Pippin has Crystals!

[devlyn]

He's on the dry formula. I asked for the pills actually because Pippin hates hates hates the liquid clavamox. I thought the pills might be easier since I've never had problems giving pills before. First time for everything right? lol
Thanks for all the vibes. I think he ate a little of the RX food last night. I threw a handful of the junk food on top hoping that he would "accidentally" get some of the good stuff and like it.

Devlyn

 

[bkydrose]

I add a bit of crushed catnip to one of my cat's dry food and water. I think he's been eating and drinking more because of the catnip, but he won't eat canned food no matter how much catnip is on it.

 

[devlyn]

I've tried putting cat nip in with the RC S/O but he just sniffs at it and turns away. He's such a brat!
He acts like his food bowl is full of turds, and the other cats eat it like it's candy! WTH!
I just don't understand him, he ate it the first day and seemed to like it and now he hates it. So weird!

 

[devlyn]

So I went to PetSmart and picked up some of the nutro max cat roasted chicken formula and some cans of nutro max cat, nutro naturals and blue spa as well as some of Pippin's favorite Meow Mix Packets.
I mixed some of the nutro naturals with some nutro dry food and some of the RC S/O and even added some KRM for "gravy". He definitely ate some of the dry in his little mix of food, so that's a good thing.
I got the Nutro Dry because it was talking about balancing the PH levels in the urine, which he needs. He didn't seem too interested in it without some canned food smeared on it, but that's ok, because I'm trying to get him super hydrated so that he's constantly flushing out his system. Hopefully that will help keep him from getting blocked up. I'd like him to eat canned food with some dry during the day to nibble on.
If he would eat the RC S/O on it's own, or in combo with the canned food, it would at least help with the crystals. He ate some of it, and some of the nutro, so at least he's not eating the junk.
I also gave him some of the blue spa pate style food and he ate at it, but I don't think he really likes the texture. He's a big fan of "bits in gravy", probably because the pate sticks to the roof of his mouth. Damn this pet food recall. :/
He's back into the vet on Monday, so hopefully his crystals will be down at least a bit.
Sinbad's Mom recommended I feed him some sodium ascorbate or ascorbate acid in his food each day. She said it helped with her cat when she had problems with crystals.
Does anyone else have experience with this? She cited an article by Dr. Belfield, but I honestly couldn't follow it because it was too scientific and my brain just don't operate like that.

If it doesn't help, will it hurt him? I just don't want to give it to him and then have another problem crop up.
I plan on asking my vet about it, but he may not have any info on it. I know that vets have to absorb a LOT of info about a LOT of different animals in a relatively short period, so they aren't and can't have godlike knowledge, but it sure would be useful! lol!
Any other recommends for me to ask my vet about when I go in on Monday?
I was really hoping Pippin would go crazy for the Nutro and RC (like EVERY OTHER CAT in this house is!!!), but since he's not I'll try to make it as palatable as possible.

Devlyn

 

[jean44]

I've also read posts regarding using sodium ascorbate as a supplement for cats with crystals. I did a little searching on the web and as far as I'm concerned the results are mixed. Here are two links that provide varying points of view. I'm interested in these issues because I have two cats with crystals who are currently eating S/D with their wet food. If there is anything I can do to get rid of the S/D and/or C/D I'm interested.

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch8a.php

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...=show&item=017

Continued good wishes and vibes to you in your search for a combination of food that Pippin will eat. I hope you get good results at your vet visit Monday.

 

[beandip]

I agree that the results are mixed when it comes to sodium ascorbate for urinary issues.

There's also this Wysong supplement...

http://www.wysong.net/Merchant2/merc...roduct_Count=9

It's got a long list of ingredients, but it looks like it's been formulated to be "tasty", maybe? I have not tried it myself. It is meant to lower the pH, which may not be useful for you and Pippin...see my note below.

I wonder how much DL-Methionine is in the Wysong product? It's the 3rd ingredient, so it must be quite a bit. I suppose I should ask them. I wonder too, how much of the DL-Methionine is in a serving of S/D?

Questions to ask Pippin's vet...I would ask what his pH is or has been. I'm curious to know how he managed to get both oxalate and struvite crystals (ask that too

). Although I suppose it's not impossible, it seems odd as the 2 types require a very different pH environment in order to form. Knowing the pH could help you with your food/supplement choices too. I do not know for sure but I think the Vitamin C treatment is more useful for struvite (forms in high pH), rather than oxalate (forms in low pH). So yes, acidifying Pippin's urine could be bad if he's prone to oxalate crystals. That is still very puzzling to me how he could have both. But I haven't really read up on oxalate, as we haven't (thankfully) crossed that bridge, yet.

This all sort of goes back to what Sharky said, if Pippin has both types of crystals it really limits your choices on food and/or supplements. There are just a couple of foods formulated to prevent BOTH types...it takes some tricky science to do that.

 

[devlyn]

Well I took Pippin in today for his "appointment" and then realized his appointment isn't till the 23rd lol! I'm such a dumass. Anyways, I got him checked out anyways since I was there and we got another urinalysis.
His PH is up to 8 now. I mentioned that I thought that was too alkyline, and he said "his urine is like battery acid". I was a little confused and figured that I must have the PH scale backwards, but when I looked it up when I got home, I found out that I was, in face, correct.
I'm not really sure what to do about that though, except try him on the canned SO which I picked up. Pippin actually likes the canned, so I've been mixing it with his dry SO and he's been eating some. He's also started coming down and looking at me when he's hungry, so I know when to go fix him a meal (even with the free feeder with cat chow in it). So that's a positive sign!
I got some anti-inflammatories for him as well. I'm hoping that they will help take down the swelling in his urethra and make it easier for him to pee, which will help with flushing out the crystals hopefully.
I told the vet that it seemed somewhat unusual for him to have BOTH kinds of crystals, and he said that it wasn't that uncommon, but I don't think anyone has posted yet who said that they had an experience with it. I've also had difficulty finding any information on cats with both crystals on vet and cat health websites.
I really do like my vet so I'm going to see how things progress on the SO food. The vet tech told me that Pippin will be on the SO food for the rest of his life, but I'm not sure how I feel about that. The ingredients aren't all that good sounding to me. The canned SO has meat-byproducts as it's second ingredient and also has lots of corn and grains.
I'm also planning on trying the new hills multicare cd when it comes out, to see if that formula works and/or tastes better to Pippin.
We have also ordered some Cosequin as a supplement to help with his bladder wall. Does anyone have any experience with that?
This is what the Cosequin website said:
"My veterinarian mentioned that Cosequin can be used to help maintain the health of my cat's bladder. How does this work?
Some veterinarians also recommend Cosequin to help maintain urinary bladder health. The inner lining of the bladder wall is protected by a layer, which contains some of the same compounds as are found in cartilage. This layer keeps urine and the waste products contained within it from seeping into and affecting the lining. Since the low molecular weight chondroitin sulfate found only in Cosequin is available to more than just cartilage cells, the bladder may use it to help support this protective layer."

I feel like my best bet is to continue to get him to eat the SO food and push lots and lots of fluids to try to flush him out. I'm just not sure what I should be looking at as far as his urine ph (to acidify or not?). The vet said that struvite crystals shouldn't be able to survive in his very acidic urine, but like I said, it's NOT acidic, it's alkyline.
I would guess that it's probably too alkyline to be good for either type of crystal, so perhaps feeding him twice a day will help that, since when they eat their bladder gets more alkaline (from what I've read).

If anyone can see some sort of flaw in my logic, please say so. I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about, but I could just be talking out of my butt! lol

He did say he could refer me to an internal specialist, but I feel like we are just starting down this road, and maybe I should wait on that till later.

Anyways, I just wanted to post an update.

Thanks for all the advice!

Devlyn

Originally Posted by beandip

I agree that the results are mixed when it comes to sodium ascorbate for urinary issues.

There's also this Wysong supplement...

http://www.wysong.net/Merchant2/merc...roduct_Count=9

It's got a long list of ingredients, but it looks like it's been formulated to be "tasty", maybe? I have not tried it myself. It is meant to lower the pH, which may not be useful for you and Pippin...see my note below.

I wonder how much DL-Methionine is in the Wysong product? It's the 3rd ingredient, so it must be quite a bit. I suppose I should ask them. I wonder too, how much of the DL-Methionine is in a serving of S/D?

Questions to ask Pippin's vet...I would ask what his pH is or has been. I'm curious to know how he managed to get both oxalate and struvite crystals (ask that too

). Although I suppose it's not impossible, it seems odd as the 2 types require a very different pH environment in order to form. Knowing the pH could help you with your food/supplement choices too. I do not know for sure but I think the Vitamin C treatment is more useful for struvite (forms in high pH), rather than oxalate (forms in low pH). So yes, acidifying Pippin's urine could be bad if he's prone to oxalate crystals. That is still very puzzling to me how he could have both. But I haven't really read up on oxalate, as we haven't (thankfully) crossed that bridge, yet.

This all sort of goes back to what Sharky said, if Pippin has both types of crystals it really limits your choices on food and/or supplements. There are just a couple of foods formulated to prevent BOTH types...it takes some tricky science to do that.

 

[mskitty666]

I am currently trying the Cosequin for cats for three of my oldest kitties. Two have started to show signs of mild arthritis. I was very interested in it when I read about it also helping the bladder wall, but want to wait until I see the vet this week. I'm concerned about giving supplements to the kitten. I also ordered UT strength for my cats to help prevent future problems, but my vet reccomended against it. She said that if the cat is healthy it's best not to mess around with their ph. We are trying to figure out the cause of some inappropriate urination around here. I would call the vet and ask about supplements for Pippin as well as inquire about the ph. I've seen those result sheets and it is quite possible he was reading the wrong number even though the results showed acidic urine. Any way you must be sure. If the ph of 8 was correct and he thinks that's acidic, look for a new vet. If you are uncomfortable with the ingredients in the prescription food, first get Pippin well. In the meantime research alternative foods and supplements and discuss them with your vet. Just remember that vets are not pet nutrition specialists. I have chosen not to permanantly feed a prescription diet. Instead close monitoring, screening and the use of supplements and medication seems most reasonable and healthy for my cats.