there is is mud and her pawprints.

But just to update we are still working very vigorously with her. She knows Mom does not want her to do this because she will bark and stop, look at me and keep going. If I tell her quiet she will try and quiet down, usually for a few seconds which is when I reward her. She knows, but I definately think its more of a self control thing.

**Just wanted to add: I do not agree with the CM crowd. Alpha rolling is not the way to go. I4ts a good way to make an agressive dog bite and a fearful dog even worse. Lizzie is so sensitive, if I ever alpha rolled her or hit her she would never get near me again!

 

[kittycorner]

I completely understand what you are going through. I too always believed that you never gave up on an animal, we are here to help them. I have since changed my mind on this matter. Back in June my husband witnessed a 1 week old Australian Shepherd puppy be tossed out of a moving car window, being the animal lovers we are, we decided to keep him and do whatever it too to keep him alive. He did great for a while, we went on vacation in early September and he was crate trained, 90% potty trained and was a happy puppy. When we came home after 2 weeks, he no longer would go in the crate, started peeing all over the house and always had this look like we were going to beat him.
We started puppy class right away and I am telling you in the 6 weeks that we attended he only ever learned "sit", which he already had down perfect before starting the classes. About a month or so ago, we had finally had it with his antics, we were taking him out to potty every hour and one day after going outside, he immediatly came in an peed all over my white couch!

At that point we had been working so hard with him and it just set me over the edge. My husband reminded me he was just a puppy and that they do these things, but I found myself constantly mad at him all the time. I didn't even enjoy his company anymore. A few weeks later, late one night my husband was up on the computer, and Angus walked up, licked my husband on the leg and the little jerk, lifted his leg and peed all over my husband! At that point we both realized that he must no longer be happy, and we were no longer happy, so he was not going to work in our family. We also are expecting our first child soon and the added stress of getting him under control was more than my doctor felt was good for my stress level. We decided that the best thing for Angus was to find him a home where he would be happy, not for us but for him. We gave him to a friend of mine who has 3 dogs already and a 2 yr. old son who LOVES Angus. It was working fine, then I got a call a few days ago and they too were starting to have potty problems with him, he now will come in from outside to specifically pee in her house, and when they go to repremand him for misbehaving, he tries to bite them. My friend and I are both vet techs so I know they are not beating him, I am just not sure what the hell went wrong with him. They are now trying to find him another home, where maybe once again he will be happy. I don't feel like I did the wrong thing, because I know my husband and I did all we could, he just has behavioral issues that even Dr. Phil could not solve. I hope he someday finds a home that he is happy with, but my gut says he will probably end up in a shelter someday because he will not stop peeing in the house. I hope that your puppy will work out better than Angus did with us, but I want you to know that I understand and sympathize with what you are going through. And is finding a new home for her is what is best for her than , I honestly belive you would be doing the right thing.

 

[KitEKats4Eva!]

Originally Posted by JulieKit

I feed her, play with her and give her a good run around before going to work. At 5 I get home, and maybe give her a snack of canned (she needs to put on weight) and play with her again, and if my moms Golden wants to jopin in she gets play time also.

Well, it sounds like you are working very hard except for this. Is this the only exercise she gets? If so, there is your problem. `A good run around' is not exercise. Exercise is a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour of walking or running on leash away from the home, preferably twice-daily, to give your dog what she needs in terms of physical work. She is probably backflipping with unused energy. Especially a Collie. If she never gets out of the backyard or your house, she is probably not getting anywhere near enough stimulation.

Think about how you would feel, if all you had, was the same place, day in, day out, every day, all day, all the time. I did it once. I put myself out the back with a ball, for two hours. I was not allowed inside, I told Max not to talk to me, I just went out there by myself. By the end of that time out there I wanted to cry. And most dogs have this 24/7 - often without anything at all to do.

Your dog has another dog, toys and a ball, and lots of human time. But if she never gets out, she could probably care less about that stuff. They've got to get OUT, and they've got to be exercised until they're tired. There's a couple of sayings - the first is, the outside world is a doggy newspaper. All the different things they get to see, smell and do is great stimulation for them, lets them know what's going on in the world.

The other saying that comes to mind is `a tired dog is a happy dog'. If you only do two play sessions per day with your dog, and don't take her for actual walks, or to dog parks or anywhere she can run freely and get some hard, consistent, aerobic exercise, then you do not have a dog that's as happy as it can be.

Also, her looking at you, stopping and then keeping on barking just means that NOT barking is not as fun to her as barking. You haven't made the pay-off for NOT barking good enough. Until it is, she'll continue to bark. Train her in some tricks, PLEASE get her out of the house and take her for walks, make her tired, and you'll find things easier.

Originally Posted by kittycorner

They are now trying to find him another home, where maybe once again he will be happy. I don't feel like I did the wrong thing, because I know my husband and I did all we could, he just has behavioral issues that even Dr. Phil could not solve.

To me, that's just sad. I actually think your reasons for rehoming him in the first place, in terms of your pregnancy and so forth, were probably sound. But the issues that he has can be solved, are solved every day by professionals, and constantly shifting him around is not the way to do it. Did you actually try a behaviourist before you let him go? If so, then you did not do `everything you could'. If you are vet techs, did he get checked for any physical problems? Was he neutered? The issue you describe is so common, happens all the time, and people help their dogs and train them and change their behaviours. They don't just keep passing them around for other people to dump when it gets too hard.

9 months is the exact age when dogs will start to test their boundaries and become almost impossible to get through to. It's called adolescence. I sure hope you don't dump your child when it becomes a teenager, because the issues you'll have to deal with then will be a lot worse than the ones you faced with your poor dog. Inappropriate toileting is one of the main reasons behaviourists and professional trainers are consulted. Believe me, I've seen worse dogs than yours. I hope that one of the many homes this puppy ends up in takes the time to understand why he is doing this, and then gets him the help he needs. Poor little guy.

 

[kittycorner]

"To me, that's just sad. I actually think your reasons for rehoming him in the first place, in terms of your pregnancy and so forth, were probably sound. But the issues that he has can be solved, are solved every day by professionals, and constantly shifting him around is not the way to do it. Did you actually try a behaviourist before you let him go? If so, then you did not do `everything you could'. If you are vet techs, did he get checked for any physical problems? Was he neutered? The issue you describe is so common, happens all the time, and people help their dogs and train them and change their behaviours. They don't just keep passing them around for other people to dump when it gets too hard."

Well someone has strong opinions now don't we! I actually did EVERYTHING we could for him, I had him neutered, our trainer was actually run by the animal behaviorist in town and even they said we did everything we could, we had him checked for any medical problems, he came out clean. I agree with you that people tend to "dump" animals way too quickly, but sometimes it is necessary for both parties! I wish he could find a home where he is happy and not have to be tossed from family to family. I truly do not feel bad, we did what was best for all involved and I certainly do not appreciate my decision being questioned and criticized, as well as other feel the same way I am sure. It is NEVER easy to have to give up a pet, but sometimes those hard decisions have to be made, and the more support the better!

 

[KitEKats4Eva!]

Originally Posted by kittycorner

Well someone has strong opinions now don't we! I actually did EVERYTHING we could for him, I had him neutered, our trainer was actually run by the animal behaviorist in town and even they said we did everything we could, we had him checked for any medical problems, he came out clean. I agree with you that people tend to "dump" animals way too quickly, but sometimes it is necessary for both parties! I wish he could find a home where he is happy and not have to be tossed from family to family. I truly do not feel bad, we did what was best for all involved and I certainly do not appreciate my decision being questioned and criticized, as well as other feel the same way I am sure. It is NEVER easy to have to give up a pet, but sometimes those hard decisions have to be made, and the more support the better!

Fair enough - and I did say in the beginning that I thought your reasons were probably sound. And yes, I do have very strong opinions. Volunteering at shelters, working with dogs on a daily basis, and seeing the crueltly and neglect makes me that way. I won't apologise for strong opinions, not now, not ever, not when they are derived from a concern for welfare. I am sure that you know exactly where I am coming from, being a vet tech.

Nobody likes to have their actions questioned or criticised, I do agree with you that support is what you need, yes. I was more angry that you had mentioned that he looked like he was going to be rehomed again and `probably end up in a shelter', than at you for rehoming him in the first instance, although I did not make that clear in my post.

I have had to rehome one of my cats, and it was the hardest, most heartbreaking thing I've ever had to do. Pets are NOT disposable, but, like you, we did it for HER happiness. She too, went to friends of ours, same as your dog. So I do understand and I probably did come off a bit harsh - again, because I see irresponsible people abandoning dogs every day, for reasons similar to yours, only the difference is, they don't actually really try anything to fix it.

So I apologise if I upset you with my somewhat aggressive post - that was not necessarily fair, but I won't apologise for having strong opinions, because it's my view that having strength of conviction and speaking out against injustice is the only way things will change in this world.

 

[wookie130]

Kittycorner, you did a wonderful thing by giving that poor pup a chance in your family. It is clear to me that he was easily stressed, and could possibly have some serious emotional issues. For Christ's sake, you witnessed him being tossed out a car window at the age of one week...he suffered severe trauma, was not alloted ANY time under the guidance of his mother...it's no wonder why this animal requires a special home that meets him halfway with UNDYING PATIENCE. My fear for him, is that he will continue being bounced around different homes, his real issues will never be addressed, and that eventually, someone will decide that he needs to be euthanized. How absolutely tragic. I'll pray he can find a family that can devote the time, patience, and tremendous effort that will be required for him to be a healthy forever member of someone's home.

JulieKit, I really do feel for you. It sounds like you really are doing the best you can with your Collie girl. I personally do feel that 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. is a long time for a dog to be left outside alone without interaction, and I still do feel that a lot of the barking behavior may be a boredom thing. Trust me, I know we all have to work for a living, and there are times when the dog must be left alone. I'm wondering if you couldn't look into a dog sitter, or a dog walking service that will allow someone to interact with her during the time you're away, even if just for an hour or two. Perhaps from 10 a.m. until noon. You never know, it may help.