Oh my gosh - is this common!?!?

[xomycatsxo]

Still up... barely..

Just to clear it up .. I am not saying I would "prefer" any of those things. This post was to understand why something so tragic like aborting kittens is happening (or even common, is how it started).

We all know the horrible things that can happen to cats, it's why all my 8 are strictly indoors and why I'm such an advocate for indoors! No one 'prefers' for those things to happen... we (me anyway) needed to make sense of it because like we all keep saying - it's a very tragic reality and difficult to swallow at first, until you understand the logic behind it.

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable w/ cats - but rescue, I don't know much at all... well, at least since I've started doing rescue work- I now know that I pretty much knew nothing! (Can you tell I'm tired)

Heading to bed.. apologize if I didn't make sense but wanted to clarify that not many on this board would 'prefer' those horrible things to happen to anyone or anything, never mind a cat.

Originally Posted by CyberKitten

This practice is common as well it should be. Would you prefer a mama cat have kittens who die a slow death of starvation and cruelty on the street, eaten alive by some larger mammal, picked up someone who uses them as snake food, hit by a car and left to die, freeezes to death as it gets colder, attacked by people who hate cats (and there are too many ailophobes out there!) or something worse. Most feral cats brought to pounds - kittens included - are immediately euthenized. If the kittens are never born, they never suffer. Sadly, there are something like 1 person for every 10 cats in North America and of course not every family wants a cat. That is the sad reality and spaying mama while she is pregnant is a Godsend to her and the yet developed fetuses.

 

[xomycatsxo]

This is a very honest question- something I've been wondering.

What are the chances of kittens 'acting' feral if taken from their mom at 8 wks old and adopted out?

I know they say the chances are much greater if you can get kittens by 10-12 wks old.

If a pregnant cat is about to deliver any minute- will the spay still be performed? Is there any cut off whatsoever?? I may have already asked this/or may have already been answered, but I just can not remember right now.

I'm off to bed.. hehe, I keep saying that - I said that 2 hours ago and it's 3 now..

Goodnight! Thanks for the post.

Originally Posted by hissy

Any pregnant stray that shows up here, is trapped, and taken to the vet to be spayed. It is a sad reality but there are no homes for feral and stray kittens because people usually want a nice, wonderful lap kitty to sit on them while they watch television. Having a spitting hissing clawing kitten puts a lot of people off. The females are spayed, the males neutered and they are re-released on our land. My one feral cat turns 11 years old soon and he has only been inside 3 times in his lifetime. He hates confinement and will fight you tooth and nail if you try. He is a total love outside though.

 

[hissy]

it depends on the vet doing the spay, but most will abort the kittens. Do they like it, no, but they understand it is a necessary thing to do. The lesser of two evils.

When you work with feral cats they don't all want to be indoors. Some will never adapt no matter what. You will find your windows ripped open, your door off the hinge, wallpaper shredded, holes chewed in walls. Some cats won't stay indoors.

The kittens can be socialized at any age. It just takes time- and most people do not want to invest the time it takes to reach them. I have four upstairs right now, I have had just under two weeks- One is coming around, I hope to adopt her out tomorrow morning- the other three are still not trusting and will take work, and patience and love. They are 7 months old, found in an old abandoned campground.

 

[tnr1]

This was posted recently on Best Friends Forum and I thought it was worth sharing:

Question from Merry:
What do you think about spaying pregnant cats, especially those who are in the latter stages of their pregnancy?


Response from Celeste Crimi:
Eek--I'm scared to answer this one! I wish I could just hide behind Faith Maloney of Best Friends' excellent response when she was a forum guest during the Ethical Dilemmas week (see her post at http://www.bestfriends.com/archives/...dilemmas.html).

But, it's an important topic so I'll chime in, even though I can only speak to my own feelings and what I have witnessed both in the animal welfare and veterinary arenas.

My introduction to animal rescue was short-term fostering of young, attractive, brightly colored animals, for a foster network which pulled animals from a county shelter. Another volunteer pulled the animals, so all I ever saw was an adorable kitten/cat delivered to my house. At an adoption outreach event, one of my fellow volunteers mentioned that she had used to work for a feral cat Trap, Neuter, Return (TNR) organization, but she couldn't take it that they spayed pregnant females. Since the thought of the kittens not being born saddened me, even though they didn't know pain or suffering during the procedure, her perspective made sense to me.

Then I moved and started volunteering at an actual shelter on adoption days, and fostering one adult, special needs, often plain-looking cat at a time. And at adoption events I started realizing that during kitten season it was much more difficult to get people to even look at my wonderful, smart, loving, unique foster cat with a history of love and loss. Eighty percent of the adoptions at this particular shelter were kittens. Females were not spayed if they were pregnant, so there were always lots and lots of kittens to choose from.

I got to the point where every time I saw a cute, little kitten face, I'd visualize the sad eyes of a homeless adult cat who would now be put to sleep so that the baby could get the available home, instead. There are a finite number of stellar adopters out there. No amount of marketing is going to change that, for now. Even for the kittens there were too many to go around--at the end of the summer there'd be cages full of gangly, adolescent 'leftover' kittens--all black and brown. The ones who hadn't gotten picked. Sure, we could have launched a 'Black is Beautiful' campaign--but then the orange, calico and Siamese colorings would be left! My opinion began to turn around a bit. I thought maybe I should look into this further before forming an opinion.

Below is what I learned in the subsequent years, and the conclusions I reached as a result.

We often hear of cats having to bear young because a vet told the clients she was 'too far along to spay.'

I also know and volunteer with many surgeons who will spay at any stage of pregnancy. Any stage includes up to delivery date.

It seems that spaying pregnant females elicits the same response as does prepubescent spay/neuter from certain veterinarians, who state arbitrary dates about whom they'll consider surgical candidates. I've heard 2 months, 3 months, 4 months, 5 months, 6 months, 7 months and even 8 months as the minimum, safe age for spaying. I've also heard, "after she's gone through her first estrus/heat"--yes, from licensed veterinarians!

Similarly, it would seem that some veterinarians are making up their own rules about who they'll feel comfortable spaying. I've heard if she's detectably pregnant, if she's through her first term (cats are pregnant for 8-9 weeks, which is divided into 2 terms, and they generally start showing at the beginning of the 2nd term, at 4-5 weeks), if she's a week or two away from delivery, if she's 'about to pop,' etc.

However, many vets have extensive experience relieving females, no matter how far along they are, of the burden of bearing and nursing litters whom they're almost always destined to be separated from, usually never to see their babies again. Far from appearing lost or grieving, most would-have-been mothers bear an air of palpable relief upon awakening from spay surgery. At least it's looked that way to me.

Furthermore, when we deal with cats who come from a long line of mal-nourished, over-taxed parents and grandparents, it becomes almost commonplace to have mother/kittens not make it after the birth. I can't tell you how many times I've heard reports from recipients such as, "She had 5 kittens, but 2 of them died..." or, "We don't know what happened to the mama, we found her dead one morning about 2 weeks after the kittens were born..." My anecdotal observation is the possibility for problems goes up the more litters a particular cat has.

Make no mistake; I'm not intimating that a late-term spay is just as easy as for an early-term or non-pregnant female. She loses more fluid and a greater portion of her total body mass (administering subcutaneous fluids post-op can offset this phenomenon). Her more venous uterus is more likely to have a vein that continues to leak a bit, causing post-op bruising or bleeding. The incision may be about an inch longer than usual. She may be under general anesthesia slightly longer, especially with a surgeon unused to the procedure. She may require more anesthetic, due to hormonal and metabolic changes in a pregnant female, and she'll typically wake up from anesthesia more quickly.

The alternative, of course, is that the mother bears the young, enduring probable growth stunting as she gives all her nutrients to nurse her young--it's expected for a lactating feline to lose 25% of her body weight while her kittens outgrow her in combined weight. Mastitis (infected teats) is always a possibility, along with the usual birthing complications, such as partial births, retained placentas, post-partum infection, etc. Not to mention the overpopulation statistics and realities we're all too familiar with. Bottom line: if more babies are born, an equal number of adult shelter animals will be put down as the newborns elbow out the 'second hand' adoptables in competition for available homes. That's a pretty high 'complication rate,' much higher than for late-term spays!

Spaying females at any stage of pregnancy is often considered a kindness to the mother, since birth and lactation are also high-risk undertakings. After much consideration, I have taken a Mothers First stance on this issue. I look forward to the day when there will be homes a-plenty and puppies and kittens a treasured rarity, which ties into POPPA's motto: "People working together can make pets precious again!"

 

[kumbulu]

I'm going to add my 2c here. I have been a foster carer for almost 200 kittens - orphaned, abandoned, feral and even premature kittens. I love what I do but I also realise that there are many, many more kittens out there who aren't so lucky. I would much rather that there was not even a need for people who do what I do. I am all for spaying a pregnant female cat, no matter how old the kittens are. It's not as if there's a shortage of kittens - far from it. Some of the kittens have come to me to be socialized, as they were born of a feral mumcat. It is very, very hard to find a home for a semi or formerly feral kitten when there are thousands of cute, cheap kittens in the petshops. Others were rejected by their mumcats - cats who were too young, too weak or too ill to be able to care for their kittens or are from cases where mumcat has died either while giving birth or nursing the kittens. Still others were taken from their mumcat only days after birth and left in a cardboard box somewhere. Pregnancy and birth can actually be fatal for some cats, especially if they're stray or feral. I have seen the result of cat pregnancies being completed and it sometimes results in sick, debilitated, premature or deformed kittens. It can be heartbreaking at times.

 

[xomycatsxo]

Thank you!

Here's my question.. and it may be stupid but..

If I am taking these cats in as fosters.. how do I socialize them when I basically have to keep them in the cage because I can't have them interacting w/ my cats. That's the one biggest concern I have- taking cats in that aren't healthy and possibly getting my cats sick.

Any suggestions?

Originally Posted by hissy

it depends on the vet doing the spay, but most will abort the kittens. Do they like it, no, but they understand it is a necessary thing to do. The lesser of two evils.

When you work with feral cats they don't all want to be indoors. Some will never adapt no matter what. You will find your windows ripped open, your door off the hinge, wallpaper shredded, holes chewed in walls. Some cats won't stay indoors.

The kittens can be socialized at any age. It just takes time- and most people do not want to invest the time it takes to reach them. I have four upstairs right now, I have had just under two weeks- One is coming around, I hope to adopt her out tomorrow morning- the other three are still not trusting and will take work, and patience and love. They are 7 months old, found in an old abandoned campground.

 

[xomycatsxo]

Thank you for sharing that.

Originally Posted by TNR1

This was posted recently on Best Friends Forum and I thought it was worth sharing:

Question from Merry:
What do you think about spaying pregnant cats, especially those who are in the latter stages of their pregnancy?


Response from Celeste Crimi:
Eek--I'm scared to answer this one! I wish I could just hide behind Faith Maloney of Best Friends' excellent response when she was a forum guest during the Ethical Dilemmas week (see her post at http://www.bestfriends.com/archives/...dilemmas.html).

But, it's an important topic so I'll chime in, even though I can only speak to my own feelings and what I have witnessed both in the animal welfare and veterinary arenas.

My introduction to animal rescue was short-term fostering of young, attractive, brightly colored animals, for a foster network which pulled animals from a county shelter. Another volunteer pulled the animals, so all I ever saw was an adorable kitten/cat delivered to my house. At an adoption outreach event, one of my fellow volunteers mentioned that she had used to work for a feral cat Trap, Neuter, Return (TNR) organization, but she couldn't take it that they spayed pregnant females. Since the thought of the kittens not being born saddened me, even though they didn't know pain or suffering during the procedure, her perspective made sense to me.

Then I moved and started volunteering at an actual shelter on adoption days, and fostering one adult, special needs, often plain-looking cat at a time. And at adoption events I started realizing that during kitten season it was much more difficult to get people to even look at my wonderful, smart, loving, unique foster cat with a history of love and loss. Eighty percent of the adoptions at this particular shelter were kittens. Females were not spayed if they were pregnant, so there were always lots and lots of kittens to choose from.

I got to the point where every time I saw a cute, little kitten face, I'd visualize the sad eyes of a homeless adult cat who would now be put to sleep so that the baby could get the available home, instead. There are a finite number of stellar adopters out there. No amount of marketing is going to change that, for now. Even for the kittens there were too many to go around--at the end of the summer there'd be cages full of gangly, adolescent 'leftover' kittens--all black and brown. The ones who hadn't gotten picked. Sure, we could have launched a 'Black is Beautiful' campaign--but then the orange, calico and Siamese colorings would be left! My opinion began to turn around a bit. I thought maybe I should look into this further before forming an opinion.

Below is what I learned in the subsequent years, and the conclusions I reached as a result.

We often hear of cats having to bear young because a vet told the clients she was 'too far along to spay.'

I also know and volunteer with many surgeons who will spay at any stage of pregnancy. Any stage includes up to delivery date.

It seems that spaying pregnant females elicits the same response as does prepubescent spay/neuter from certain veterinarians, who state arbitrary dates about whom they'll consider surgical candidates. I've heard 2 months, 3 months, 4 months, 5 months, 6 months, 7 months and even 8 months as the minimum, safe age for spaying. I've also heard, "after she's gone through her first estrus/heat"--yes, from licensed veterinarians!

Similarly, it would seem that some veterinarians are making up their own rules about who they'll feel comfortable spaying. I've heard if she's detectably pregnant, if she's through her first term (cats are pregnant for 8-9 weeks, which is divided into 2 terms, and they generally start showing at the beginning of the 2nd term, at 4-5 weeks), if she's a week or two away from delivery, if she's 'about to pop,' etc.

However, many vets have extensive experience relieving females, no matter how far along they are, of the burden of bearing and nursing litters whom they're almost always destined to be separated from, usually never to see their babies again. Far from appearing lost or grieving, most would-have-been mothers bear an air of palpable relief upon awakening from spay surgery. At least it's looked that way to me.

Furthermore, when we deal with cats who come from a long line of mal-nourished, over-taxed parents and grandparents, it becomes almost commonplace to have mother/kittens not make it after the birth. I can't tell you how many times I've heard reports from recipients such as, "She had 5 kittens, but 2 of them died..." or, "We don't know what happened to the mama, we found her dead one morning about 2 weeks after the kittens were born..." My anecdotal observation is the possibility for problems goes up the more litters a particular cat has.

Make no mistake; I'm not intimating that a late-term spay is just as easy as for an early-term or non-pregnant female. She loses more fluid and a greater portion of her total body mass (administering subcutaneous fluids post-op can offset this phenomenon). Her more venous uterus is more likely to have a vein that continues to leak a bit, causing post-op bruising or bleeding. The incision may be about an inch longer than usual. She may be under general anesthesia slightly longer, especially with a surgeon unused to the procedure. She may require more anesthetic, due to hormonal and metabolic changes in a pregnant female, and she'll typically wake up from anesthesia more quickly.

The alternative, of course, is that the mother bears the young, enduring probable growth stunting as she gives all her nutrients to nurse her young--it's expected for a lactating feline to lose 25% of her body weight while her kittens outgrow her in combined weight. Mastitis (infected teats) is always a possibility, along with the usual birthing complications, such as partial births, retained placentas, post-partum infection, etc. Not to mention the overpopulation statistics and realities we're all too familiar with. Bottom line: if more babies are born, an equal number of adult shelter animals will be put down as the newborns elbow out the 'second hand' adoptables in competition for available homes. That's a pretty high 'complication rate,' much higher than for late-term spays!

Spaying females at any stage of pregnancy is often considered a kindness to the mother, since birth and lactation are also high-risk undertakings. After much consideration, I have taken a Mothers First stance on this issue. I look forward to the day when there will be homes a-plenty and puppies and kittens a treasured rarity, which ties into POPPA's motto: "People working together can make pets precious again!"

 

[kumbulu]

Originally Posted by xomycatsxo

Thank you!

Here's my question.. and it may be stupid but..

If I am taking these cats in as fosters.. how do I socialize them when I basically have to keep them in the cage because I can't have them interacting w/ my cats. That's the one biggest concern I have- taking cats in that aren't healthy and possibly getting my cats sick.

Any suggestions?

There are no stupid questions here, remember that!

If you were to foster cats, you would most likely need a whole room that they can call their own. You're right to be concerned about illness. The best way to deal with this is to wash your hands and forearms throrughly after interacting with the fosters and many carers keep a separate set of clothes, so they are not transferring bugs to or from their own cats on the clothes.

 

[xomycatsxo]

Thank you!

What do I do if I don't have a sep. room for them?

Hmm.. I've been thinking of putting my dining room table in my living room (I started a thread that had pics of a new floor I put in- so you can get an idea of how huge the LR is) and closing the dining room off and making a bedroom or something out of it. We had ideas for that room, but maybe, for now - we could put a door on the two entries and put the cats in there? Where I would be putting the cages is right near the wood stove as well.. so that may get a little warm.

However, if I don't have a room anytime soon - what would you suggest? I was thinking of gathering all of my cats in my bedroom upstairs and bringing the fosters out to be socialized?

Originally Posted by Kumbulu

There are no stupid questions here, remember that!

If you were to foster cats, you would most likely need a whole room that they can call their own. You're right to be concerned about illness. The best way to deal with this is to wash your hands and forearms throrughly after interacting with the fosters and many carers keep a separate set of clothes, so they are not transferring bugs to or from their own cats on the clothes.

 

[kumbulu]

You could perhaps build or buy a large cage but you would need to find a way to block access to the cage by your cats as even just sniffing each other is enough to transfer bugs.

 

[xomycatsxo]

Hmm.. okay. Thank you!

Originally Posted by Kumbulu

You could perhaps build or buy a large cage but you would need to find a way to block access to the cage by your cats as even just sniffing each other is enough to transfer bugs.