Omega-3 vs cod liver oil and a question on the B complex.

[hersheys mom]

I am currently feeding Hershey Rose raw that I made (catinfo recipe). I add vitamin E and liver to the chicken, along with the taurine and salt, etc. However, my girls don't like the smelly salmon oil, so I am looking for a substitute. I am new to raw feeding, and have heard of vitamin overdosing your cat, especially vitamin A. I read the label on the cod liver oil and it has vitamin A in it, the Omega-3 oil does not.

I was reading a thread that had a recipe, or maybe it was a recipe linked to a thread, where it said do not use cod liver oil. I have just gotten cod liver oil for pets, my healthy food pantry swears by it. The company that makes it, Nordic Naturals, also makes Omega-3 Pet which has no odor which they will like. The salmon oil I used in my homemade made my cats run for their rooms! Stinky! The Omega-3 analysis is 1000 mg fish oil - crude fat 67%, Total Omega3 fatty acid 21%, EPA 10%, DHA 6 %.  The cod liver oil is EPA 8%, DHA 11%. Since the girls don't like the stinky fish oil, and there is no way I can afford the krill oil (but I'm still searching the net in case), which one would you recommend? I didn't look at the contents of the salmon oil before I returned it, I didn't have my magnifying glass with me (the writing is really small).

Also, I can't seem to find a B-Complex that has a doseage on it. It also contains vitamin C (300 mg) and 182 mg of various B vitamins per pill (mostly niacin 50 mg and calcium 52 ng). I am adding bone meal as my grinder won't do bones, so I would think they are getting enough calcium. Any suggestions? PLEASE???

Lei-Ann

 

[mschauer]

Definitely don't use cod liver oil:

http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-why-not-use-cod-liver-oil

My cats don't like salmon oil either. I use fish oil which has less of a fishy odor than salmon oil but it does still have some.  I doubt the oil in the Nordic Naturals is odorless. Usually when a company says a fish supplement is odorless they mean the intact capsule is odorless, not the oil inside the capsule. So a human swallowing the capsule wouldn't smell anything but since we extract the oil to use in our recipes we, and our cats, will smell the fishy odor. 'Fish' oils are made from smaller fish like anchovies and sardines which have less of an odor than salmon but aren't odorless.

I use Sprectum fish oil which is 60% Omega 3 with 32% EPA and 20% DHA. So you would have to use more of the Nordic Naturals product to get the same level of omega-3s.

What B-Complex product are you looking at that doesn't show a dosage?? You should be able to find one that only has B vitamins. BTW, Niacin, choline, folate, biotin and pantothenic acid (calcium D-pantothenate) are all B vitamins and likely will be included in most B Complex products. That's why they are called "B Complex", they contain various B vitamins.

I use Bluebonnet B Complex 100.

 

[Willowy]

I personally take cod liver oil fairly regularly for my skin, and Northerners can always use more vitamin D! I don't know about the amount of vitamin A, I'll have to look into that. But it's probably not a good idea to use it in a daily cat diet. Maybe sometimes but not every day (OK, I looked at the article on why not, andt that makes sense. I don't eat liver so I don't think I'll overdose, LOL. But best to avoid it for kitties). So here's the recipe so we know what we're talking about:

3 pounds of poultry thigh meat/bones/skin
or
2.25 lbs of whole carcass ground rabbit + 0.75 lbs of boneless chicken or turkey meat/skin/fat

1 cup water (or, preferably, more if your cat will eat it with more water)

2 eggs - use the yolk raw but lightly cook the white

5000 mg fish oil (a good source of essential fatty acids - note that this is increased from the original amount of 2,000 mg - if your cat does not like fish, it is ok to use only 2,000 mg) Do NOT use cod liver oil!

400 IU (268 mg) Vitamin E (powdered E in capsules is the easiest to use)

50 mg Vitamin B-complex (capsules or tablets)

2,000 mg taurine (use powdered - either in capsules or loose)

3/4 tsp Morton Lite salt with iodine when using chicken but not when using rabbit (contains potassium and sodium - make sure that it contains iodine - see below for further explanation.)

Liver - If using ground rabbit (which includes liver) from wholefoods4pets.com, do not add additional liver. If using chicken legs, thighs or a whole chicken carcass minus the organs, add 4 ounces of chicken livers per 3 lb of meat/bones/skin.

Boneless: if you are going to use 3 pounds of boneless meat and skin, then the amount of bone meal (NOW brand linked below) to use is 2 1/3 tablespoons. That is 2 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon....or....7 level teaspoons. (1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons)

So did you make it exactly according to the recipe? Any alterations or substitutions? How much fish oil did you add?

The vitamin B complex should have the amounts on it. If it says it has 50 mgs of niacin it should say the other amounts too. See if it looks similar to what she links to from her site.

 

[hersheys mom]

Definitely don't use cod liver oil:

http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-why-not-use-cod-liver-oil

I use Bluebonnet B Complex 100.

We have Nature Made, CVS, Savon, etc. Just says B complex, 130 capsules. Thought the cod liver oil was bad. Returning it. And the Nordic has no odor, I got some samples of it. But it sounds like the anchovies and sardines would be less smelly than the Salmon. Thank you for the percentages.

 

[hersheys mom]

I personally take cod liver oil fairly regularly for my skin, and Northerners can always use more vitamin D!

I don't know about the amount of vitamin A, I'll have to look into that. But it's probably not a good idea to use it in a daily cat diet. Maybe sometimes but not every day (OK, I looked at the article on why not, andt that makes sense. I don't eat liver so I don't think I'll overdose, LOL. But best to avoid it for kitties). So here's the recipe so we know what we're talking about:
So did you make it exactly according to the recipe? Any alterations or substitutions? How much fish oil did you add?
The vitamin B complex should have the amounts on it. If it says it has 50 mgs of niacin it should say the other amounts too. See if it looks similar to what she links to from her site.

Same recipe. Used 2000 Salmon fish oil. My girls aren't into fish. However, have noticed they are getting used to the batch I made with the Salmon, but it really grosses me out too. Ordered the Omega-3 for them as the sample had no odor, will increase it to match the recipe. Also am changing to bone meal as my grinder doesn't do bones. Ordered that too, so next batch will not have real bones in it. Cannot check out the link on the site - recently getting web page errors that crash the site. Computer appears to be virus free, so not sure what is going on as that is not the only site getting the nasty blue triangles. Eventually will get a better grinder when both girls are transistioned. My feral is completely natural and raw, my Tortie has yet to be won over. I know, patience is a virtue! Thank you for your help.

 

[carolina]

If you can afford Krill, that's the one I would recommend.... Instead of mixing it in advance, just puncture a gel cap and give it in the morning meal. Since it is a gorund meal, you can mix right in - it has pretty much no odor. I have a cat who is extremely finicky, and not even she had a problem with it - and I feed chucks and don't mix it at all.
My cats get 500mg a day, except for Bugsy, who is a giant - he gets 800mg; 500 in the am and 300 in the pm.
Here is the Krill I use as it is the same as the mega red, but much cheaper: NOW Foods NKO Krill Oil 500mg

 

[mschauer]

We have Nature Made, CVS, Savon, etc. Just says B complex, 130 capsules. 

Have you looked at the back label? Since B Complex supplements aren't just 1 single vitamin the front label frequently doesn't have a dosage. The back label should show the amounts, usually differing, of each vitamin in the capsules. 

Edit: I think I see what the problem is. Dr. Pierson's recipe calls for 50 mg B Complex. Look at the back label and if it says 50 mg of B1 (thiamin) that is what you want. 

 

[hersheys mom]

Have you looked at the back label? Since B Complex supplements aren't just 1 single vitamin the front label frequently doesn't have a dosage. The back label should show the amounts, usually differing, of each vitamin in the capsules. 

Edit: I think I see what the problem is. Dr. Pierson's recipe calls for 50 mg B Complex. Look at the back label and if it says 50 mg of B1 (thiamin) that is what you want. 

It says 15 mg B1.  50 mg niacin and 52 mg calcium are the highest listed. If if bring the B1 up to 45 mg, will the extra niacin and calcium hurt my babies?

 

[mschauer]

It says 15 mg B1.  50 mg niacin and 52 mg calcium are the highest listed. If if bring the B1 up to 45 mg, will the extra niacin and calcium hurt my babies?

*Exactly* what product is that (brand and name)? You need to find one without calcium.

 

[hersheys mom]

*Exactly* what product is that (brand and name)? You need to find one without calcium.

CVS Pharmacy B complex with vitamin C

 

[mschauer]

Have you found a B Complex that doesn't include vitamin C? I don't think that CVS product is what you want.

Have you tried a store that specializes in nutritional supplements?

 

[hersheys mom]

Have you found a B Complex that doesn't include vitamin C? I don't think that CVS product is what you want.

Have you tried a store that specializes in nutritional supplements?

Not yet, have been under the weather last few days. Will probably venture out today or tomorrow, but the stores I already looked at had vitamin C added. There is a health food store by me I will check.

Lei Ann

 

[korina]

My cats are almost months old and eat mostly Bravo/Rad/HT grinds. I supplement with hearts, necks, and freeze dried hearts and livers

To address Omega 3's I first bought human sardines in water,  then I realized that was risky(salt?), Tiki Cat made a sardine based canned food (in aspic, sucks to mix in with raw), figured this was a safer route and had supplements to fill in gaps.

I also got some weruva cans where sardine was first ingredient. (All in aspic, grr).  I add in a can of this maybe every 3 days.

I also got the top recommended cold pressed sardine oil gels, put them in food once or twice (annoying to cut open, possibly countered aroma of food).

Now back to my next HT order, I figured I would venture to the fish section I had been avoiding.

They have ground sardine, and whole sardine for a decent price.

https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_40&products_id=273

I know nothing about feeding raw fish, such as frozen sardine. 

After some quick google searches I see nothing.

Any ideas?

 

[mschauer]

To address Omega 3's I first bought human sardines in water,  then I realized that was risky(salt?), 

You can get canned sardines packed in water with no salt added. I use Brunswick brand. There is another brand but I can't think of the brand right now. 

 

[korina]

Quote:

You can get canned sardines packed in water with no salt added. I use Brunswick brand. There is another brand but I can't think of the brand right now. 

Yes, someone quipped about it, i guess the ingredients can't lie as it's FDA regulated.

My grocery store carries Crown Prince, for less then a buck, cheaper than amazon.

My question is why would you forgoe Tiki Cat Sardine, or Weruva outback grill? The human sardines might be cheaper and more meat, but the Tiki/Weruva have the minerals.

Also, still inquisitive about the frozen sardines, really wish we had a google search widget built into the site, I have looked but could not find any info.

I know a certain someone will have something to say ,  basically the use of raw fish products (fresh or freeze dried) as Omega 3 (and maybe as food enticer, or treat) is what I think we should explore.

 

[mschauer]

My question is why would you forgoe Tiki Cat Sardine, or Weruva outback grill? The human sardines might be cheaper and more meat, but the Tiki/Weruva have the minerals.

If you mean the Tiki/Weruva are nutritionally balanced, that is an advantage but in my case at least my recipes are nutritionally balanced using the canned sardines.

I don't know of any reason not to use raw frozen or fresh sardines. The canned are just more convenient.

 

[hersheys mom]

If you mean the Tiki/Weruva are nutritionally balanced, that is an advantage but in my case at least my recipes are nutritionally balanced using the canned sardines.

I don't know of any reason not to use raw frozen or fresh sardines. The canned are just more convenient.

I have only one reason not to use sardines. My girls hate them. I just love putting a sardine on a plate and listening to them hiss at it. And I can forget mixing one in with anything. The best experience I had was offering one to Hershey Rose - she sunk her teeth into my hand before the plate made it to the floor! You think I was trying to poison her. Ferals, you gotta love them.

 

[mschauer]

I have only one reason not to use sardines. My girls hate them. I just love putting a sardine on a plate and listening to them hiss at it. And I can forget mixing one in with anything. The best experience I had was offering one to Hershey Rose - she sunk her teeth into my hand before the plate made it to the floor! You think I was trying to poison her. Ferals, you gotta love them.

 

You probably shouldn't feed sardines in your house!

 

[korina]

I have only one reason not to use sardines. My girls hate them. I just love putting a sardine on a plate and listening to them hiss at it. And I can forget mixing one in with anything. The best experience I had was offering one to Hershey Rose - she sunk her teeth into my hand before the plate made it to the floor! You think I was trying to poison her. Ferals, you gotta love them.

Let me get this right, your cats attack you when you try to put food down they don't like?

Or do they get a wild reaction?

For example with my two kittens, one goes to work on her chicken neck or drum stick.  The other guy wants to eat at it, but she growls while she chews, growls and hisses if he gets close, and even swiped at him.

After she is done her meal, she is in love with him.

As to Sardine, I will adopt an all 3 approach, human can, cat can, and raw.

I just wonder if cats benefit more from fish that is raw, cooked and/or salmon oil (only omega benefit).

Does raw have more enzymes, really anything, does it have more smell.  (I do use as enticer for new raw grinds, trying to get these kittens adusted to as many proteins from HT as possible)

I bring up Salmon oil as I think it can mitigate the risks associated with fish meat, and cat can get Omega 3 dose every day, instead of 1-3 times a week as many members state.

Obviously a topic for another thread, and one for Laurie to research for us

 

[Willowy]

I got a bag of sardines from Hare Today. I haven't thawed them yet but they look very similar to the canned kind, just in bag not a can. . .:tongue2:. I also found pouches of sardines without salt at--of all places--Menards.