Questions about raw transition

[drubole]

Hello from Upstate NY.  I am Mom to Dick, Doodle, Gabby, and Smudge who have been eating ground chicken backs, organs, liver, egg yolk, taurine, bcomplex, fish oil, and E...My question is about the "little guy" (6 months)..he seems to love eating it but he pukes every other day or so.  Is this common?  I am concerned about the supplement mixture.  Some say psyllium husks, some say not needed.  Also with the glandular supplement, is that necessary too?  I have a ready supply of chicken backs which their canine brother loves!  Should I be introducing other meats (it has been about a month).  When I look at them, especially after cleaning up puke, I feel a little scared as I want them to have proper nutrition.  But then I think, anything that they get is so much better for them than kibble.  I am grateful to have a place to go, as my friends and family would think I am nuts to have a designated "pet" drawer in my refrigerator!

 

[otto]

Hi and welcome to TCS. Though I do feed raw, I can't answer your questions but there are some here who will be able to. Just wanted to welcome you and bump your thread so those who can help will see it.

 

[ldg]

Only chicken backs? That would be very high in calcium relative to meat and definitely not properly balanced. Can you elaborate a bit on the recipe you're using? Do you have a link to the one you've been using? And can you specify exactly what ingredients and amounts you've been using? (Proportions of everything in it?)

Can you also describe a little bit more about your kitty's vomiting? How long after a meal does he throw up? Is it vomit - or is he regurgitating the meal (when it comes right back up after eating). Can you let us know how often you feed them and how much he eats at a meal?

It could be any number of things, but it could be he's going too long between meals. This creates acid build-up, and they often regurgitate a meal when that happens. Younger kitties often need to eat more frequently.

 

[drubole]

http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#The_Recipe   We followed this recipe:

4.4  #'s ground chicken backs

8oz  beef liver

4 raw eggs

4 cooked egg whites

4,000mg Fish

800 iu Vit E

B-complex (one tablet) (no C)

2,000mg Taurine

16oz water

The kitten seems to be sick hours after he eats. It is mostly liquid.  With a little fur and sometimes a small amount of food in it. We are feeding them 3 sometimes 4 times a day.  They get a heaping Tablespoon as that is about what they seem to be able to finish.  Sometimes they eat it all at once, sometimes they "come back" to it after only a few minutes.  I only give them so long before I pick up the dishes and wash them.  I think it is going to take time for them to realize it's use it or lose it...no more free grazing crappy kibble whenever they feel like it!  I'd rather feed them 5 times a day if you say that's what the norm is...

I hope I answered all of your ?'s, again I cannot thank you enough.  I anxiously await hearing from you!

 

[mschauer]

That recipe doesn't call for chicken backs. What it calls for is:

3 pounds of poultry thigh meat/bones/skin

or

2.25 lbs of whole carcass ground rabbit + 0.75 lbs of boneless chicken or turkey meat/skin/fat

You *must* either add more muscle meat to what you feed them or stop feeding a raw diet. The diet you say you are feeding is nutritionally unbalanced to a dangerous extent.

Please go back back and reread Dr. Pierson's instructions carefully and follow them *exactly*. In fact, I would suggest you stop feeding raw immediately until you are sure you understand how to do it safely.

 

[ldg]

mschauer is correct. You are not feeding your cats nearly enough meat - they're severely lacking protein. Dr. Pierson specifically states to use thighs, and has further instruction on how much bone to remove. She also points out that the lite salt is critical to the diet, because of the needed iodine. Bone is full of many minerals, but especially calcium. Calcium (in bone) and phosphorus (in meat) and vitamin D (in organs and eggs) all work very closely together and the calcium and phosphorus, in particular, must be provided in the proper balance. Unfortunately, the diet you're feeding is not properly balanced by replacing chicken thighs with chicken backs. (And it's not just the lack of meat, the backs have a different nutritional profile than thigh).

And yes, IMO, it is important to include other proteins in rotation. This thread may be helpful for you - http://www.thecatsite.com/t/249264/launching-into-homemade-raw Andrya is using a different ground formula (link provided in the thread). You may also want to search for threads by mschauer, She has posted links to her ground recipes.

 

[drubole]

ok, now i am scared!  He just made a new batch tonight while I was at work, and instead of throwing it away, what can I add to it to make it safe to feed them?   I do not want to stop feeding raw.  But I also don't want to put my cats in danger.  I am wondering if I can add some muscle meat to this mixture, to make it safe?  Thank you so very much...I feel like a fool.  But I am not going to get discouraged!  I want to do this right.  I have some reading to do.

 

[mschauer]

Good for you!

When I get home from work tonight I'll run your recipe through my recipe analyzer and tell you exactly what to add to make it nutritionally complete!

For today I would take the amount you are currently feeding and double it by adding muscle meat. That will at least dilute the bone.

 

[mschauer]

Turns out I don't need my analysis program for this since I'm figuring out how to adjust your recipe to match Dr Pierson's.

The USDA database says the typical chicken back is 56% meat and skin and 44% bone and the typical chicken thigh is 85% meat and skin and 15% bone.

Using that plus that Dr P recommends removing the bone from 25% of the chicken thighs means that she is recommending that the meat+skin and bone composition of the recipe be 89% meat+skin and 11% bone.

Your recipe using just the chicken backs is 56% meat+skin and 44% bone.

To adjust your recipe to match Dr P's you need to add:

13 lbs meat/skin (NO bone)

1 lbs liver

8 eggs

25000 mg fish oil

1500 IU vit E

9600 mg taurine

4 tsp lite iodized salt

You can round the supplements up to the amounts contained in the capsules you use.

If you make those adjustments the meat/bone composition of your recipe will be 89% meat+skin and 11% bone as Dr Pierson recommends.

BTW, it's OK to use liver other than from chickens occasionally but you don't want to use beef liver exclusively. It is high in copper. Also, just FYI, turkey liver is high in vitamin A. By "high" I mean high enough to potentially lead to excess if over fed.

 

[mschauer]

As for the problem you originally were asking about, in addition to the food being nutritionally unbalanced your kitten may need more to eat. Kittens typically eat at least twice as much as adults.

 

[drubole]

Again, I cannot thank you enough, it means so much to me that you have taken the time to help.  We will be adding chicken legs/thighs TODAY.  I am sure the butcher we use can get whole chickens, which we will use in the future ( although this batch should last for a bit!)

 

[mschauer]

You're welcome. 

BTW, the rule of thumb with kittens is to give them as much to eat as they want.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!   

 

[mschauer]

I just looked in the USDA database and the entry that I think is for whole chicken indicates it would be 32% bone which is still too high. It really isn't a good idea to guess at what might be an appropriate substitute for an ingredient in a recipe. 

Is there a reason you don't want to use chicken thighs?

 

[Willowy]

Again, I cannot thank you enough, it means so much to me that you have taken the time to help.  We will be adding chicken legs/thighs TODAY.  I am sure the butcher we use can get whole chickens, which we will use in the future ( although this batch should last for a bit!)

Make sure you're adding BONELESS meat today. You don't want to add more bone to this batch. Next time you make a batch you can use the bone-in thighs. It's hard to find boneless thighs/legs for a reasonable price, IME. Seems like boneless breast is cheaper, but thigh meat is more nutritious so maybe that's why.

If your cats can tolerate red meat, you can add boneless beef, pork, lamb, etc. instead of more chicken.

 

[angels mommy]

Ahhh, And THIS is why I feed commercial raw!  Much easier for me!  Good luck. I'm glad your figuring it all out. We have wonderful, knowledgeable people on this site!!!!

 

[oakshimmer]

Hello

I just wanted to say that you are braver than I!

I am a newbie at raw feeding, and commercial seems to be the only way I can do this too. I did branch out and get my kitty a raw beef liver though for a treat, but that's as daring as it gets! Great job with your babies, they sound like they have a great kitty momma!

 

[drubole]

I think I miss understood when I read whole ground animals...But he added chicken leg/thigh 1/4's, more liver and gizzards and hearts to make up the needed weight.  The dog got a treat, we have a beautiful stock, what a smell to come home to (work nights)! He likes cutting up meat so I am very lucky, he's a good man! He also added the lite salt and supplements etc. and from now on (I printed it out and its on the ****) he is going to follow recipe to the T!  Thank you again for all your help, concern, research...It is so nice to have a place to go, but to also be made to feel so welcome, I am grateful! Do you think the combo of backs, leg/thigh meat, gizzards & hearts, and liver will be ok in the future?

 

[drubole]

We can currently get  good meaty leg/thigh's w/ backs attached for .79/lb so that is what we will be using.  When I was giving them quality canned food, NONE of them liked the beef, but I was so desperate to give them some protein and worried, I had beef patties made for the dog.... they ate them like they'd been doing it all their lives...love watching them chew on the chunks, they look  so happy...

 

[drubole]

Ok, I'll get this,  that first one was for Mschaurer, sorry!  Second response was for Willowy, like I said, I'm gonna get this! Angels Mom, I am afraid of the cost of commercial, that's all..and my honey is retired and loves to cook, barbeque, and do anything involving meat so I am very, very lucky...although I do feed them and help with prep when I am home!  I am so grateful to have people with experience welcoming me..

Oakshimmer, I AM a good Momma...Thank you so much. We share our lives with:

Dick and Doodle 4 y/o orange tabby brothers left in the ditch at 6 m/o

Gabby 2 y/o Russian Blue "the boys" brought home with them (already nuetered when he arrived)

Smudge 10 m/o black and white with medium long hair who Dick is very slowly warming up to, Doodle ignores, and Gabby plays with!

The reason I started them on raw was because we started their loving canine brother raw and I felt guilty.  From what I have read I am VERY fortunate that they all eat well, no nose turning here!  Even when I didn't get it right, bless their little hearts!  Thank you all, again for making me feel so welcome!

 

[mschauer]

I think I miss understood when I read whole ground animals...But he added chicken leg/thigh 1/4's, more liver and gizzards and hearts to make up the needed weight.  The dog got a treat, we have a beautiful stock, what a smell to come home to (work nights)! He likes cutting up meat so I am very lucky, he's a good man! He also added the lite salt and supplements etc. and from now on (I printed it out and its on the ****) he is going to follow recipe to the T!  Thank you again for all your help, concern, research...It is so nice to have a place to go, but to also be made to feel so welcome, I am grateful! Do you think the combo of backs, leg/thigh meat, gizzards & hearts, and liver will be ok in the future?

I think using ~4.5 lbs of chicken backs and adding 13 lbs of boneless meat/heart/gizzards should work great. Adding hearts and gizzards will provide more nutrients in their natural form. Be careful with the liver though. Make sure it doesn't make up more than about ~6% of the total as recommended by Dr. Pierson. Liver is high in Vitamin A and feeding too much can result in toxic levels building up in the body. Hearts and gizzards you can use in higher quantities but the muscle meat should still make up the majority of the mix.

You are very lucky to have a fella who loves to cut meat! I wish I had one! 

BTW, you probably read that feeding whole ground animals provide cats with all the nutrients they need. But that means truly *whole* animals, guts feathers and all. And it really refers to animals that would be the natural prey of cats, like mice, small birds, lizards, rabbits. Chickens aren't a cats natural prey and are far bonier than animals that are. And the "whole" chickens sold in the store aren't really whole. The heads, guts, feet, etc are removed.

Please don't hesitate to ask questions. That's why we are here!