Raw vs Cooked in times of ill health?

[tammyp]

Ok, so I'm a raw feeder (90%).  One of my cats recently got ill, and I found I also have this thought in my head...

'switch to a bland diet of cooked chicken for a few days', which is a popular vet recommendation.  But, with my attention drawn to that thought, I had to ask WHY? And I cant come up with an answer!!  After all, if cooking is to make the meat safe by killing bugs, the rationale would be flawed - as we've already killed the bugs by freezing for 3 days.

Can anyone tell me the logic and truth to this idea of switching to cooked chicken in times of tummy upset?

 

[mschauer]

Freezing doesn't kill all bacteria. It kills some but some will just suppressed growth. Once the food is thawed the remaining bacteria will start to multiple.

I can't speak for your vet but for me in addition to killing bacteria feeding cooked chicken to a sick cat may also have the benefit of being easier to digest. Studies have shown that even for obligate carnivores cooked meat is easier to digest than raw. The study didn't include domestic cats but there is reason to believe the same would hold true for them. The addition of cooked white rice could be of further benefit in that it is also easy to digest and would be a source of quick energy. A sick cat needs energy to heal and cooked food may be better in that regard.

http://bama.ua.edu/~ssecor/journalarticles/journalarticle42.pdf

 

[ldg]

Here's a study done in cats. It compares raw beef, cooked beef, and extruded (dry) beef (has to have other ingredients to be extruded though). The conclusion is that energy and bioavialability are essentially the same for cooked and raw: http://www.2ndchance.info/homemadediets-Kerr2012.pdf

I think most vets recommend the cooked chicken and rice just because they don't think in terms of raw - and for the potential bacterial issue. Salmonella, for instance, is not killed by freezing, only by cooking.

Because I'm in close contact with ferals on a regular basis, I bring things inside sometimes, no matter how careful I try to be. So twice since on raw, I've had a virus that caused some upset tummies/diarrhea to roll through the cats (that's how we knew it wasn't the food, because one cat would get it, and one or two cats would come down with it every day or two, until it cycled through). I didn't stop the raw feeding when this happened - the vet (who isn't pro- or anti-raw) didn't think it was necessary.

Just FYI, I keep DiaGel on hand for incidents like this: Wow - I guess they don't sell it directly any longer! Well, here's the info on it: http://www.vanbeeknaturalscience.com/comp_diagel.php?ms=1 (I notice they no longer list the ingredients, which they used to do). Any time the vet would normally recommend metronadizole, I use DiaGel instead.

 

[mschauer]

Here's a study done in cats. It compares raw beef, cooked beef, and extruded (dry) beef (has to have other ingredients to be extruded though). The conclusion is that energy and bioavialability are essentially the same for cooked and raw: http://www.2ndchance.info/homemadediets-Kerr2012.pdf
 

I'm not a nutritionist and so could be wrong but I believe with regards to energy the above link is referring to something different than the link I posted. The above link, I think, just measured the energy content of the food consumed and compared with the energy content of feces to determine the "total energy tract digestibility". The link I posted is to a study that determined the net energy benefit from the food. That is, an animal uses energy to digest food and absorb nutrients from it. So the net energy benefit is the energy derived from the food, as might be determined by the method in the above link, minus the energy required by the body to process it. The study I linked to showed that cooked food requires less energy to process and so the net energy benefit is greater.

 

[ldg]

Interesting. I didn't catch that (though couldn't open the PDF to the study you linked to on my phone, just saw it wasn't re: cats).

 

[mschauer]

Yeah, I said in my post that cats weren't involved in the study. 

 

[tammyp]

Interesting.  I have some more reading to do obviously!  

One question re the cooked white rice...my understanding was that cats dont have the enzymes needed to break down and access non-animal products.  So how can this provide any nutrition?  I understand it can rapidly inflate the glucose levels (pure energy), but it can't be adequately harnessed (hence the rise in diabetes in cats with grain in their food)??  Maybe this is just one reason that study doesn't apply to cats??

I've actually had one vet say to feed 'cooked chicken and some rice', and one say 'cooked chicken, BUT NO RICE'  (she then recommended a 'prescription diet' that included rice...and couldn't answer my questions about the contradiction, but hey, that's just the whole vets in the pocket of big pet food problem).

At the moment, I've failed in the cooked chicken department...Ava (13weeks) simply hates cooked anything!  Kato (2.5yrs) usually likes it, but has cat flu and so needs more smelly and fluidy foods at the moment.  But I saw good poos from Ava today, so hopefully we are on the mend.  Kato is getting better thankfully (but haven't seen a poo for a couple days as he's eaten so lightly, so can't say how that is.  I'm hoping he was just run down with flu rather than a tummy bug, and on Ava's side, she's still settling in).

 

[mschauer]

Interesting.  I have some more reading to do obviously!  

One question re the cooked white rice...my understanding was that cats dont have the enzymes needed to break down and access non-animal products.  So how can this provide any nutrition? 

That is a bit of misinformation that has been widely spread. In other mammals the enzyme amylase in saliva starts the breakdown of carbohydrates. That cats lack amylase in their saliva has led people to inappropriately conclude that cats can't digest carbohydrates. But cats do produce pancreatic amylase although not enough to equal the amount available to other mammals. Cooking greatly increases the digestibility of carbohydrates and reduces the need for amylase in cats.

Carbohydrate digestion by the domestic cat

The measurements of the digestibility of individual carbohydrates indicate that despite the low carbohydrate content of carnivorous diets characteristic of the Felidae (Ewer, 1973), the cat efficiently digests glucose, sucrose, lactose, dextrin and starch.

 I understand it can rapidly inflate the glucose levels (pure energy), but it can't be adequately harnessed (hence the rise in diabetes in cats with grain in their food)??  Maybe this is just one reason that study doesn't apply to cats??

I don't understand what you mean by "harnessed"?? I don't know of any evidence that cats can't utilize the glucose obtained from carbohydrates.

At this point I should point out that I'm not suggesting that a cat should be fed a diet high in rice, cooked or not. I just don't think there is any reason to completely avoid it. Diets very high in carbohydrates fed over a long period of time have been implicated in causing illness in cats. 

 

[ldg]

Well, given that so many cat foods are 30% - 40% carbs, clearly they can utilize them, or any cats eating those foods would be starving.

The issue with carbs and cats is not inability to utilize the nutrients, but that there appears to be a "carb ceiling" and a need for animal-based proteins. As relates to diabetes, the issue is being fat - weight gain (due to satiety issues? Potentially related to the carb ceiling? ...not known yet), kibble fed cats being able to graze and just over-eating, etc. But it's being overweight that causes the change in how insulin functions in the body.

Dr. Hodgkins explained the carb thing best, IMO.

In the liver, protein protein amino acids are processed into glucose (sugar) and sent into the bloodstream to supply the body's need for this energy nutrient. In a meat-eating species like the cat, accustomed to little dietary carbohydrate in its evolutionary environment, the liver will manufacture the great majority of the animal's needed glucose, which is the primary energy supply for the animal's brain. Because there is little glucose in a high-meat diet, this is an essential task for an obligatory carnivore. The liver of omnivores, including people and dogs, have multiple enzyme systems for handling dietary carbohydrate; the cat has only one such enzyme system, with limited capacity to deal with high carbohydrate consumption.

from "Your Cat: Simple new secrets to a longer, stronger life," 1st ed. 2007, p. 6.

Re: the carb ceiling: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/6/1039.full#R22

Re: insulin and obesity (a good read on the issue being fat, not carbs): http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...4744&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0007114507750869 (The full study is available).

Re: Protein, the discussion of taurine in this article demonstrate why animal-based protein is so important for cats: http://www.livestocklibrary.com.au/bitstream/handle/1234/19925/187.PDF?sequence=1

 

[ldg]

Yeah, I said in my post that cats weren't involved in the study. 

I know - that's why I thought the study in cats would be appropriate. :lol3: If you hadn't written that, I wouldn't have posted the link. I'd have had to wait until I was on the laptop and able to open the link. ...But it's addressing a different issue, as it turns out.

 

[mschauer]

I know - that's why I thought the study in cats would be appropriate.

If you hadn't written that, I wouldn't have posted the link.

Yeah, I finally got that. 

 

 

[tammyp]

Thanks guys  - and LDG for those links!