S. Boulardii question

[tabbytom]

Hi, I found this post while searching for info about S Boulardii...my boy doesn't have IBD or chronic diarrhea in past, but with a food change a couple months ago, his poo has changed to what you describe above, tabbytom . It's been pasty, mushy, sometimes a little diarrhea, not as firm as it used to be. The 2 new ingredients in his food are coconut oil and agar agar, which I tried to avoid but haven't found a good canned alternative for him yet. Would you mind letting me know if the food you feed your cat also has either of those ingredients, agar agar or coconut oil? I am suspecting that is what's causing mine to have subpar poo quality, because he was fine before the food change.

Then I wonder, if this is happening because of the food ingredients, would S Boulardii still be of any help? He currently is taking different probiotic strains with his food.

Thanks in advance for reading...I find that I learn more from real-life cat parent experiences, than from what the pet food companies tell me about ingredient safety.

there.

Sometimes with food change, it’ll cause tummy upsets if the transition is not done properly or it could be the cat’s system cannot adjust or accept to the new food even after awhile. If your cat does not have IBD or chronic diarrhea when on his normal food before the change, I suspect it could be due to the change of food.

My boy is eating Fussie Cat Super Premium - Chicken Formula in Gravy. It does not have coconut oil but it does have Xanthan Gum which is another form of agar agar as a thickener and stabilizer.

Does his old food have this two ingredients. If it doesn’t, it could be the culprit as the new food has it. I think there is no harm putting him on the S. Boulardii that my boy is using. My boy’s poo is now firm and nice and he has his daily 1/4 dose of S Boulardii once in the morning and once in the evening.

 

[misterginja]

there.

Sometimes with food change, it’ll cause tummy upsets if the transition is not done properly or it could be the cat’s system cannot adjust or accept to the new food even after awhile. If your cat does not have IBD or chronic diarrhea when on his normal food before the change, I suspect it could be due to the change of food.

My boy is eating Fussie Cat Super Premium - Chicken Formula in Gravy. It does not have coconut oil but it does have Xanthan Gum which is another form of agar agar as a thickener and stabilizer.

Does his old food have this two ingredients. If it doesn’t, it could be the culprit as the new food has it. I think there is no harm putting him on the S. Boulardii that my boy is using. My boy’s poo is now firm and nice and he has his daily 1/4 dose of S Boulardii once in the morning and once in the evening.

Thanks for your reply! I do worry about the plant-based thickeners that get added to the foods, since cats aren't designed to digest them well... now looking back, years ago when he was on a raw diet, there was coconut oil in the ingredients, in a lesser amount than now though. At that time he didn't have issues from it. The Feline Natural canned food he was eating for a couple of years after that did not have coconut oil & he also was fine.

But his previous food in the 9 years I've known him has never had agar-agar in it, maybe that is the culprit since he was better on the food that didn't contain it. We did a slow 10-day transition to the new Identity brand food and it's been a couple months now without improvement, so he's having trouble adjusting. Food choices are limited since he has CKD...wish I could put him back on his previous food!

I will give the S. Boulardii a try, thanks so much for sharing your experience with it.

 

[tabbytom]

I will give the S. Boulardii a try, thanks so much for sharing your experience with it.

You are welcomed.
I hope your cat get better soon.

Give this article a good read :-My Cat Has Diarrhea - What Do I Do?

 

[daftcat75]

Thanks for your reply! I do worry about the plant-based thickeners that get added to the foods, since cats aren't designed to digest them well... now looking back, years ago when he was on a raw diet, there was coconut oil in the ingredients, in a lesser amount than now though. At that time he didn't have issues from it. The Feline Natural canned food he was eating for a couple of years after that did not have coconut oil & he also was fine.

But his previous food in the 9 years I've known him has never had agar-agar in it, maybe that is the culprit since he was better on the food that didn't contain it. We did a slow 10-day transition to the new Identity brand food and it's been a couple months now without improvement, so he's having trouble adjusting. Food choices are limited since he has CKD...wish I could put him back on his previous food!

I will give the S. Boulardii a try, thanks so much for sharing your experience with it.

Too much coconut oil can give me the runs. I tried it in my coffee for a while. I liked the flavor. But not the additional morning excitement.

Agar agar would double up my last cat in pain. Pained loaf an hour after eating. I won't feed it to current or future cats.

S. boulardii may help. It couldn't hurt while you look for different foods to try. I don't know CKD. But have you looked at Mouser? I think when they first came out a few folks looked into them and found them suitable for CKD cats.
Mouser cat food!

You can buy Mouser by the can from Incredible Pets. This way you can run a few different flavors past your guy without having to commit to whole cases.
Search: 10 results found for "mouser" - Incredible Pets

 

[misterginja]

Too much coconut oil can give me the runs. I tried it in my coffee for a while. I liked the flavor. But not the additional morning excitement.

Agar agar would double up my last cat in pain. Pained loaf an hour after eating. I won't feed it to current or future cats.

S. boulardii may help. It couldn't hurt while you look for different foods to try. I don't know CKD. But have you looked at Mouser? I think when they first came out a few folks looked into them and found them suitable for CKD cats.
Mouser cat food!

You can buy Mouser by the can from Incredible Pets. This way you can run a few different flavors past your guy without having to commit to whole cases.
Search: 10 results found for "mouser" - Incredible Pets

Thank you for the food rec, I'm looking into it, there doesn't seem to be a lot of detailed info online about it yet. Will see what the company says. But am ordering the S. Boulardii this week!

Also that is unfortunate to hear how agar-agar affected your kitty...I actually contacted the food company about this ingredient, and they responded with the message below, which disputes it could cause a digestive problem :\ But here we all know it doesn't take much to throw off a cat's digestive system.

--start of message

Thank you for your message & interest in Identity! All our canned diets use agar-agar - this is a necessary ingredient for canned pet food.

Agar-agar is a natural, jelly-like substance, obtained from algae. This ingredient is approved by AAFCO and FDA as an ingredient Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS). Agar-agar is used in our diets in very small amounts of 0.4% or less to help thicken the diet into a loaf pate in a manner similar to gelatin. It’s actually an important ingredient to maintaining thickness and the pate texture of our diets. Without a thickener, canned diets would lack any texture and visually resemble watery meat. Additionally, this ingredient allows us to maintain our recipes as single protein diets since gelatin is not available from all animal species and if we used gelatin, it would not necessarily be from the same animal species in each recipe. It also allows us to reduce/eliminate the use of starches (sugars) in our diets & helps maintain our diets as legume-free as well since ingredients like locust bean gum or fenugreek seed are from legumes.

Dr. Greg Aldrich, Ph.D. Kansas State University notes in an article in Pet Food Industry magazine that “agar-agar has been used in foods for more than 350 years.” Further, he states, “it is a natural extract from Gelidium seaweeds and Gracilaria seaweeds.” Some consumers will say it is the same thing as carrageenan which is not factually correct - carrageenan comes from Chondrus crispus seaweed. Unlike carrageenan, food grade agar-agar is not processed with harsh chemical processes either. As Dr. Greg Aldrich notes, “[Agar-agar] safety has been verified numerous times in animal feeding studies with no reported genotoxicity or carcinogenicity….It has been demonstrated to be safe for food use for centuries.”

Feeding studies support that a majority of pets would not eat our diets if they were not thickened and consumer focus groups show that products without a thickener would be returned since, as mentioned, they would be very watery and have no texture. Product consistency, texture, and uniformity are important to consumers and pets alike. Being able to deliver a diet that a pet will eat is important - and agar-agar is a safe ingredient that can be used in a very small amount to help create a diet pets will enjoy eating.

Moreover, our feeding studies show no noticeable difference in stool consistency, digestion upset or adverse impacts for pets eating agar-agar. We have thousands of dogs & cats eating our diets with great success. There is a lot of speculation or incorrect information circulating online but it has no factual basis. The fact is that there is no scientifically verified research supporting agar-agar as a cause of inflammation or that it causes issues in companion pets. In fact, it is one of the most moderate and safest viscosity thickeners available for canned pet foods.

Our owners have over 20 years combined experience in animal nutrition, and we use certified veterinary nutritionists to formulate all our recipes according to AAFCO standards and using ingredients that are safe, non-toxic, and non-carcinogenic and approved for safe use in pet foods. Promoting the health and wellness of companion animals is our top-priority. There is just no factual or scientific basis to be concerned about the small amount of agar-agar used in our diets.

--end

 

[daftcat75]

Thank you for the food rec, I'm looking into it, there doesn't seem to be a lot of detailed info online about it yet. Will see what the company says. But am ordering the S. Boulardii this week!

Also that is unfortunate to hear how agar-agar affected your kitty...I actually contacted the food company about this ingredient, and they responded with the message below, which disputes it could cause a digestive problem :\ But here we all know it doesn't take much to throw off a cat's digestive system.

--start of message

Thank you for your message & interest in Identity! All our canned diets use agar-agar - this is a necessary ingredient for canned pet food.

Agar-agar is a natural, jelly-like substance, obtained from algae. This ingredient is approved by AAFCO and FDA as an ingredient Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS). Agar-agar is used in our diets in very small amounts of 0.4% or less to help thicken the diet into a loaf pate in a manner similar to gelatin. It’s actually an important ingredient to maintaining thickness and the pate texture of our diets. Without a thickener, canned diets would lack any texture and visually resemble watery meat. Additionally, this ingredient allows us to maintain our recipes as single protein diets since gelatin is not available from all animal species and if we used gelatin, it would not necessarily be from the same animal species in each recipe. It also allows us to reduce/eliminate the use of starches (sugars) in our diets & helps maintain our diets as legume-free as well since ingredients like locust bean gum or fenugreek seed are from legumes.

Dr. Greg Aldrich, Ph.D. Kansas State University notes in an article in Pet Food Industry magazine that “agar-agar has been used in foods for more than 350 years.” Further, he states, “it is a natural extract from Gelidium seaweeds and Gracilaria seaweeds.” Some consumers will say it is the same thing as carrageenan which is not factually correct - carrageenan comes from Chondrus crispus seaweed. Unlike carrageenan, food grade agar-agar is not processed with harsh chemical processes either. As Dr. Greg Aldrich notes, “[Agar-agar] safety has been verified numerous times in animal feeding studies with no reported genotoxicity or carcinogenicity….It has been demonstrated to be safe for food use for centuries.”

Feeding studies support that a majority of pets would not eat our diets if they were not thickened and consumer focus groups show that products without a thickener would be returned since, as mentioned, they would be very watery and have no texture. Product consistency, texture, and uniformity are important to consumers and pets alike. Being able to deliver a diet that a pet will eat is important - and agar-agar is a safe ingredient that can be used in a very small amount to help create a diet pets will enjoy eating.

Moreover, our feeding studies show no noticeable difference in stool consistency, digestion upset or adverse impacts for pets eating agar-agar. We have thousands of dogs & cats eating our diets with great success. There is a lot of speculation or incorrect information circulating online but it has no factual basis. The fact is that there is no scientifically verified research supporting agar-agar as a cause of inflammation or that it causes issues in companion pets. In fact, it is one of the most moderate and safest viscosity thickeners available for canned pet foods.

Our owners have over 20 years combined experience in animal nutrition, and we use certified veterinary nutritionists to formulate all our recipes according to AAFCO standards and using ingredients that are safe, non-toxic, and non-carcinogenic and approved for safe use in pet foods. Promoting the health and wellness of companion animals is our top-priority. There is just no factual or scientific basis to be concerned about the small amount of agar-agar used in our diets.

--end

My Krista would disagree with their assessment if she was still around--not to imply that agar agar had anything to do with her IBD other than to make her very uncomfortable the few times she ate a food with it. There is another member on this site who will corroborate that agar agar makes her cats uncomfortable or outright vomit.

I find their tone unnecessarily confrontational like they are accusing anyone who has observed adverse effects of being mistaken or liars.

I agree that most foods require a thickener. I disagree that it has to be agar agar. In my observations, I have found guar gum to be the most benign despite its foreboding name. I put carrageenan and agar agar in the same category having seen what they did to Krista. Xanthan gum is used to make smooth foods smooth. And for those sensitive to it--both Krista and myself--it makes poops smooth too. Mousse in, mousse out. It's in some cream cheeses and ice creams and other smooth foods if you were wondering how I know I'm sensitive to it. I don't really have an opinion on locust bean gum or one or two others that they often combine making it impossible to do meaningful trials. Mouser uses tomato paste. Rawz is another great brand. They use fenugreek seeds. I'm not sure if Rawz is suitable for CKD cats. But they are brilliant at answering customer questions.

 

[misterginja]

My Krista would disagree with their assessment if she was still around--not to imply that agar agar had anything to do with her IBD other than to make her very uncomfortable the few times she ate a food with it. There is another member on this site who will corroborate that agar agar makes her cats uncomfortable or outright vomit.

I find their tone unnecessarily confrontational like they are accusing anyone who has observed adverse effects of being mistaken or liars.

I agree that most foods require a thickener. I disagree that it has to be agar agar. In my observations, I have found guar gum to be the most benign despite its foreboding name. I put carrageenan and agar agar in the same category having seen what they did to Krista. I don't really have an opinion on locust bean gum or one or two others that they often combine making it impossible to do meaningful trials. Mouser uses tomato paste. Rawz is another great brand. They use fenugreek seeds. I'm not sure if Rawz is suitable for CKD cats. But they are brilliant at answering customer questions.

I agree with you (and so sorry to hear about Krista). Have told them about my cat's digestive upset while on their food and suspecting agar agar. I also felt like their response was saying that I was mistaken because no one else has complained. I think it's because most people would just change the food without telling the company how it affected their cats, so their research wouldn't show the actual full picture.

I agree Rawz is a great brand but unfortunately they are too high in phosphorus. Not giving up!

 

[tpapictures]

So, if I 'm understanding correctly, there is no need to buy a product branded towards cats? You can just take any S. Boulardii and just make sure you're only giving the dosage in grams appropriate for a cat?

 

[tabbytom]

So, if I 'm understanding correctly, there is no need to buy a product branded towards cats? You can just take any S. Boulardii and just make sure you're only giving the dosage in grams appropriate for a cat?

According to this article :- My Cat Has Diarrhea - What Do I Do?, yes, you are right.

My boy is on the probiotics mentioned in the article and he's on it twice a day after his diarrhea is resolved. Is your cat having diarrhea? If you have not read the article, give it a read and see the recommended dosage if your cat has diarrhea.

 

[tpapictures]

According to this article :- My Cat Has Diarrhea - What Do I Do?, yes, you are right.

My boy is on the probiotics mentioned in the article and he's on it twice a day after his diarrhea is resolved. Is your cat having diarrhea? If you have not read the article, give it a read and see the recommended dosage if your cat has diarrhea.

Thank you!! Our boy WANTS to eat but something is stoping him and it isn't nausea. We think he knows something doesn't feel right when he eats.

 

[tpapictures]

We just got some S. Boulardii and it says each 5 billion CFU pill has 500mg. I opened it and weighed it on our small quantities scale and it does. So I guess that means that regardless of how this pill is made up, to give him 5billion CFU per day in 500mg pills means to give him 250mg twice per day for no more than 500mg or 5 billion CFU in a single day.
Does that math make sense?

 

[white shadow]

T tpapictures - the logic and math make sense to me, so I 'think so'........but, I'll defer to users as I'm not one.

And, there's a thread about SB by one of our all-time best-informed members here.

 

[tabbytom]

We just got some S. Boulardii and it says each 5 billion CFU pill has 500mg. I opened it and weighed it on our small quantities scale and it does. So I guess that means that regardless of how this pill is made up, to give him 5billion CFU per day in 500mg pills means to give him 250mg twice per day for no more than 500mg or 5 billion CFU in a single day.
Does that math make sense?

Not sure which brand you bought but according to the article I attached, it looks different from what you describe in the dosage per capsule.

This is from the article :-

“Emergency Stop Diarrhea” S boulardii Administration for Cats with Severe Diarrhea


Probiotics are typically sold in measures of “CFU.” CFU = colony forming units. S boulardii is the exception, it is often sold in mg. Note that 250mg of S boulardii is the same dose as 5 billion CFU.


Traditional dosing for therapeutic treatment of diarrhea in adult cats as provided by U.C. Davis is one-half of a 250mg capsule (5 billion CFU) given twice daily. Treatment for kittens is half of the adult dose. It can be given with food; it does not have to be. This is usually sufficient for loose stools of normal frequency. For the “emergency stop diarrhea” approach, we find more frequent dosing of smaller amounts of the probiotic, providing a higher total CFU the first day or two, resolves diarrhea much more quickly.


For adult cats (defined here as 9 months of age and older):


Give one-quarter of the 250mg / 5 billion CFU capsule every two hours or so. Many cats accept it when mixed into finely ground poached chicken breast / turkey breast / pork loin or meat-only baby food. (Beech Nut, Goya, and Gerber list “meat” and broth or gravy as ingredients. These are fine, they are referring to the water used to cook the meat, and they contain no spices). If your cat does not like the taste of the probiotic, you can syringe after mixing with water. If you are not experienced syringing liquids into your cat, you can use empty #3 gel capsules. Simply fill 10 to 20 of these by transferring the S boulardii from the larger capsules into the smaller ones. These are a size easy to pill your cat. Pill your cat with one #3 capsule filled with S boulardii every two hours or so. For pilling instructions, see How to Pill (Your Cat).


This frequent dosing method usually stops diarrhea within 24 – 48 hours, other than when diarrhea is caused by another disease that requires treatment (low B12, exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, hyperthyroidism, as examples). This “loading dose” can be continued for longer if necessary, up to three to four days – but if you do not see substantial improvement in the diarrhea on day 3, it is best to follow-up with your veterinarian. It is NOT necessary to use this approach, it can be given at “therapeutic” doses as discussed above twice a day (and doubled if you see improvement in stool but diarrhea or soft cow patty stools have not resolved).


When the diarrhea has substantially resolved with use of the emergency stop treatment protocol, begin use of S. boulardii at the therapeutic dose level (2.5 billion CFU twice daily) and continue for at least one week. If stools soften, resume use of S. boulardii at the therapeutic dose as needed. Given its role in improving performance of bacterial probiotics and its anti-inflammatory properties, the use of S boulardii at maintenance levels (anywhere from 500 million CFU to a total of 2.5 billion CFU daily) can be continued indefinitely along with a bacterial probiotic. It confers many health and GI protective benefits, and we use it along with bacterial strains in all of our cats, all the time.


For kittens under nine months old, follow the same instructions as for adults, just use half the amount.


Please Note: If diarrhea becomes worse with S boulardii administration, stop use immediately. There can be several reasons for this reaction, however. We have seen cats do poorly with a brand of S boulardii that contains lactose, and switching to a brand like Jarrow without it, the product works quite well. This is most common. We have also seen what is most likely bacterial die-off with the S boulardii. Again, stop administration for 24 hours, and reintroduce it (while continuing to feed the bland diet) slowly. Do not follow the "emergency stop diarrhea" instructions. Use it just twice a day, but at 1/4 of the recommended amount the first day, and 1/2 the recommended amount the second day if kitty did not react to the lower dose. If you do not begin to see improvement even with this slower method of introduction, stop the S boulardii, best to see the vet.

 

[daftcat75]

There isn’t really an upper limit of what you can give. Except your cat may get constipated at higher doses. My last cat, Krista, loved the stuff and would gladly eat it in her food. Indeed, when she got picky, SB was something I could use to bring her to the plate. My current cat, Betty, is a different story. She doesn’t like the taste one bit. If I want to turn her away from her food, this would be the stuff to do it. Fortunately, whatever I can pack into a smaller capsule, dip it in her “cake frosting” (what I call Hills A/D) and drop it on the carpet for her (so she cannot just lick the A/D and leave the capsule behind), she will happily scoop and swallow. She is a breeze to “pill” because she’ll take her own capsules. For Betty, I bought a size 4 (larger number means smaller capsules) capsule filling machine, and once a month, I turn about a dozen of those 5 billion CFU capsules into 50 cat sized capsules. Back of the napkin math tells me that each capsule is approx 1/4 of the original sized capsules or the perfect maintenance dose. I give her one of these repacked size four capsules twice a day.

Capsule filling machine:
Manual capsule filler for 50 capsules of size 4,3,2,1 respectively

The Hills A/D capsule tips and tricks (substitute your own cat’s irresistible treat if he doesn’t like or cannot have Hills A/D)

 

[tpapictures]

Not sure which brand you bought but according to the article I attached, it looks different from what you describe in the dosage per capsule.

This is the product we bought. By their usage guidelines, they say a serving is two pills and constitutes 1000mg which accounts for 10 billion CFU. So, for this product, 5billion CFU is one 500mg pill. I measured the pill contents, it's 500mg.

 

[tabbytom]

This is the product we bought. By their usage guidelines, they say a serving is two pills and constitutes 1000mg which accounts for 10 billion CFU. So, for this product, 5billion CFU is one 500mg pill. I measured the pill contents, it's 500mg.

Ok, then you follow the dosage guideline stated in the article for your cat.

 

[daftcat75]

This is the product we bought. By their usage guidelines, they say a serving is two pills and constitutes 1000mg which accounts for 10 billion CFU. So, for this product, 5billion CFU is one 500mg pill. I measured the pill contents, it's 500mg.

Although that weight doesn’t match up (the article describes 5 bln CFU/250 mg), assume it is the same dosage as the one in the article based on the CFU. I can’t explain the difference in weight. Perhaps they add something else besides the SB?

 

[tpapictures]

Ok, then you follow the dosage guideline stated in the article for your cat.

Well, I can't really do that as the article doesn't talk about the 500mg pills I showed above that I bought.

I can’t explain the difference in weight. Perhaps they add something else besides the SB?

I have absolutely no idea. The info from the bottle is right there in the link I posted. There is nothing in the capsule other than S Boulardii.
Has no one ever seen a pill like this before?

 

[tpapictures]

Ok, my bad everyone.. I thought I had copied the link into the forum in post #35. I clearly didn't.
Here you go: Saccharomyces Boulardii Supplement | Veg Capsules | NOW (nowfoods.com)

 

[daftcat75]

Ok, my bad everyone.. I thought I had copied the link into the forum in post #35. I clearly didn't.
Here you go: Saccharomyces Boulardii Supplement | Veg Capsules | NOW (nowfoods.com)

There is FOS and guar gum (prebiotics that feed healthy bacteria) listed under the Inactive ingredients. Perhaps these are adding the extra weight. I think MOS (Jarrow brand) is better than FOS. But try what you have first.

I would follow the dosing instructions as if these were the same weight. Because at the end of the day, the SB is the most important component of both capsules. Their CFU (colony forming units, or the potency) are equivalent. I always forget what that article recommends precisely because they go back and forth between CFU and mg. Betty takes the equivalent of 1/4 of those pills twice a day. That’s probably a good place to start.