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- #21
Can anyone tell me their story of Lymphoma and how the end plays out?
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Please Help. IBD, Lymphoma, or other. Charlie is running out of time
- Thread starter rushpapers
- Start Date
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #22
Lactated Ringer's has no sugar source, however there are IV drips that do have Glucose. I have no experience using them.
There have been mixed results as far as lymphoma goes. There is one kitty here that has been in remission for 2 years from large cell lymphoma others have not responded to chemo. You would have to get a biopsy done before trying chemo, not only to know if it is lymphoma but also rather it is large cell or small cell. Small cell chemo is a pill called leukeran that is given at home. Large cell is given by IV at the vets office and each round is a different chemo drug.
Different fluids have different purposes. Has he been checked for anemia due to the blood loss?
If you have not ordered or purchased S boulardii yet, please, please do so. The Jarrow brand is usually available at most health food stores or a vitamin shop. Unfortunately, it is not palatable, so you'll have to find size 3 gelcaps and dump out the S boulardii from the Jarrow caps and manually fill the gel caps. He'll have to be pilled because it's just not palatable.
However, if you want to wait to give it, you can order it from Amazon, and at the same time, order Yunnan Baiyao. Yunnan Baiyao is VERY effective at stopping internal bleeding. It is used by many vets, even traditional ones, especially for ulcers or ulcerations in the GI tract. Here's the wiki on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunnan_Baiyao
To use it, give him the emergency "stop bleeding" tea pill in the center. Then pill with one of the capsules every day for 3 days, then every other day for 3 days, then every 3rd day for 3 days, and that's all.
here is information on S boulardii (which, BTW, is recommended by some vets, and is an ingredient in a European treatment for IBD):
http://www.horizonpress.com/cimb/v/v11/47.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296087/pdf/10.1177_1756283X11428502.pdf
This is the Jarrow Brand:
This is how to use it - follow the "emergency stop diarrhea" instructions: http://www.ibdkitties.net/Probiotics.html
Gel caps:
Both of these things (Yunnan baiyao and S boulardii) can be safely administered with whatever meds you are currently giving him. :heart2:
I would make a bone broth ASAP. Even though it will take longer, I would consider using something other than chicken if that has been a major factor in his diet. Pork is generally well tolerated as a "novel protein" that we can easily access. Do not get smoked anything, but you want bones for the broth. Kitty may not like the bone broth, that's not unusual, but the stage 1 broth is usually liked, even though it doesn't have the same health benefits. Here is information on WHY bone broth for IBD (it helps heal leaky gut)
https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/reasons-your-dog-love-bone-broth/
Here is HOW:
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/12/02/pet-bone-broth.aspx
Please note there is a transcript in PDF if you don't want to watch the video.
More on bone broth:
http://www.theorganicview.com/recipes-health/cook-your-pet-a-healthy-broth/
It's usually not a good idea to fast IBD kitties for long. MAYBE 12 hours, but especially with pancreatitis, they tend to get acid build-up. With IBD and pancreatitis, it is best to feed as many small meals as possible. When our Ming Loy had pancreatitis, I took her daily total need for food and divided it into 12 and fed her every 2 hours for a week (I work from home). That's not practical for most - but the more frequent, smaller meals you can feed the better. That said, I suggest feeding just the bone broth OR the stage 1 stock for 2 - 3 days while using the Yunnan Baiyao and the S boulardii.
The other tools you should have on hand:
Slippery Elm Bark Powder (SEB) and George's Aloe Vera juice. It must be George's, as this is the only one that distills out the latex that is toxic to cats. It is not organic, but it has no preservatives. As Dr. Hofve says, SEB is basically a natural pepto-bismol. It is also VERY healing to the GI tract, also helping heal the leaky gut that characterizes IBD. You mix the SEB 50/50 with the aloe vera (instead of water) and syringe this into kitty 1/2 an hour before feeding to help settle the tummy. It can be given any time in relation to the Yunnan Baiyao or the S. boulardii, but it should be given at least 2 hours on either side of any prescription meds.
Both of these are also usually available at a health food store or vitamin shop.
Edited to add link to Dr. Hofve's article on slippery elm: http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/slippery-elm/
Acid & nausea. Other helpful meds in the tool chest: While the slippery elm usually obviates the need for an antacid, some find they need either pepcid a/c (famotidine) or zantac (rantidine). Best to buy the generics (make sure it's the lowest dose available), as the brands have weird shapes. If you use famotidine, start with just 1/4 tablet once a day, at night. Most effective if given at least 1 hour after and before any food. Same with rantidine, though the dose there is 1/8 of a tablet. Which to use.... just depends. If you use one and it doesn't seem to help, try the other. You can bump the dose to twice a day (AM and PM) if necessary.
Appetite. Have you used an appetite stimulant? Cyproheptadine, though given 2x a day, is safer than mirtazipine. Mirtazipine makes some kittles REALLY loopy, even though it is given only once every three days, which makes it much more convenient. Cypro is an antihistamine. I'm giving Flowerbelle ceterizine (zyrtec) - 1/4 of a table once a day (seasonal allergies) - and her appetite is off the charts. I'd forgotten cypro is an anti-histamine. Seems any antihistamine will do it.
Motility & nausea. Sometimes kitty needs help with motility. That can also make them feel nauseous. Reglan stimulates gastric emptying. You can ask the vet about this. This also acts as an anti-emetic by helping the food move in the correct direction.
Anti-nausea (technically an anti-emetic, even though kitty may not be vomiting). While the SEB will also likely help with nausea, you may need something stronger. Lazlo needed cerenia. And his biggest problem was nausea, in fact, and giving him the anti-nausea medication did more to help his appetite than anything else. We used it off-label. Normally it is 1/4 tablet once a day for 5 days with 2 days off - though I think the dose is higher when used that way. Anyway, we used 1/4 tablet every day during his entire course of chemo (6 months).
Many, many people have been where you are with Charlie. :heart2: Even with a biopsy, the diagnosis of lymphoma can be really hard to nail down. Some opt to treat with leukeran despite no diagnosis: many decide just to treat the IBD and make kitty as comfortable as possible. And there are many, many kitties out there that are now 2, 3, and 4 years into "it might be cancer." There's just no way to know unless you get lucky with a biopsy, which is often inconclusive anyway.
I don't know what you've been feeding, but if it was kibble, definitely stop feeding it and remove it from his diet. It is so highly processed, even "the best" kibbles are not good for IBD kitties. The least inflammatory diet for him would be homemade raw, but not everyone can do that, is comfortable with it, or .... whatever. The best diet for him, in that case, is at least a high protein, as low carb as possible canned food with as few ingredients as possible. I really haven't kept up on those, but one ingredient you REALLY want to avoid for an IBD kitty is carrageenan. Xanthan gum can be a problem too, but that makes it pretty much impossible to feed anything. I know Nature's Variety Instinct foods have no gums in them - they use montmorillonite clay (which helps detox) and lecithin (which is also healthy, although this is a soy-based ingredient, it's much better than any of the gums). The problem is it's expensive. :dk:
But IBD is all about inflammation. The issue so often is usually species-inappropriate ingredients or the low quality of ingredients combined with fillers (thickeners, etc) and being so very highly processed. This is the same for people too. OR it can be induced by parasites, and subsequent use of antibiotics which disrupts the normal gut flora. Everything can seem fine for years, but over time the chronic state of inflammation catches up - and results in leaky gut that expresses itself often as "allergies" at first, and then IBD.
Here are some quick summaries / overviews:
http://feline-nutrition.org/health/feline-inflammatory-bowel-disease-nature-and-treatment
http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...012/09/24/pets-gi-inflammation-treatment.aspx
http://www.allfelinehospital.com/site/view/206534_inflammatoryboweldisease.pml - please note, this hospital mentions that in treating IBD:
Flagyl / metronadizole. This medication should be used only short-term. MANY, many vets prescribe it like it's safe, and leave kitties on it long term. If your kitty has ANY kidney issues, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not use flagyl, and ask for Tylosin instead: http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/dig...lammatory_bowel_disease_in_small_animals.html
http://www.vetinfo.com/treating-diarrhea-tylosin.html
So to help, it is imperative to treat the leaky gut and the bacterial imbalance in the intestines. The traditional protocol - steriods and flagyl (metronadizole) - suppress the inflammation, but do not help kitty heal. They just help manage the symptoms. Which is fine - but if you want to help kitty heal as WELL as manage the symptoms, you need to take the steps to stop the leaky gut and restore normal function to the intestines. This means using diet and probiotics. The S boulardii helps - usually VERY quickly to stop the diarrhea. But you'll also need an L acidophilus supplement to restore the healthy bacteria. S boulardii is not a bacteria-based probiotic, it is a yeast, it does not colonize the gut. It must constantly be refreshed, as once you stop giving it, it leaves the body. But you can read about probiotics on the IBD kitties page to which I provided a link.
Vibes for you and Charlie.
However, if you want to wait to give it, you can order it from Amazon, and at the same time, order Yunnan Baiyao. Yunnan Baiyao is VERY effective at stopping internal bleeding. It is used by many vets, even traditional ones, especially for ulcers or ulcerations in the GI tract. Here's the wiki on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunnan_Baiyao
To use it, give him the emergency "stop bleeding" tea pill in the center. Then pill with one of the capsules every day for 3 days, then every other day for 3 days, then every 3rd day for 3 days, and that's all.
here is information on S boulardii (which, BTW, is recommended by some vets, and is an ingredient in a European treatment for IBD):
http://www.horizonpress.com/cimb/v/v11/47.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296087/pdf/10.1177_1756283X11428502.pdf
This is the Jarrow Brand:
This is how to use it - follow the "emergency stop diarrhea" instructions: http://www.ibdkitties.net/Probiotics.html
Gel caps:
Both of these things (Yunnan baiyao and S boulardii) can be safely administered with whatever meds you are currently giving him. :heart2:
I would make a bone broth ASAP. Even though it will take longer, I would consider using something other than chicken if that has been a major factor in his diet. Pork is generally well tolerated as a "novel protein" that we can easily access. Do not get smoked anything, but you want bones for the broth. Kitty may not like the bone broth, that's not unusual, but the stage 1 broth is usually liked, even though it doesn't have the same health benefits. Here is information on WHY bone broth for IBD (it helps heal leaky gut)
https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/reasons-your-dog-love-bone-broth/
Here is HOW:
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/12/02/pet-bone-broth.aspx
Please note there is a transcript in PDF if you don't want to watch the video.
More on bone broth:
http://www.theorganicview.com/recipes-health/cook-your-pet-a-healthy-broth/
It's usually not a good idea to fast IBD kitties for long. MAYBE 12 hours, but especially with pancreatitis, they tend to get acid build-up. With IBD and pancreatitis, it is best to feed as many small meals as possible. When our Ming Loy had pancreatitis, I took her daily total need for food and divided it into 12 and fed her every 2 hours for a week (I work from home). That's not practical for most - but the more frequent, smaller meals you can feed the better. That said, I suggest feeding just the bone broth OR the stage 1 stock for 2 - 3 days while using the Yunnan Baiyao and the S boulardii.
The other tools you should have on hand:
Slippery Elm Bark Powder (SEB) and George's Aloe Vera juice. It must be George's, as this is the only one that distills out the latex that is toxic to cats. It is not organic, but it has no preservatives. As Dr. Hofve says, SEB is basically a natural pepto-bismol. It is also VERY healing to the GI tract, also helping heal the leaky gut that characterizes IBD. You mix the SEB 50/50 with the aloe vera (instead of water) and syringe this into kitty 1/2 an hour before feeding to help settle the tummy. It can be given any time in relation to the Yunnan Baiyao or the S. boulardii, but it should be given at least 2 hours on either side of any prescription meds.
Both of these are also usually available at a health food store or vitamin shop.
Edited to add link to Dr. Hofve's article on slippery elm: http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/slippery-elm/
Acid & nausea. Other helpful meds in the tool chest: While the slippery elm usually obviates the need for an antacid, some find they need either pepcid a/c (famotidine) or zantac (rantidine). Best to buy the generics (make sure it's the lowest dose available), as the brands have weird shapes. If you use famotidine, start with just 1/4 tablet once a day, at night. Most effective if given at least 1 hour after and before any food. Same with rantidine, though the dose there is 1/8 of a tablet. Which to use.... just depends. If you use one and it doesn't seem to help, try the other. You can bump the dose to twice a day (AM and PM) if necessary.
Appetite. Have you used an appetite stimulant? Cyproheptadine, though given 2x a day, is safer than mirtazipine. Mirtazipine makes some kittles REALLY loopy, even though it is given only once every three days, which makes it much more convenient. Cypro is an antihistamine. I'm giving Flowerbelle ceterizine (zyrtec) - 1/4 of a table once a day (seasonal allergies) - and her appetite is off the charts. I'd forgotten cypro is an anti-histamine. Seems any antihistamine will do it.
Motility & nausea. Sometimes kitty needs help with motility. That can also make them feel nauseous. Reglan stimulates gastric emptying. You can ask the vet about this. This also acts as an anti-emetic by helping the food move in the correct direction.
Anti-nausea (technically an anti-emetic, even though kitty may not be vomiting). While the SEB will also likely help with nausea, you may need something stronger. Lazlo needed cerenia. And his biggest problem was nausea, in fact, and giving him the anti-nausea medication did more to help his appetite than anything else. We used it off-label. Normally it is 1/4 tablet once a day for 5 days with 2 days off - though I think the dose is higher when used that way. Anyway, we used 1/4 tablet every day during his entire course of chemo (6 months).
Many, many people have been where you are with Charlie. :heart2: Even with a biopsy, the diagnosis of lymphoma can be really hard to nail down. Some opt to treat with leukeran despite no diagnosis: many decide just to treat the IBD and make kitty as comfortable as possible. And there are many, many kitties out there that are now 2, 3, and 4 years into "it might be cancer." There's just no way to know unless you get lucky with a biopsy, which is often inconclusive anyway.
I don't know what you've been feeding, but if it was kibble, definitely stop feeding it and remove it from his diet. It is so highly processed, even "the best" kibbles are not good for IBD kitties. The least inflammatory diet for him would be homemade raw, but not everyone can do that, is comfortable with it, or .... whatever. The best diet for him, in that case, is at least a high protein, as low carb as possible canned food with as few ingredients as possible. I really haven't kept up on those, but one ingredient you REALLY want to avoid for an IBD kitty is carrageenan. Xanthan gum can be a problem too, but that makes it pretty much impossible to feed anything. I know Nature's Variety Instinct foods have no gums in them - they use montmorillonite clay (which helps detox) and lecithin (which is also healthy, although this is a soy-based ingredient, it's much better than any of the gums). The problem is it's expensive. :dk:
But IBD is all about inflammation. The issue so often is usually species-inappropriate ingredients or the low quality of ingredients combined with fillers (thickeners, etc) and being so very highly processed. This is the same for people too. OR it can be induced by parasites, and subsequent use of antibiotics which disrupts the normal gut flora. Everything can seem fine for years, but over time the chronic state of inflammation catches up - and results in leaky gut that expresses itself often as "allergies" at first, and then IBD.
Here are some quick summaries / overviews:
http://feline-nutrition.org/health/feline-inflammatory-bowel-disease-nature-and-treatment
http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...012/09/24/pets-gi-inflammation-treatment.aspx
http://www.allfelinehospital.com/site/view/206534_inflammatoryboweldisease.pml - please note, this hospital mentions that in treating IBD:
Now - they're incorrect about the "a lot" of ingredients. It's actually quite easy to make a food that meets AAFCO. And if you use eggshell instead of bone, you can use a food processor and don't need to invest in a grinder ( and many IBD kitties do better on the eggshell rather than bone anyway). It's definitely cheaper to make homemade than to feed Nature's Variety Instinct cans. No matter whether you opt for cooked or raw. We can help in the raw & home cooked forum if you're interested. There are also numerous threads in the health forum discussing foods without various fillers in them.
Flagyl / metronadizole. This medication should be used only short-term. MANY, many vets prescribe it like it's safe, and leave kitties on it long term. If your kitty has ANY kidney issues, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not use flagyl, and ask for Tylosin instead: http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/dig...lammatory_bowel_disease_in_small_animals.html
http://www.vetinfo.com/treating-diarrhea-tylosin.html
So to help, it is imperative to treat the leaky gut and the bacterial imbalance in the intestines. The traditional protocol - steriods and flagyl (metronadizole) - suppress the inflammation, but do not help kitty heal. They just help manage the symptoms. Which is fine - but if you want to help kitty heal as WELL as manage the symptoms, you need to take the steps to stop the leaky gut and restore normal function to the intestines. This means using diet and probiotics. The S boulardii helps - usually VERY quickly to stop the diarrhea. But you'll also need an L acidophilus supplement to restore the healthy bacteria. S boulardii is not a bacteria-based probiotic, it is a yeast, it does not colonize the gut. It must constantly be refreshed, as once you stop giving it, it leaves the body. But you can read about probiotics on the IBD kitties page to which I provided a link.
Vibes for you and Charlie.
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