things escalating with my senior, Milo...yowling/confusion?

[KarinCatLady]

oh my gosh, my poor Milo is having a hard night and therefore so is everyone else...
the lounge where he sleeps (with hubby so he's not alone), was very hot - hubby has a tv, ps5 that might've been contributing plus having the window on a safety latch so not open that much, and just a fan (we're in the UK so it usually isn't necessary to have aircon).
I had to bring the juniors into the bedroom with me (it's cooler in here as I've had two fans and the door open for a while) so the lounge can ventilate.
Having said that, it might be influencing Milo's meowing BUT he was doing this before the heat increased the last day or two.
He meows in the room and when let out, he will be quiet for a minute or two, and then start meowing and yowling again. It is very distressing to not know what to do.
We've put a beahar calming treatment on him and it doesn't seem to be touching the sides at all. It helped at the start of the year with some changes we had, but it seems like things have progressed with him - he was diagnosed CKD when we went to check if there was a medical issue for his behaviours, and now we're wondering if he's got dementia (someone in another post said to check for hyperthiroidism which we will mention to the vet but for now we don't know and his test results were all OK except for the CKD and a slight heart murmur that hasn't been looked into further at this point).
He is distressed and so are we....
what can we do to help him? we don't have any meds and it's 1am here in the UK...
we are at a loss for our poor bubba...

 

[dianajune]

oh my gosh, my poor Milo is having a hard night and therefore so is everyone else...
the lounge where he sleeps (with hubby so he's not alone), was very hot - hubby has a tv, ps5 that might've been contributing plus having the window on a safety latch so not open that much, and just a fan (we're in the UK so it usually isn't necessary to have aircon).
I had to bring the juniors into the bedroom with me (it's cooler in here as I've had two fans and the door open for a while) so the lounge can ventilate.
Having said that, it might be influencing Milo's meowing BUT he was doing this before the heat increased the last day or two.
He meows in the room and when let out, he will be quiet for a minute or two, and then start meowing and yowling again. It is very distressing to not know what to do.
We've put a beahar calming treatment on him and it doesn't seem to be touching the sides at all. It helped at the start of the year with some changes we had, but it seems like things have progressed with him - he was diagnosed CKD when we went to check if there was a medical issue for his behaviours, and now we're wondering if he's got dementia (someone in another post said to check for hyperthiroidism which we will mention to the vet but for now we don't know and his test results were all OK except for the CKD and a slight heart murmur that hasn't been looked into further at this point).
He is distressed and so are we....
what can we do to help him? we don't have any meds and it's 1am here in the UK...
we are at a loss for our poor bubba...

If Milo hasn't had any blood work done to check his thyroid they should do this to see if anything is going on in that area. Has Milo been losing weight? How is he doing with his litter box?

 

[KarinCatLady]

he had blood work done and we asked for the extra work to be done, everything seemed Ok to the doc. I'll attach his summary of tests and everything here but what would we be looking for re the thyroid? like what things in the results...

litterbox - is good, he only uses the one in the lounge - doesn't seem to like the ones in the bedroom or bathroom, but that's OK. He uses it very well (he used to go outside up to when we got him in October and he picked that up very quickly, he's a clever boy).

we are both exhausted from the meowing last night and it's disconcerting the juniors too...and probably the doggies that live in our spare room with their owner (mum in law who is also Milo's previous owner and has never seen the behaviours he's had the past few months).

All this is between end Jan 2024 and now

 

[KarinCatLady]

 

[Alldara]

Some cats work hyperthyroidism have normal T4 levels (what the blood work tests for). There are some other tests for hyperthyroidism.

Thyroid Hormone Testing in Cats | VCA Animal Hospitals

The behaviour changes really do point to medical and not behavioural. Big change in personality and vocalizing...

Though I think the renal issues may cause "dementia" like symptoms as well....

 

[FeebysOwner]

Get the hyper-T ruled out, but I am not sure that it is all that common to have howling with no other more common symptoms. The most common symptom of hyper-T is weight loss and next in line is ravenous appetite. My cat only had weight loss and no other symptoms.

The next thing to check for is arthritis. If Milo does have arthritis, that can cause pain and discomfort which could provoke howling. If arthritis is found, talk to the vet about treatment options, up to and including pain control injections like Adequan or Solensia. Or, at least add a joint support supplement to his regimen.

I'd say there is a possibility that the yowling could be associated with the CKD, in terms of toxin build up in his system which can cause confusion, especially since the vet is categorizing Milo to be Stage 2 or 3. However, one of the most notable signs of toxin build up is phosphorus, and your vet stated there was no increase in his phosphorus level. BUT, the upper range for phosphorus is well above what is considered acceptable for a CKD cat. So, I would find out what Milo's actual level is. According to IRIS, which it seems your vet is familiar with, simply put, a cat with a creatinine level of 310 would be considered Stage 3. At Stage 3 the goal is to keep the phos level below 1.60 mmol/L The higher the phos level the more toxins have built up in the system. Keeping the phos level at or under the goal is also supposed to slow down the progression of CKD.

Aside from all that, if this were to be dementia, there really isn't much in the way of options for treating cats. CBD oil might be something to consider. Otherwise, you would do the same things that you would do if this were simply behavioral - keep the cat's environment calm and comfortable, stick to a routine as cats do better when they have one to count on, pay extra attention to him, and try to soothe him when he is having an 'episode'.

 

[dianajune]

View attachment 476200View attachment 476201

I didn't see any thyroid tests. My doctor runs those for me all the time because I have an underactive thyroid. Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[KarinCatLady]

Get the hyper-T ruled out, but I am not sure that it is all that common to have howling with no other more common symptoms. The most common symptom of hyper-T is weight loss and next in line is ravenous appetite. My cat only had weight loss and no other symptoms.

The next thing to check for is arthritis. If Milo does have arthritis, that can cause pain and discomfort which could provoke howling. If arthritis is found, talk to the vet about treatment options, up to and including pain control injections like Adequan or Solensia. Or, at least add a joint support supplement to his regimen.

I'd say there is a possibility that the yowling could be associated with the CKD, in terms of toxin build up in his system which can cause confusion, especially since the vet is categorizing Milo to be Stage 2 or 3. However, one of the most notable signs of toxin build up is phosphorus, and your vet stated there was no increase in his phosphorus level. BUT, the upper range for phosphorus is well above what is considered acceptable for a CKD cat. So, I would find out what Milo's actual level is. According to IRIS, which it seems your vet is familiar with, simply put, a cat with a creatinine level of 310 would be considered Stage 3. At Stage 3 the goal is to keep the phos level below 1.60 mmol/L The higher the phos level the more toxins have built up in the system. Keeping the phos level at or under the goal is also supposed to slow down the progression of CKD.

Aside from all that, if this were to be dementia, there really isn't much in the way of options for treating cats. CBD oil might be something to consider. Otherwise, you would do the same things that you would do if this were simply behavioral - keep the cat's environment calm and comfortable, stick to a routine as cats do better when they have one to count on, pay extra attention to him, and try to soothe him when he is having an 'episode'.

thanks so much for this! I'll pass it on to hubby

 

[KarinCatLady]

I didn't see any thyroid tests. My doctor runs those for me all the time because I have an underactive thyroid. Correct me if I'm wrong!

no he hasn't had them done. we will ask for them next time.
remember we've only had Milo since October and the problems really started in Jan so still early days with all of this.

 

[dianajune]

no he hasn't had them done. we will ask for them next time.
remember we've only had Milo since October and the problems really started in Jan so still early days with all of this.

I hope you will get this sorted out soon. I'm sorry that you and Milo are going through this! <hugs>

 

[IzzysfureverMom]

KarenCatLady We are going through a very similar here with Izzy here as you are there with Milo.Just crying all night every night, seemed confused and not focus.. No one was getting any sleep including her. Vet did complete blood panel , chemistry panel and blood pressure.
She has a history of asthma and hip arthritis, both being treated.
Her blood pressure was normal
Thyroid levels came back high in the normal range , vet seems to think they will be over range in a couple months at retest.
Kidney levels came back high in the normal range( not as high as thyroid)
She has had a history of one WBC being slightly elevated , but they believe it is anxiety related.
After blood work results she was put on gabapentin until retesting.She sleeps usually until 5:30 am.She comes into bedroom the sometimes cries a little, sometimes gets up and down a little, but most of the time goes to sleep for an hour or more.
Gabapentin also seems to have helped her hips as well. For reference she was 15 in April
Hope for the best with Milo.

 

[KarinCatLady]

KarenCatLady We are going through a very similar here with Izzy here as you are there with Milo.Just crying all night every night, seemed confused and not focus.. No one was getting any sleep including her. Vet did complete blood panel , chemistry panel and blood pressure.
She has a history of asthma and hip arthritis, both being treated.
Her blood pressure was normal
Thyroid levels came back high in the normal range , vet seems to think they will be over range in a couple months at retest.
Kidney levels came back high in the normal range( not as high as thyroid)
She has had a history of one WBC being slightly elevated , but they believe it is anxiety related.
After blood work results she was put on gabapentin until retesting.She sleeps usually until 5:30 am.She comes into bedroom the sometimes cries a little, sometimes gets up and down a little, but most of the time goes to sleep for an hour or more.
Gabapentin also seems to have helped her hips as well. For reference she was 15 in April
Hope for the best with Milo.

thanks for sharing! hope your Izzy is with you for a long time (whatever that means for her!). We hope the same for our Milo.
We have a vet appointment on Wednesday and have sent the vets a detailed list of things we want to discuss so we don't miss anything.

 

[IzzysfureverMom]

Thank you and best of luck for you and Milo Wednesday . We have a while before retest, but I am writing up questions as well.

 

[Eurocat]

Hi there
Sorry if I‘m meowing up the wrong tree and have interpreted the living situation wrongly but it seems that Milo has a new environment with new animal company and a still present but not reachable ex-owner in the next room?
In my experience some animals (especially more anxious ones) tend to start expressing their true feelings and emotions after a couple of months in a new environment as the first months can be primarily about ja feeling of having to survive a stressful change and they are more shutdown. With increasing age change can be even more difficult to deal with. Maybe he‘s expressing his confusion/discomfort regarding his new living circumstances?
What would he be like if he could spend more time or the nights in the same room as his ex owner?

 

[KarinCatLady]

Hi there
Sorry if I‘m meowing up the wrong tree and have interpreted the living situation wrongly but it seems that Milo has a new environment with new animal company and a still present but not reachable ex-owner in the next room?
In my experience some animals (especially more anxious ones) tend to start expressing their true feelings and emotions after a couple of months in a new environment as the first months can be primarily about ja feeling of having to survive a stressful change and they are more shutdown. With increasing age change can be even more difficult to deal with. Maybe he‘s expressing his confusion/discomfort regarding his new living circumstances?
What would he be like if he could spend more time or the nights in the same room as his ex owner?

It's been since October now and he seemed settled with everyone - he does spend some time in ex-owner's room with the dogs but that's not always possible...
with the juniors he would play and groom them - up to when they became toms (they are now neutered) so we had to separate them at that point and it hasn't been the same since...we used to leave them all together in the whole flat and they seemed alright together up to that point...
we also had an issue with a neighbour's kitten being in heat nextdoor which brought territoriality to the fore as he didn't appreciate the toms and other cats in our back garden! nothing we could do about that...
ex owner (my mum in law) moved in in Jan - the babies becoming toms and the female cat in heat, and 2 week into mum in law moving in, everything happened so it's hard to know which came first...
I do believe that there's a medical issue with him and we'll get to the bottom of it...
we are having to tell the vet to get off the "he's a solitary cat" story so it's very sensitive to us to be told that kind of thing as HE IS NOT A SOLITARY CAT - he lived with two cats up to 18 months before he moved in with us and with the three dogs...
his behaviour has changed dramatically and she doesn't recognise him sometimes...it's distressing for all of us...
it is medical and hopefully we can get him help...we will see if we can get him a behaviourist as well just in case but we're discarding the medical first ( see previous replies)

 

[KarinCatLady]

UPDATE ON MILO
- some notes and test results from Wednesday's vet visit
- we have the eye doctor 1hr appointment next Tuesday - his eye looked odd yesterday, like he was struggling to keep it open - one eye round and normal, the other in a semi-closed shape, he looked like he was winking and as far as I know, cat's don't wink, they do the slow blink with two eyes!
- here's what the vet said:

So, no hyper/hypothiroidism to report, keep doing what we're doing.
He gained a tiny bit of weight - from 3.98kg to 4.01kg (which is always good in a CKD cat!)
blood test results:

now to wait for us to take him to get his blood pressure taken, and then to see what the eye doctor tells us

We've softened our approach to having him only in one room as he started to hate it and seemed better off with severely supervised time - if not severly supervised he'll get aggressive with the juniors who are both surprised and not bothered by his behaviour - as in they don't seem traumatised by it and see it as "oh it's him being a grump again" (that's what we're interpreting it as anyway lol)

So if they're sharing the whole flat, we are there to see where everyone is and keep a close eye, usually it's not for long as they will choose different rooms to be in and then we close Milo in with us or the juniors in one room and him in the rest of the house and viceversa - Milo is going outside during the day, so when he's out, the juniors can have free reign of the whole flat and we can rest for a bit
Milo doesn't go out far and it would be torture to not let him out - although i'm not sure how that will continue if he does end up having cognitive disfunction that increases; he is not going out after 7pm now, and learning to "good boy, sit" in the "catio" (pet screen on the front door ) which seems to be doing OK.
We're also using the pet remedy as we saw the vet use it effectively and she recommended it - he calms down a bit easier and seems to be meowing for less time in the lounge - reported by hubby who's keeping him company at night.

Milo is sleeping a lot lot more than he usually did - even for a cat! - it is worrying a bit as it's a change in his behaviour - he spent like 5-6hrs under mum-in-law's chair the other day - at least he's resting but if he's sleeping then he's not eating or drinking anything! he does eat when he gets up; but not sure how much he's getting.

so his aggressive behaviour still medically unaccounted for - just blood pressure and eye exams to do which might or might not reveal anything

in some ways this is good as he's not too bad and he is generally healthy in many ways but he is still not out of the woods yet!

we have an animal behaviourist "on hold" until we do all the checks and will see if hopefully our insurance covers all of it!

any insights into the tests and what I've updated, would be great!

 

[Alldara]

I do note at the bottom that they only did the one hyperthyroidism test, and that they note it can have a false negative so to speak.

Im not familiar enough with CKD stuff to know if the numbers are good or not, or if his numbers could reflect him feeling generally unwell which could cause the aggressive behaviours with the other two. High blood pressure could, if it's that....


Im glad you have something working for you thus far though!

 

[KarinCatLady]

I do note at the bottom that they only did the one hyperthyroidism test, and that they note it can have a false negative so to speak.

Im not familiar enough with CKD stuff to know if the numbers are good or not, or if his numbers could reflect him feeling generally unwell which could cause the aggressive behaviours with the other two. High blood pressure could, if it's that....


Im glad you have something working for you thus far though!

I don't know, I guess they did all the tests they are meant to do? (although from experience with my own doctors, they never do but maybe vets are better than human docs! - sorry about being cynical!)

I have a feeling that something is making him feel generally unwell - but well enough to wander around outside or still be "a normal cat" except when around Cosmo and Malachi...

According to the vet, re: CKD results, he's holding up well and she didn't move him from the iris scale (between 2 or 3) where he measured up back in Feb. So that's good.

I'll keep you all posted and thanks for your replies! it's helpful to "sound off" to you all here

hope we can get to the bottom of this! for his sake first but also for all our sakes!

 

[IzzysfureverMom]

You are doing very well by Milo Hopefully the blood pressure and eye doctor appointment will give you further information. As A Alldara said there are other test for thyroid, but with my one cat I had to ask for those to be done. See what comes back with the pending test. Rescue Remedy can be useful and they may be waiting to try other medications to evaluate the safety given Milos possible and current medical conditions.Best of everything with Milo.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Milo's kidney values are OK for a CKD cat, and his phosphorus is well within the IRIS guideline range. Other than dehydration, I am not sure they would be considered the cause of his behavior. But, as you know, every cat is different in terms of how they react to illnesses/diseases.

Did anything about the possibility of arthritis get discussed? That can cause behavior changes - as pain/discomfort may manifest itself through aggression and generally feeling unwell. As can high blood pressure. So, at least the latter is going to be checked out. Anemia can sometimes be common in CKD cats, was there any discussion about Milo's low RBC and hemoglobin? Sorry, if I missed that there was.

Re: the T-4 - I know that any blood work numbers can be misleading, or reap false positives/negatives, but Milo's T-4 isn't even close to being high. At 23, he doesn't even fall within the 'gray zone' which is usually when it is above 30. If he were to have registered above 30, the vet might have considered doing some additional thyroid testing, but since he didn't, I suspect that is why they didn't. So I think that continued monitoring, with all future blood tests, is probably appropriate.