So What Exactly Is Wrong With Vegan Cat Food?

[saleri]

I don't think approaching the problem by stopping domestic cats from eating meat is the best solution. It's not even realistic. As someone mentioned before, most of the meat that goes into commercial cat food involves by-products or unwanted meat from human grade slaughterhouses, so pets eating commercial pet food is really not at the core of the problem.

I don't think you're really getting the point that if a vegan diet was going to be healthy for cats they wouldn't be carnivores. You're trying to play God here by altering the basic needs of a living creature. This is not the solution.

Okay thank you for your thoughts!

 

[saleri]

BTW I really don't believe in dogs being able to be vegetarian or even *very* omnivorous. Seriously, the dogs I experienced eating grain in their food and veggies (like fresh veggies tossed at them from the kitchen), they all fart and have terrible poop and are overweight. No science here either, but it really doesn't look great and I hate some of these nonsense trends. If you don't want to buy meat-based stuff for the animals, just get a herbivore pet. If you want to promote the absence of slaughterhouses in the world, go get all the carnivorous pets spayed and get their population decreased until they don't exist anymore (and that's provided people have all gone vegan as well by then).

Edit: actually the only cruelty-free way to feed a cat meat would be synthesized meat from laboratories I guess (provided they are exactly the same nutrient-wise than organic meat). But that is no option for a while so stick to the meat until then, please.

Don't know much about dogs, but it does seem much more likely with dogs than cats.

VEGANISM: A TRUTH WHOSE TIME HAS COME: 100 Vegan-Eating Dogs; An encyclopedia of Vegan Dog Nutrition

Wouldn't feed my cats a vegan or vegetarian diet currently, but I could see myself after a lot more research and consulting with vets and nutritionist a dog, if I had one.

 

[1 bruce 1]

"I feed 25% vegan food" sounds like "I'm still 25% virgin". I eat lots of meat myself but I may claim I'm vegan or vegetarian, we'l
, part of me
Cats are not Vegan. They are all named Megan

Or 25% pregnant xD

 

[1 bruce 1]

Don't know much about dogs, but it does seem much more likely with dogs than cats.

VEGANISM: A TRUTH WHOSE TIME HAS COME: 100 Vegan-Eating Dogs; An encyclopedia of Vegan Dog Nutrition

Wouldn't feed my cats a vegan or vegetarian diet currently, but I could see myself after a lot more research and consulting with vets and nutritionist a dog, if I had one.

Dogs can thrive on table scraps and horse poop. Dogs aren't cats, but dogs aren't vegans and consulting a vet or nutritionist when feeding the correct diet is easy wouldn't be worth the time, money, etc.
If ethics are an issue, seek out a good farmer that understands husbandry and buy from them, in bulk, and take scraps and offals.
A lot of "vegan" dogs are also farm dogs, that I'm sure don't pass up the opportunity to eat dead things, kill small things and eat them, etc.
A few of the dogs on the site looked good but some of them looked seriously aged; a "happy" vegan dog smiling for the camera while showing a nice set of brownish teeth isn't good IMO.

 

[saleri]

Dogs can thrive on table scraps and horse poop. Dogs aren't cats, but dogs aren't vegans and consulting a vet or nutritionist when feeding the correct diet is easy wouldn't be worth the time, money, etc.
If ethics are an issue, seek out a good farmer that understands husbandry and buy from them, in bulk, and take scraps and offals.
A lot of "vegan" dogs are also farm dogs, that I'm sure don't pass up the opportunity to eat dead things, kill small things and eat them, etc.
A few of the dogs on the site looked good but some of them looked seriously aged; a "happy" vegan dog smiling for the camera while showing a nice set of brownish teeth isn't good IMO.

mmm, possibly. I probably won't ever get a dog. But it'll be interesting to see in the future as more dogs potentially become vegan and what is done there.

 

[sabrinah]

You mentioned there being many non-scientific points. In my experience, those who advocate for vegan diets for cats don't care about the science. I could go into the lab and photograph various cat skulls and full skeletons, then point out everything about them that indicates they are a strict carnivore. I could then compare those to various types of wild cats, and even venture into dogs and various omnivores skeletal features. I could then move on to skins and do the same. But why would I waste my time? It would take hours to get together the photographs that show every detail (not to mention none of that stuff smells especially great), and it would take an unimaginable amount of time to point out every detail and explain it's function. I could also explain the differences in protein from meat and beans, but again, waste of time. I'm sure there's someone else on the forum that has ample knowledge of the internal workings of felids and canids that could explain the ins and outs of digestion and nutrient absorption better than I could ever hope to but I don't think they have any interest in doing so. All the work would be in vain because no one cares.

Could cats evolve to be omnivores? Sure, if you give it tens of thousands of years. Evolution is not a rapid process. There is currently no cruelty-free way to feed a carnivore, and I highly doubt there ever will be. While it is unfortunate that animals have to die to feed our furry companions, it's just the way it is. I don't eat meat myself but I would never deprive my pets of it. Anyone that doesn't want to feed meat should get a herbivorous pet.

 

[gareth]

Why? If they can find a sustainable and healthy diet to feed their cats, you would be opposed to that? And even if in the worst case scenario that a few cats are somehow harmed in the short term on a improper vegan diet, finding a possible vegan diet for cats will save millions of other animals.

You are promoting animal testing on cats that may lead to some of them dying and would deifnitely lead to a large number of them suffering during research. Are you sure you're on the right website?

Perhaps I'm alone, but if I had one button that said "your cat dies now" and another button that said "every chicken on earth is slaughtered today" you wouldn't even have time to read the text on the chicken button before I pushed it.

Tou don't need to find a possible vegan diet for cats. They have a natural diet. It's meat. Your values are not their values. However, I'm all for choice. Give the cat a live mouse and a piece of cucumber and see if it shares your ethical stance. sorry for being emotive, but I've seen too many animals put down because their owners decided to force their lifestyle choices on their pets.

 

[Neo_23]

You mentioned there being many non-scientific points. In my experience, those who advocate for vegan diets for cats don't care about the science. I could go into the lab and photograph various cat skulls and full skeletons, then point out everything about them that indicates they are a strict carnivore. I could then compare those to various types of wild cats, and even venture into dogs and various omnivores skeletal features. I could then move on to skins and do the same. But why would I waste my time? It would take hours to get together the photographs that show every detail (not to mention none of that stuff smells especially great), and it would take an unimaginable amount of time to point out every detail and explain it's function. I could also explain the differences in protein from meat and beans, but again, waste of time. I'm sure there's someone else on the forum that has ample knowledge of the internal workings of felids and canids that could explain the ins and outs of digestion and nutrient absorption better than I could ever hope to but I don't think they have any interest in doing so. All the work would be in vain because no one cares.

Could cats evolve to be omnivores? Sure, if you give it tens of thousands of years. Evolution is not a rapid process. There is currently no cruelty-free way to feed a carnivore, and I highly doubt there ever will be. While it is unfortunate that animals have to die to feed our furry companions, it's just the way it is. I don't eat meat myself but I would never deprive my pets of it. Anyone that doesn't want to feed meat should get a herbivorous pet.

This is a very good point. Also, why would scientists waste their time on something like this when it's already common knowledge in all scientific circles that cats are obligate carnivores. I don't see any research granting agency putting up funds for a project trying to convert obligate carnivores into herbivores.

 

[orange&white]

You mentioned there being many non-scientific points. In my experience, those who advocate for vegan diets for cats don't care about the science. I could go into the lab and photograph various cat skulls and full skeletons, then point out everything about them that indicates they are a strict carnivore. I could then compare those to various types of wild cats, and even venture into dogs and various omnivores skeletal features. I could then move on to skins and do the same. But why would I waste my time? It would take hours to get together the photographs that show every detail (not to mention none of that stuff smells especially great), and it would take an unimaginable amount of time to point out every detail and explain it's function. I could also explain the differences in protein from meat and beans, but again, waste of time. I'm sure there's someone else on the forum that has ample knowledge of the internal workings of felids and canids that could explain the ins and outs of digestion and nutrient absorption better than I could ever hope to but I don't think they have any interest in doing so. All the work would be in vain because no one cares.

You made good points, none of which are a waste of time.

Doesn't take a lot of science, and doesn't have to be "complete". Teeth are just one of the identifiers that indicate what foods animals are ideally suited to eat:
​

Cat teeth, canines for tearing flesh, no flat molars for grinding vegetable matter = carnivore

Dog teeth, canines for tearing flesh, no flat molars for grinding vegetable matter = carnivore

Black bear teeth, canines for tearing flesh, flat molars for grinding vegetable matter = omnivore

Human teeth, canines for tearing flesh, flat molars for grinding vegetable matter = omnivore

Cow teeth, no canines, all incisors and flat molars = herbivore

Rabbit teeth, no canines, all incisors and flat molars = herbivore

 

[orange&white]

Perhaps I'm alone, but if I had one button that said "your cat dies now" and another button that said "every chicken on earth is slaughtered today" you wouldn't even have time to read the text on the chicken button before I pushed it.

Please don't slaughter every chicken...I need them to make my cats' food.

 

[margd]

This is a very good point. Also, why would scientists waste their time on something like this when it's already common knowledge in all scientific circles that cats are obligate carnivores. I don't see any research granting agency putting up funds for a project trying to convert obligate carnivores into herbivores.

Somewhat OT: Your comment reminded me of something I've not thought about in years. Way back in 1995, I read a just-published online manifesto called The Hedonistic Imperative. The author, a transhumanist philosopher named David Pierce, envisioned using pharmacology, genetic engineering, neurosurgery and nanotechnology to eliminate all suffering on earth. That included redesigning cats to eliminate their prey drive and their dietary requirement for meat. At the time, there was a rather heated discussion among cat lovers about whether or not this was ethical.

Being curious to know if it was still around, I did a search and voila! The Hedonistic Imperative. I don't know how many changes have been incorporated in the last 23 years but the author apparently still sees no place for cats, as they currently exist, on a utopian Earth. (Section 1.10).

Who knows? Had history and science taken a different path, maybe grants really would have funded research to convert obligate carnivores into herbivores. But then again, had history and science taken a different path, I might be able to take a pill and be 20 again!

 

[1 bruce 1]

mmm, possibly. I probably won't ever get a dog. But it'll be interesting to see in the future as more dogs potentially become vegan and what is done there.

Therein is the problem. No dog "becomes vegan." Vegan owners decide their carnivore pets need to be vegans too to suit their agenda and impress their preppy friends, IMO.
If a person is vegan, I'm happy and glad they've found a diet that suits their metobolic AND ethical needs, but look into a dog or cats mouth and you don't see grain/vegetable grinding teeth, you see teeth meant to shred meat and crush bone. Perhaps there are those feeding vegan diets to dogs because they feel THEY had such good results, surely their pets will too, but there are differences in species.
As I stated and will stand by until the day I die, if someone feeds their cat or dog vegan food, they're given praise but if someone should be stupid enough to feed sheep or horses BBQ ribs or chicken thighs, they'd be arrested and all over social media as disgusting.

ETA: We have vegetarian friends that feed their dogs a raw diet. They patronize a local farmer because of his good practices and avoidances of GMO's, pesticides, and the like. I have no greater respect for anyone on this earth than of those who decide meat eating isn't for them yet realize the needs of their pet carnivores. Those who force beliefs on beings that can't speak or can't grab the car keys to go grab Micky-D's if they're hungry for meat probably aren't thinking of their pets needs, only their own.
Again JMO.

 

[1 bruce 1]

This is a very good point. Also, why would scientists waste their time on something like this when it's already common knowledge in all scientific circles that cats are obligate carnivores. I don't see any research granting agency putting up funds for a project trying to convert obligate carnivores into herbivores.

Because pet food industry is about money.
If there are enough owners who think their healthy cats "NEED" to be vegan to suit the ridiculous ideas of their owners, many companies will latch onto this idea and provide a "complete and balanced" vegan "diet".
I'm not bashing pet food companies, but pet food is a business that relies on competitive marketing and sometimes making really stupid decisions to sell food to un-educated owners.

 

[1 bruce 1]

You made good points, none of which are a waste of time.

Doesn't take a lot of science, and doesn't have to be "complete". Teeth are just one of the identifiers that indicate what foods animals are ideally suited to eat:
​

Cat teeth, canines for tearing flesh, no flat molars for grinding vegetable matter = carnivore

Dog teeth, canines for tearing flesh, no flat molars for grinding vegetable matter = carnivore

Black bear teeth, canines for tearing flesh, flat molars for grinding vegetable matter = omnivore
p
Human teeth, canines for tearing flesh, flat molars for grinding vegetable matter = omnivore

Cow teeth, no canines, all incisors and flat molars = herbivore

Rabbit teeth, no canines, all incisors and flat molars = herbivore

I would give you a gold star if I had one =)
I feed raw, but I've fed BARF before. My dog and cats teeth look best on a diet of PMR or frankenprey. When I feed vegetables (finely ground), their teeth started developing a weird "film" after 2-3 weeks or so. When the vegetable slop was stopped, the teeth cleared up.
I feel not only tooth structure (what are the teeth there to do?) but the overall health of the teeth is important. If you're feeding a diet that creates an alarmingly high amount of buildup, tartar, plaque and inflamed gums, chances are the problems with that food don't magically "End" at the mouth. If you're feeding a diet that keeps the teeth clean, free of garbage and white, and the gums are pink, healthy, and tight at the gum/tooth line, you're doing something right...

 

[1 bruce 1]

You mentioned there being many non-scientific points. In my experience, those who advocate for vegan diets for cats don't care about the science. I could go into the lab and photograph various cat skulls and full skeletons, then point out everything about them that indicates they are a strict carnivore. I could then compare those to various types of wild cats, and even venture into dogs and various omnivores skeletal features. I could then move on to skins and do the same. But why would I waste my time? It would take hours to get together the photographs that show every detail (not to mention none of that stuff smells especially great), and it would take an unimaginable amount of time to point out every detail and explain it's function. I could also explain the differences in protein from meat and beans, but again, waste of time. I'm sure there's someone else on the forum that has ample knowledge of the internal workings of felids and canids that could explain the ins and outs of digestion and nutrient absorption better than I could ever hope to but I don't think they have any interest in doing so. All the work would be in vain because no one cares.

Could cats evolve to be omnivores? Sure, if you give it tens of thousands of years. Evolution is not a rapid process. There is currently no cruelty-free way to feed a carnivore, and I highly doubt there ever will be. While it is unfortunate that animals have to die to feed our furry companions, it's just the way it is. I don't eat meat myself but I would never deprive my pets of it. Anyone that doesn't want to feed meat should get a herbivorous pet.

I think there's a huge misrepresentation of "domestication" and "evolution" of species floating around there. It's why people think hand raised Tigers or Wolves will make a good pet, and then they sit around and wonder why that animal, once they hit sexual maturity, "turn" on the owner "out of the blue" and "no one ever saw it coming...they used to be such nice pets", etc.
You're right on when it comes to evolution of a species, and we won't see cats turning herbivorous in our lifetime. And if they do, they won't be what I would consider cats, no more than a herbivorous dog would be considered a dog.
There's a reason herbivores and carnivores differ in behavior; wave something new and flashy and shiny in front of my dogs or cats and they'll lunge for it and "kill" it; wave something new and flashy and shiny in front of my herbivore horses, cattle or sheep and they'll run for the hills to save their hides.
I wonder if dogs or cats became herbivores if that instinct that makes them dogs and cats would be lost.
I'm working with a dog now that's a complete spook and it's no picnic, the smallest things spook him and he does remind me of a sheep. Presented with something new, he runs rather than investigates.
If dogs and cats become a spooky species that run from anything new, I hope I'm long dead of old age as I'd hate that...evolution won't stop at the digestive tract, and I fear we'll sacrifice more important traits that separate cats from cattle or dogs from sheep if we screw with their inner workings, many hundreds of years down the road.

 

[Kelise]

I just want to touch on the evolution thing here. Evolution is about reproduction. Cats are not going to evolve to become more omnivorous. Dogs got to do that because they evolved from wolves naturally. Like another poster correctly said, dogs came from wolves who had a short flight distance from humans. The dogs that stuck around closest to humans got their scraps. They evolved naturally to basically eat what we eat (or rather, what we used to eat at the time they were becoming a species). The reproduction of cats is determined pretty much two ways. 1) Humans decide which cats have babies. This won't be based on which ones do best on an omnivorous diet. It'll be based on which ones are purebred, have good temperaments, etc. 2) Feral cats reproduce naturally. Well, feral cats aren't eating omnivorous diets. They are hunting and killing prey. Maybe there is a tiny chance that over thousands and thousands of years, people's pets that are indoor/outdoor could tip the scale a bit. If every cat was fed an omnivorous/vegan/whatever diet, perhaps the ones that did better on it would reproduce more than those that did poorly.

@1bruce1, their behavior wouldn't change either if they became omnivorous somehow. It's worth mentioning that cats are not *just* predators. They are also prey. And you can already see that in their behavior. They don't act like sheep or cattle, but they do act like prey. They like dark hiding places, they feel exposed in open areas, etc. Spooky behavior comes from animals evolving with selection pressures involving predators. Animals more likely to run at the smallest hint of danger survive longer and have more offspring, etc. Really nothing to do with diet.

I agree with those that use the physiology of the cat to determine what it can eat. It's very obvious that cats eat meat. Even if it was possible to adapt a vegan diet for them, I seriously doubt that we understand the body and nutrition well enough to truly understand the affects this would have on an animal. Aside from the fact that a cat just can't digest plant matter, there are others issues that vegans sometimes ignore. If every person AND every pet became vegan, we would never be able to feed everyone for a multitude of reasons.

I always say it. Don't want an animal with claws? Don't get a cat. Don't want an animal that barks? Don't get a dog. Don't want an animal that eats meat? Don't get an animal that eats meat.

 

[furmonster mom]

Since it's been brought up...

This compilation of articles was written by a zoologist several years ago... since BARF started becoming more popular for dogs, and raw feeding for cats was also beginning to catch on.

The first of many myths about raw feeding for dogs...
Myth: Dogs are Omnivores

Neither dogs nor cats should be fed a vegan, or even vegetarian, diet.

Something else to consider; carnivores (not just dogs or cats) fit a very large part of the natural ecology. Just because we've domesticated a few of them doesn't change their biological or physiological function.

 

[Kelise]

Clarification: I don't think dogs are truly omnivores. But I do think they have a better capacity to deal with non-meat foods than cats. This is evidenced in that dogs do way better on a higher carbohydrate diet than cats among other things. They don't get obese as easily on grains, they get diabetes a lot less, etc.

This article supports that: Are Dogs Carnivores or Omnivores? Here's What New Research Says

Dogs are carnivores. But they are capable of eating the kinds of stuff we eat. It doesn't do them innate harm like it does a cat. So, all in all, I think feeding a dog a vegan diet is not a good idea but I think feeding a cat a vegan diet is an atrocious idea. A dog could deal with it, but those nutrients are not very available to it, so it wouldn't get what it needed. Just to a lesser degree than a cat.

 

[neely]

I'd like to offer my personal opinion to saleri in the hope that the O.P. will understand I can relate to her individual choices but not her cat's diet. I am vegetarian and my oldest adult daughter is vegan. She has a nutrition background, works in that field and eats a plant based diet. However, we have both chosen that diet/lifestyle for ourselves. Neither one of us believes a cat should be fed a vegan diet.

Both my daughter and I have met Colleen Patrick-Goudreau in person, i.e. the woman in the video posted by orange&white , and heard her speak at an event in our area in October 2015. She concurrently states what was written in this article by Urban Vegan titled - The Cold Hard Truth. Vegan Cat Food: The Cold Hard Truth

In addition, our dog was not fed a vegan diet either even though there is a vegan kibble specifically designed for canines. It is called V-Dog food. We offered our dog raw fruits and veggies as treats, e.g. cut up bananas, strawberries, carrots, but not on a regular basis or as a supplement.

 

[Willowy]

I think you can make a reasonable vegetarian diet for a cat, egg-based. Eggs are a very good source of animal protein. Some extremely allergic cats have to go on an egg-based diet and they do OK. So that would be a lot of work but I think it's do-able. Not vegan though.

Dogs ARE canivores but not obligate carnivores. I have heard of dogs living a long life on a vegan diet. . .I'm not fond of the idea but it's possible.

One thing to think about is how processed a vegan carnivore diet would have to be. A lot of vegans don't like processed foods. But that's the only way it could be done. A cat fed an unprocessed vegan diet would die pretty quickly.