Possible breeds in the kittens' background?

[goldenkitty45]

Sol,

The classic tabby in that litter was a red - very deep red markings - and mom was the tortie / dad that black smoke. The only "tabbies" I ever got were red or cream (one cream tabby female)

Like I said in that litter there was a deep red classic tabby, a medium shade of mackeral tabby and a true red (faint mctabby pattern which disappeared when older).

 

[sol]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Sol,

The classic tabby in that litter was a red - very deep red markings - and mom was the tortie / dad that black smoke. The only "tabbies" I ever got were red or cream (one cream tabby female)

Like I said in that litter there was a deep red classic tabby, a medium shade of mackeral tabby and a true red (faint mctabby pattern which disappeared when older).

In that case it's easy. I'd explain it with them not being true tabbies. Genotype non-agouti, possibly agouti phenotype. As I said, it can be extremely hard to separate a solid from a tabby. Especially with Rex cats or DSH/DLH where color normally doesn't matter when a mating is done.

Quoting CFA on Feline genetics:

A dominant characteristic (all dominant colors and patterns such as shaded, smoke, white, tabby, bi-color, etc.) cannot skip generations. The characteristic cannot be transmitted from one generation to the next without showing that characteristic in each generation.

A cat displaying a dominant color (black, red, tortie, etc.) must have a parent which displays a dominant color (see #21).

Two recessive color parents (cream, blue, etc.) cannot produce an offspring of a dominant color (black, red, etc.). (My comment: two solid cats are genetically recessive for the agouti gene.)

All red cats will have some tabby markings. Whether or not a red can produce as a tabby will depend on whether it is a true tabby with a tabby or shaded parent or whether it is a red with ghost tabby markings and neither a tabby nor a shaded parent. A red tabby that is not a true tabby cannot produce a tabby offspring of any other color without being bred to a true tabby or a shaded.

Your red tabbies with a solid tortie and a solid black smoke cannot be anything else but red cats with ghost pattern however, the ghost pattern can be strong enough to be taken for true tabby. Genetically though, it's an impossible outcome.

There are true tabbies with very poor pattern too that are exposed as tabbies only when they're bred to say a solid blue or black cat and produce blue or brown tabby offspring.

Red vs. red tabby IS tricky, sometimes extremely tricky. If lucky you have a pedigree that reveals if tabby even is possible or not. In your case you have a pedigree that shows that tabby outcome is genetically impossible.

 

[goldenkitty45]

I know what you are saying, but this guy was classic tabby - very dominate and clear - there was no mistaking him for anything else. Even the judges remarked on his outstanding tabby markings and color.

Now I know that normal genetics are supposed to follow the rules. BUT I know of a case of a black BSH that was produced from 2 blue BSH - they were blue - not washed out blacks. CFA didn't want to register the kitten, but this BSH was a top breeder and there were NO other males owned at the time - one blue one. Mom was bred to that (mom was blue). I don't know what the outcome was, but genetically it was not supposed to be that way.

Also with my Ling - she (and siblings) were all born as blue tabbies/white - then changed to blue point with tabby markings and then to seal point with tabby markings (blue) - finally to black/white by 4-5 months old.

I've had several friends who are very into genetics try to explain that one and neither one can come up with it.

So genetics don't always hold true. You have that 1% that defies explanation

And the case with Godiva's Tobie (chocolate smoke ticked tabby) with a silver tabby sister - out of a blue scottish fold (not sure what the father was - I think brown or chocolate tabby. Tell me how that happened in the same litter

 

[sol]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I know what you are saying, but this guy was classic tabby - very dominate and clear - there was no mistaking him for anything else. Even the judges remarked on his outstanding tabby markings and color.

I'd still say it's a solid. One of those with phenotype agouti but with non-agouti genotype. Some cases are impossible to tell by only looking at the cat. This is why red is a pain.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Now I know that normal genetics are supposed to follow the rules. BUT I know of a case of a black BSH that was produced from 2 blue BSH - they were blue - not washed out blacks. CFA didn't want to register the kitten, but this BSH was a top breeder and there were NO other males owned at the time - one blue one. Mom was bred to that (mom was blue). I don't know what the outcome was, but genetically it was not supposed to be that way.

This I won't believe unless there's a DNA-test that confirms parenthood. I know of a "miracle white kitten" born in Sweden. Non of the parents were white. The breeder was of course a serious, well known breeder that were completely sure that the named father was the father. The registry made her DNA-test, sure enough... the named father wasn't the real father even though she was 100% sure of who the father was.

Yeah, I'm a sceptic. I've learned that faulty pedigrees are quite common and the further back you look... the bigger the risk for faults to appear.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Also with my Ling - she (and siblings) were all born as blue tabbies/white - then changed to blue point with tabby markings and then to seal point with tabby markings (blue) - finally to black/white by 4-5 months old.

This one you've told about before and no, there's no logic explanation for this one. Some kind of strange pigmentation development, but it can't be compared to the red tabby case. I'm guessing the final outcome, black with white wasn't a genetically impossible outcome? It's "just" a funky color development in the kittens.

Red cats can have the phenotype of a red tabby without being genetically red tabby. That is well known and there's a scientific explanation to it so it's really nothing strange about it... reds with the phenotype red tabby that is.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

So genetics don't always hold true. You have that 1% that defies explanation

There are a few genetic mysteries, absolutely but the large majority of them have logic explanations and one very common is that breeders make false pedigrees (I know this statement bugs many breeders). Sometimes people simply don't determine right color in a cat and therefor get "impossible" outcome in a litter.

We have x-colors in the NFO, a mystery yet unsolved and there are genetic mutations, infections, toxic substances etc. might disturb the pigmentation development... but in most cases there are perfectly logic explanations. The laws of inheritance hold true in the large majority of cases. However, sometimes it's a lot funnier to believe a cat is a genetic miracle than that the breeder/owner has made a mistake.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

And the case with Godiva's Tobie (chocolate smoke ticked tabby) with a silver tabby sister - out of a blue scottish fold (not sure what the father was - I think brown or chocolate tabby. Tell me how that happened in the same litter

What is it that strange about this litter? The silver? There's an explanation for that.

 

[goldenkitty45]

The entire combination - the blue was not a smoke, yet Tobie is (and a chocolate ticked tabby too. Yes his dad was a tabby so that explains it, but where did the silver come from out of a brown or chocolate tabby and a blue?

And the BSH - there was only one male in the house - so there was no other possibility of the mom mating with another cat.

I do know that when researching the crex's pedigrees back to Kalibunker there were some wrong color combinations. But seriously, this guy I had was a classic tabby. You couldn't get any clearer color pattern if you tried

And I will agree with you on the red/red tabby's with the rexes - I'm sure many of them were not real red tabbys (especially the mack ones)

 

[bab-ush-niik]

There are many possibilities for these oddities even if the records were correct, including the possibility of a chimera. Only way to be sure would to do a genetic test, and if the cat's a chimera, you'd have to test the reproductive organs too just be sure. Still, most cases are likely human error.

I'm surprised the cat associations allow registration if a cat clearly defies genetics. It seems like they should allow registration in this case only if genetic testing is done and if the parent's registry is changed to reflect any coloring mistakes.

 

[sol]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

The entire combination - the blue was not a smoke, yet Tobie is (and a chocolate ticked tabby too. Yes his dad was a tabby so that explains it, but where did the silver come from out of a brown or chocolate tabby and a blue?

The explanation probably lies with the wideband gene/wideband genes. A very talented cat breeder explained to be that how "silvery" a cat is depends on the wideband gene/wideband genes (it's unclear if it's a wideband gene or if there are many wideband genes). No matter what, the degree of widebanding affects the silver effect in silver cats. Now, I know you're saying non of the parens are silver BUT a cat may be so very little "widebanded" that the silver never shows. Not until it's bred to a non-silver and produce silver offspring... the other cat might contribute with enough widebanding to make the silver show in the offspring that inherit silver.