Questions about breeding

[travisg96]

My name is Travis, I have started doing some research on breeding. The first book I am reading is Genetics for cat breeders by Roy Robinson. So far it is just adding more questions to the list than it is answering, actually it is answering the questions and just adding new ones to the list. Has anyone else here read this book that might be able to give me some insight into what is being said?

Travis

 

[Anne]

I haven't read the book, though I'd love to someday. I'm very interested in feline genetics. Just wanted to let you know we had an expert forum here once about feline genetics. Expert forums are events that we hold from time to time, where an expert comes in to provide answers to members' questions. It's closed to new posts, but you can certainly read the threads in it - 

http://www.thecatsite.com/f/31/feline-genetics

 

[maewkaew]

 Hi Travis!   Boy,  you really are diving in at the deep end when it comes to reading!   Good for you!    I don't know if you are only curious , or are considering breeding,  but way too many people start breeding without taking time to read,   show an alter of their breed  get involved with a breed group,  find mentors etc.

I don't have my copy handy  and I may be no help ,   but what were you wanting to know?

 Actually, better yet,  one of the authors of that book (Shelton) is an admin on a Yahoo group  .   http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/fanciershealth

 

[flintmccullough]

I don't breed, but I do show on the CFA circuit, and I am pretty knowledgeable about breeding. What are you thinking about doing, and what questions do you have. I have alot of friends and alot of contacts in the show world. If I don't know the anser, I know where to look, and/or where to direct you to, pretty much any breed. Be very glad to help you. 

If you have a specific breed in mind, you have to research and know, that breeds health issues, they are prone to, and the background of that breed.  If its Maine Coon, I can tell you anything, you want to know.

With breeding, its more than just, what you want to create, its knowing what is behind, what you are working with. The history is the key, not the future.

If your looking to breed show kittens, then you have to know, the show world, of that breed and what your responsibilities are regarding the kittens you created.  

If you could be more specific, about, what your looking to do, I would be very glad, to help you, and help you get started in the right direction.  

  

 

 

[travisg96]

I started with this book to answer a question regarding a quote that was posted on messybeast.com. I was trying to find the quote in context to what was being talked about so I could try and figure out what as really being said.

Chapter 2 is on reproduction and anyone who has taken a biology class should be able to understand that.

Chapter 3 is where it starts to get deep. It is talking about heredity and starts out simple with basic colors and then starts adding on density, hair length, spotting, and on and on. I must admit that I had trouble reading that not because I am a poor reader but the material was so dense that I kept having to reread and stop and let my brain absorb what I had just read.

Chapter 4 started talking about breeding practice and is where the real questions started coming in. He starts talking about sib breeding and inbreeding as a way to make your line more heterogeneous He covers selection  and total score also but more of the chapter is devoted to sib breeding, inbreeding and close breeding. I knew that there was always a amount if inbreeding in pedigreed animals but it comes off as more extensive than I imagined. which leads me to the question of how much inbreeding is ok and to what extent. It sounds like after you select the initial stud and queen you pick the best male and female siblings and breed them together and after doing this for several generations you can lock in traits to your line and make it heterogeneous. He does bring out that doing this can bring ay anomalous that ay be regressive to light really fast.

Chapter 5 goes more in depth about coat color and is an interesting read.

Chapter 6 is more abput color genetics and has a really section describing different breeds of cats. This is a good read for anyone who is interested in cats.

I am currently reading chapter 7 which is on abnormalities.

This was not really meant to be a review of the book, my question was really about the breeding part in chapter 4. I do realize that a lot of this was written in the 70's and revised and updated in to the 90's and alot of the references are from the 50's and 60's so maybe this is really out of date.

So  maybe just starting with the realities of breeding would be a start.

Travis

 

[flintmccullough]

I never read the book, but so very very much, has changed, since it was written, in the breeding and show world.  And it ain't pretty.

What you are describing, is referred to, as "line breeding". A responsible breeder, will keep it close, but not too close, and not cross the line, per say, which is where things start to go wrong.

There are 2 reasons people breed.

One is they have championship show quality kitties, and they want to further their line, which nets them championships at shows, which in turn, results in big bucks, for the resulting kittens. These people show, they know the ins and outs of showing, they know exactly what they are doing, and they have a very good cattery name, quality stud, quality queen, and top quality kittens. They work very hard to achieve this name and produce top quality healthy kittens. Its also very very expensive. It is very expensive to show a kitty, very expensive. It is expensive to properly care for the stud and the queen, especially when she is pregnant and after she gives birth. It is also expensive to care for the kittens until they are weaned. We all know, how much it costs, for a vet, shots, exams, and the reality of a kitten getting sick.  They don't make money on the kittens, they about break even, after you subtract out the expenses of getting those kittens.  But they are very well known on the circuit, have a top quality name and kitties. They are responsible breeders. 

The other reason people breed, is to make money. We, on the show circuit, refer to them, as backyard breeders.

They somehow, got ahold of a breed stud, and a breed queen, they don't show, they don't further their name or kitties. and for the most part, do not care, at all, about what they are creating. The kittens are registered and you will see their ads in the newspaper, and they are sold at similiar prices of what a breed kitten would go for. 

Why?

Because there are a zillion joe smith people out there, that want to say..... I have a registered Maine Coon, its a status symbol.  

They have not a clue, about the background of the stud or the queen, or what health issues, or any issues, might be in the background. They breed, to make money. They are irresponsible breeders. No, not all of them, but a good majority, before I get jumped on.

In their case, once the kitten is sold, the new parent, is on his own.  No, not every single one, but thats the jist of how it works, for them.

A responsible breeder, a show breeder, will very very carefully screen the prospective kitten buyer, be prepared to fill out like a zillion pages of an application. They talk at length, about what the buyer is looking for, in a kitten, to provide a good match. They ask for a deposit, to hold that kitten, some let them go at 8 weeks, some 12 weeks, some 16 weeks. 

Full payment is expected when the buyer picks up the kitten. The kitten buyer signs a contract, all contracts are different, the buyer should read and understand and ask any question before they sign. The basics are, at the time of sale, the kitten is deemed healthy, has been to the vet, and has the first kitten shots.  Registration papers are given after proof of spay/neuter.  They are beyond strict about that.  It also states, if for whatever reason, it doesn't work out, the breeder will take the kitten back.

This is where it gets real real sticky, and why, a responsible breeder, works so hard, to make sure the kitten will be well cared for and have a forever home. They can't keep them all, and they have to make room, for future kittens.

Depending on why the kitten is returned, and the specifics will be in the contract, thats why it is so very important, the kitten buyer reads and understands the contract.

It is different in every case, depending on what is in the contract.

The ballpark rule of thumb, is if the kitten is returned, the breeder will give the buyer, his money back, OR a replacement kitten. This choice, is up to the breeder, and it depends on what kittens might be available, so the buyer might be looking at waiting for a future kitten. This is the breeders choice.  This is if the kitten just doesn't work out.

If its a health issue, now, its the kitten buyers choice. They can ask for their money back, OR a replacement kitten. But again, it depends, on if there are any kittens avail, they may have all been sold, or promised. Then the kitten buyer is looking at waiting for a future kitten, if thats what they ask for. 

The specifics would be in the contract.

I had a health issue, a major one, which, is why, breeding, and the lack of ethics, are a very hot topic for me.

I declined to return him.  

If I had returned him, I could write the ticket, because I declined, the breeder wrote the ticket.

She offered me a future kitten and actually, gave me 2 kittens. When he passed, she said when you are ready, you can have another kitten.  She also gave me half of my money back.

She only owed me one kitten, I got 2 and a future one, and some of my money back, she didn't have to do that, she went above and beyond.  She had a good name, she still has a good name.  

The ironic part is, when I went looking, and I picked him, she said he is pet quality, he will never Final, there was just something about his little personality.   He very soon, hit first place in his region.   

The issue, was in his background, his grand parents and their relatives, which were not her kitties. 

Altho it was a top quality championship show line, their lack of ethics in breeding, caused his demise. They came across the wrong kitten buyer.

He was a Maine Coon, he had HCM, nobody bothered to test. 

The reality of breeding, is you are creating a living breathing creature. It is your responsiblity to know, the health issues of that breed and do your best, not to contribute to them. It is your responsibility to do your very best, to find a good home for those kittens, and be prepared, to take them back, for any reason. 

The majority of the current health issues of the breeds, are man made.  These did not exist, back when that book was written.

Maine Coons and Ragdolls are prone to HCM. Persians are prone to PKD, and there little smushed in faces, man made, create a plethera of health issues for them.  Siamese are no longer the apple headed Siamese of what we remember as kids, their faces are longated and their bodies are very very slim, and..... I know what they do, to keep them like that, and why, they cry at shows, the public would be appauled, if they knew.  The Scottish Fold came about, because a barn kitten, was born, with ears folded over like that, and somebody said, wouldn't it be cool, to breed a cat like that, more man made issues. Then we have the Sphynx, they are hairless, more man made problems, hopefully no one ever throws one outside.  My personal favorite, the Munchkins, don't even get me started on them, what they did to create them, they should go to jail for, forever.

Breeding, is a responsibility, not a way, to make money, at the expense of these little kittens. My boy paid the price, for their greed and irresponsibility.

How ironic, my breeder would be considered a backyard breeder, she doesn't show, but she has a great line, and she is very very responsibile and caring about the kittens. What took my boy down, was a top of the line, quality championship show cattery.       

 

[maewkaew]

There have been ( and still are) different thoughts about inbreeding/ linebreeding.  but I think most good cat breeders today who are concerned with health try to AVOID too much close breeding.    

 It's true that breeding related individuals will help to set type.    Breeding very closely related individuals can also be a way to test to see what recessives may be hidden. 

And  it's true that most breeds have breedings in their history closer than most reputable breeders would do today.

A breed that gets started from some new discovered mutation often has a lot of inbreeding at the start. ( for example Devon Rex or Sphynx) followed by outcrossing.   Other breeds that started from a very small group of cats who were brought from one country to another , also had a great deal of inbreeding.

( I think it must have said inbreeding was a way to make the line more homogenous ( same ) .   Heterogenous =  different.      and of course homogeneity is something that's part of a breed.  )

I think it's better to find individuals who are NOT closely related but both have good type,   and complement each other.   Of course what may seem to be unrelated if you just look at a few generations,  may turn out to be more related than you thought, if you follow the pedigrees back a bit farther.    In our breed we are managing to get true outcrosses by importing some cats from the original source.

Here's a link to the breeding policy published by the GCCF ( General Council of the Cat Fancy,  the primary UK registry).  http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/BreedingPolicy.pdf

& here is a link to  a good article on inbreeding and genetics (it's on a series of pages ,  so just keep going to the next one)  written by Dr. Heather Lorimer who is a genetics professor and a longtime cat breeder.  http://people.ysu.edu/~helorimer/inbredgen.html      I think it is written in a clear way that's easy to understand.

 

[maewkaew]

@ Flint  

It's not exactly that the majority of the health problems are man-made in their origin.     It's not that the diseases are man-made,  for example HCM  exists in moggies,   and the majority of cases are in moggies  ( which one would expect since they're the vast majority of cats.)     but I think we probably would agree that humans have unwittingly contributed to spreading some problems that already existed.  They can become more prevalent in a breed if lines who have the problem were used a lot.   With cardiomyopathy,  tests and scans can reduce the incidence.  but i doubt they can absolutely eliminate it because there are multiple mutations that could be involved,  and  a cat might not test positive,  and also might have been bred several times by the time it becomes detectable in an ECG. 

An example of something that really is man-made is the problems resulting from the flat face of the Persian & Exotic.

There are some other things that are not exactly man-made but are partially the result of selecting for an extreme type.  like some people wanting  a very round domed head on the Burmese probably contributed to the spread of the Burmese craniofacial defect ,  since a bunch of people used cats who turned out to have that gene.   Fortunately once it became apparent and they were able to trace back where it came from , some breeders were careful to avoid using those cats    And better yet,  there's now a genetic test. 

 I was not in favor of accepting Munchkins  and I don't want to see an endless parade of munchkinized breeds,   but what did you hear they did to create them that they should go to jail?  Do you really mean Munchkins or are you maybe thinking of the "Twisty Cats" ?    I thought  the Munchkins started when just someone found some barn cats  with short legs that had been breeding randomly.   Then people started breeding them.   Dr. Pflueger,  the chair of TICA's genetics committee, bred them for about 7 years to study them & see if they had health problems,  and found that they seemed to be very healthy,  but just had short legs.    They did find that it seemed to be a gene in which 2 copies of it resulted in embryos that were not viable.  so they just were never born. 

 I later heard some comments that there may be more incidences of structural problems like lordosis and flat chested kittens but  I don't know how prevalent that is. 

 NOT that I think every time someone finds some weird mutation , it should e turned into a breed.   I actually am more opposed to Scottish Folds,  since reading that even cats with one copy of the mutation were prone to joint problems. 

& it always just seems weird to me to have a breed in which 2 cats who meet the standard can't be bred together without either some lethal effect on the embryos or a painful orthopedic problem!

CFA does seem to favor quite small, ultra-refined Siamese and Orientals.  I have heard of some cats who have shown very well in TICA ,  and are excellent examples of the standard, but in CFA were told they were 'too big' and need to be thinner.  These are cats I have seen and know they were in excellent condition, muscular , tubular, oriental body type, fine boning,  certainly not overweight.  But not miniaturized or emaciated and frail.    ( I realize that is relative though... people are so used to overweight pets that when they see a slender ,healthy cat or dog of any sort of streamlined type, they think they are emaciated. )

But I 'm not crazy about the term "apple head" as applied to Siamese,  which started out several decades ago as an insult for cats that were less extremely wedge headed; it was never an accurate description for most real Siamese, but  it's given people the idea that  the old Siamese were mostly round headed like a British Shorthair or something!    LOL,  I  have heard comments from a few people who believed that and went to Thailand and were surprised the Siamese in their native country  were not "apple headed"  ( though they also weren't anywhere nearly so extreme as the Siamese in the West had become via selective breeding to exaggerate the original look.)    Naturally,  there's a range of shape and some have more rounded heads than others.    but there's a reason why the British fanciers a century ago called the Siamese "marten faced" in comparison with most of the Western cats .  

And it's also true that  there was a lot of mixing of Siamese and Western moggies in the mid 20th century.   so some of the "appleheads" that people remember from childhood were likely mixes (which doesnt mean they were not great pets).  And I don't just mean the ones without papers,  since 60 years ago you could register a cat as a specific breed with CFA   just based on an affidavit that the cat was purebred.  

Travis,  sorry for going off on various tangents here!

 

[travisg96]

Thank you for your responses.  Tangents don’t bother me because I tend to do the same.

Flint, yes you really do need to read the book, even if it is outdated it at least gives some good background on things. I have done some research on the genetic problems in the Bengal breed which I love(please don't demonize me). I know that the line is susceptible to HCM and PK deficiency. I have corresponded with a geneticist at UC Davis about it and there are tests that can be done which I would do before proceeding. They are not that expensive and it would be worth it to know your breeding stock was free from the defect.

You had a cad that died from HCM, not to bring up bad memories but did you see him die or just find him dead? I had a nice big Mackerel tabby  and one day when I woke up and went to the bathroom the other bathroom door was open and Minnow was laying on the floor panting I reached down and petted him, he looked at me, urinated on the floor and died. I always wondered why he died, he was 9 years old and a indoor outdoor cat and had otherwise seemed healthy but he may have gotten into something. After hearing about HCM and how it can be unnoticeable until a cat is 5+ years old I wonder if he may have had some anomaly like that. He was just a DSH that I had gotten from someone off CL so I really don’t know anything about his heritage. 

Maewkaew, yes is is homogenous. According to what I read positive anomalies are very rare so looking for them to show up in at her lines can almost seem improbable. In this case the only way to to find them and make them homogenous would be to inbreed. The problem would appear to be that along with homogenizing the positive one might be also homogenizing the negative and once   things are set into a line they can be hard to breed out.

 

[flintmccullough]

HCM, in its origin, which they still don't know, where it came from, is not man made, or I should say, they haven't proved, at this point, that it was. They only recently discovered, a mutation gene, per say, hiding under another one. At one time, they were doing a study, of breed kitties, that had HCM, and a relation, to their diet, and vaccinations, the kitties had to physically go there. My vet said he could go. The study was in June, he passed in April.

What is man made, is the further of the the HCM, man (the breeders) allow it to continue, by not testing. The purpose of testing, is to remove the positive kitties from the breeding program. Yes, they can test negative, and develop it later. It can affect only 1 kitten in the litter, it can skip a generation, males are more prone, than females, but females can get it too. It jumps all around, they don't know yet, why. 

If breeders are not testing, they are continuing to breed the positive kitties, and they are contributing, to the kittens who get HCM.

My boy did not have to die. If they had tested, they would have removed his grandmother from the breeding program.  More to this story later, trying to recover, from a QB who don't seem to know, ya run the ball, and run out the clock, with a runner who is making 7 yards a run, and don't throw the ball, and stop the clock, and throw an interception, plus the bad weather here. Will finish this after work. 

 

[flintmccullough]

So, based on what I have been thru, my opinion, is that HCM, is man made.

I also feel, that CFA could clear this up, or at least lessen it, a very lot, if they made the breeders police theirselfs, as AQHA does. (Quarter Horse)

I grew up on a show horse farm. We showed on the AQHA circuit. When the stallion Impressive developed HYPP, and it was passed on to his foals, and foals of his line. And what happened to those foals and horses, was not pretty.  AQHA jumped right on it. When it was determined, all the foals/horses were traced back to Impressive, AQHA mandated testing for HYPP.  This is from memory, its been a few years now, but I believe, the positive ones were removed from the breeding program. Mares are not routinly spayed, as kitties are, stallions would have been gelded, which is pretty common, unless you have a top quality show stallion. 

AQHA made the breeders police theirselfs. In order to register the foal, he/she had to be tested for HYPP, if the foal was positive, he/she could not be registered. So the "big boys" the big ranches with a very lot of money, were losing money, losing a mare for 11 months, losing the very expensive sale of the foal, losing the points and resulting money, from showing the foal.  

If CFA would follow suit, it just might eradicate HCM or lessen the odds, greatly, that more kittens are born with HCM. Its very very simple, mandate HCM testing, prove, the stud and queen are negative, before the kittens can be registered.  Over time, the positive ones, are removed from the breeding program.

The judges refer to the Siamese of back when we were kids, as "apple headed", no offense was intended.

Travis, I have no issues with Bengals, one of my very good friends has one. We tried a few TICA shows, TICA does allow them, CFA won't even let them in the show hall. Back in July, at the Garden State show, in Sommerset NJ, they had a "meet and greet" for the Bengals. I even put it up on here. The Bengals were in an enclosed conference room. This is because, CFA is "considering" per say, and I say it very lightly, allowing Bengals to be shown in CFA, this was a start. The meet and greet, was open to exhibitors and spectators.

You cannot believe, how many beyond stupid, comments and threats were put on the CFA board.  People threatened not to show, people said their breed kitties were going to be contaminated, by breathing the same air, as the Bengals, just stupid stupid comments. Our Regional Director, told them to shut the heck up, and stop being so stupid. 

I don't believe it will ever be passed, but, its a start.

Her Bengal was very well behaved, my kitties were benched next to her, they had no issues with the kitty. I noticed too, all the Bengals at the TICA shows were well behaved, altho they were kinda loud, and had a very unusual almost wild kind of cry. It did not, at all, bother my kitties, they are used to going with the flow. 

My only issues with Bengal breeders, is not being more responsible, in finding homes for the kittens, more responsible, in making people aware, the kitties are on the very active side, and may be high maintence, per say, and not being more careful with the F's, which I still don't understand exactly what that means, other than, the number of generations, removed, from a or the wild cat.  I just think, they have a higher responsibility, in finding the right home, for the kitten. 

As far as my kitty, that story, is for another day, he was put down on Friday April 13 2012 at 11am, at the ER, there was just nothing more they could do, they had to call the men in the white coats for me, I was hysterical, and I still cry about him. He didn't have to die, it was due to ignorance, irresponsibility and greed of the breeders, that just didn't care, what they were creating.         

Most breeders are very responsible, and take great care, what they are creating, and finding good homes for the kittens. My issues, are with the small handfull of irresponsible ones. 

As far  as developing specific types, confirmation and color, I am very knowledgeable about that, not for kitties, but for horses, and its the same principal, with kitties.  I do have books on breeding kitties, which I never read, friends give them to me, too many, said I would be very good at it. I just can't do it, I would get too attached to the kittens, which, ya can't keep them all, and I would worry that the kittens are being well cared for. 

I also know about the "dark side" of breeding, and what some do, with lesser quality kittens, or kittens that have "an issue", I couldn't do that. 

As an example, and this is with dogs, because one of my friends rescues Dalmations. Dalmations are prone to being deaf. At a certain age, the puppies are sent to a specialist for a hearing test, if they are deaf, they are put down.  My friend rescues the puppies, the breeders give them to her, she teaches them with sign language, and they are very well trained, but she can't take them all in. Thats just one example, of the dark side of breeding, there are so many.  Thats too, the responsibility, breeders must take on, if they are going to breed, and create a living breathing creature.      

 

[travisg96]

Flint,

Where I live there are so few cat shows. There is an occasional cat show in town(eugene) usually CFA and an annual international show(Portland) that is a TICA show. There are more dog shows than cat shows, Portland is 100 miles away and is a big city you would think there would be more cat fanciers there.

As regards to the CFA's lack of acceptance of wild hybrid cats,  I have spoken to people who are from India about the leopard cats  and despite what they say about them not breeding with the domestic cats is untrue. So if the two cats will breed int the wild(no matter how limited) how can it be said that it is a man made breed. Of course this is limited to Bengal cats I don't think the same is true about savannahs. 

Robinson speaks in the book about people who think that traits can be passed on just by the cats being in the same proximity. He says that this is akin to people who tried to breed tailless

mice by cutting the tails off of the mice they were breeding.

Yes Bengals are a very active breed and they do have an interesting meow that  almost is reminiscent of a yowl.  mine are aloof and like loving on their terms although my Siamese is like that also. That is not saying they are not friendly but they are not lap cats. My orange cream cat will come sleep on my chest my Bengal will not but the Bengal will sleep next to me in bed but if I try to hold him he will run away.

F stands for Fileal. It comes from the latin filius meaning son and filia meaning daughter.  It is used to designate the  generation they are away from the original breeding. a f3 is 3 generations away fron the initial  ALC cross and a f6 is 6 generations away and so on.

Travis

 

[andrya]

I also know about the "dark side" of breeding, and what some do, with lesser quality kittens, or kittens that have "an issue", I couldn't do that. 

As an example, and this is with dogs, because one of my friends rescues Dalmations. Dalmations are prone to being deaf. At a certain age, the puppies are sent to a specialist for a hearing test, if they are deaf, they are put down.  My friend rescues the puppies, the breeders give them to her, she teaches them with sign language, and they are very well trained, but she can't take them all in. Thats just one example, of the dark side of breeding, there are so many.  Thats too, the responsibility, breeders must take on, if they are going to breed, and create a living breathing creature.      

Hi Flint, it's nice to see you back 

l'd like to throw in also that it "seems" to be still going on in the dog world. My Pom is affected by BSD, which is hugely prevalent in Poms. Some say since they have gone from looking Spitz-ish to being short-bodied, fluffy, and short-nosed/teddy bear. l've been privvy to many conversations where the finger is being firmly pointed towards one breeder, a very famous breeder who bred phenomenally beautiful dogs. A couple of those dogs are in my dog's pedigree, one is one of the most famous Poms from back in the day. 

lt seems that BSD-affected Poms are still being bred, since it rarely shows up before 3 years old and the dog has done the show circuit by then. 

lf it can't be ascertained that the disease is genetic, and there is no test for it, it is up to the breeders whether they want to breed the dog, or to be bred to the the dog, in the hope of having correctly-coated puppies. As evidenced in the years of continued breeding and the heavy prevalence of BSD, the breeders run the full spectrum on responsibility with what seems to be no oversight.