Need Advice on cat food: needs to gain a little weight

[thephcatlady]

I took Marble (1-year-old domestic shorthair) to the vet for very noticeable weight loss and the vet suggested a diet change might make him gain it back. He's 3.9 kg and the vet said that's an OK weight for him, but he can benefit by gaining a little more. He used to be significantly fatter, and I'm all for the weight gain.

I've been switching up food because I'm just not happy with the current market trend in wet cat food here. The vet said "ANY wet food" but like with people, health care providers expect people to make smart choices too. I've been to 4 super stocked food suppliers and they don't have much on healthy cat food, since dogs are a more popular breed to feed commercial pet food to and cats are regarded as lucky if they even get table scraps.

It's mostly fish stuff. The popular food content being tuna, sardine, and mackerel. I believe in fish being stuff that's chock-full-'o mercury, and I think it's horrible that the cat food considered "top quality" here is basically poison cos they're full of fish. In my opinion the fact that tuna and most fish may have indecent amounts of mercury in them should be on cat food labels that contain fish. But these are the cards me and my boys are dealt with. Vet zapped our money for the whole month away, Marble needs better food, and the market sucks.

I don't feed them any if I can help it, but I'm running out of choices. My budget is extremely low right now because the vets cost me an arm and a leg just for blood tests. I barely have funds for myself as is but as much as possible, I don't want my babies to suffer for that. Plus the stress those two vet visits caused Marble is likely to have consequences, maybe even more weight loss than we originally started with, even. So a better diet than just dry food is important right now.

So for the mean time I want to give them stuff they can benefit from that's reasonably priced enough. There's this packet of Smartheart sardine with chicken and rice, I can afford it on a weekly basis until my funds recover. I'm thinking this is a lesser evil, because I read the packet and there aren't any by-products, and the only grain is rice while the only fish is sardine. I'm thinking maybe the vitamins and minerals part is just some multivitamin they dumped in the vat when they were making this. This is what the rest of the packet says. 

                                      

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• thephcatlady
• Mar 14, 2013

Is this okay? Should I go with whiska's kitten food instead? They eat that stuff too. Marble isn't a big fan of it but he still eats it. They get it for dinner cos he sleeps straight until midnight after that and I was thinking maybe he'd gain weight that way, like how humans gain more weight when they don't burn their dinner off or something? I read somewhere that switching up cat food leads to weight loss so I can't keep switching, but I don't know the basis nor do I have legitimate reference for that. Helpful input will be very appreciated.

 

[catspaw66]

If I have converted correctly, the packet recommends giving a 5 pound cat almost a pound of that food a day.  That seems a little high to me.

9 pounds (3.9 kg.) seems to be just about the right weight for Marble.  How much did he weigh before losing weight?

This one is going to have to be answered by some with more experience calculating weight/calorie/nutrient ratios than me.

 

[thephcatlady]

Wow a pound of the stuff! He hasn't even finished the packet I split between him and Pebble, and he's still on dry food cos I don't want the diet transition to shock their tummies. The packet seems so dehydrated of nutrients then...

I actually don't know his weight, I just judged by how heavy he was when I pick him up. And I feel his ribs more now than before. I wouldn't notice if it wasn't considerable. He seems fine otherwise except he's less affectionate, and I was thinking maybe a little extra "bulk" would support him through a neutering. Surgery that requires anesthesia's bound to be stressful for him. 

 

[vball91]

Is this labeled as a complete food? I don't see any taurine listed unless that's included in vitamins and minerals. Can you contact the manufacturer to make sure? I would prefer to ensure that taurine is included with all cooked meals. I would be curious as to what gelling agents they are using as well.

In terms of fish, sardine and mackerel are much better choices than big fish like tuna as they don't have the time to build up mercury.

 

[peaches08]

Would any local butchers have scraps? I'm not suggesting scraps as a total dietary intake, but additional meat and organs like heart would help boost your kitties' total dietary intake.

 

[ritz]

I checked the website for Smartheart and it states it has taurine added.  Maybe the label has been changed.

Guaranteed analysis lists fat as 2%, which seems to me a little low.  Maybe add some cooked chicken or beef with some of the skin/fat left on (under no circumstances should you feed cooked BONE.)

Do you know why your cat lost weight?  Nine pounds sounds like a good weight for a cat.

I feed raw, so hopefully someone can chime in about calories in canned food.

 

[thephcatlady]

Is this labeled as a complete food? I don't see any taurine listed unless that's included in vitamins and minerals. Can you contact the manufacturer to make sure? I would prefer to ensure that taurine is included with all cooked meals. I would be curious as to what gelling agents they are using as well.

In terms of fish, sardine and mackerel are much better choices than big fish like tuna as they don't have the time to build up mercury.

It's labeled "balanced nutrition" on the front. I was thinking the same thing, too! Taurine and Arginine are very important for cats, and their bodies don't produce it. What really drew me to buy a packet of this is how little the ingredients list is compared to the extremely long list of impossible to spell ingredients. And the mercury content of sardines and mackerel being low/none was what I wanted to hear. Thank you so much, I'll choose cat food with those fish next time when choices are limited. 

Would any local butchers have scraps? I'm not suggesting scraps as a total dietary intake, but additional meat and organs like heart would help boost your kitties' total dietary intake.

There's a market in front of our uni! I'll ask/beg for scraps. Although I don't know about hearts being scraps, because they're sold and eaten here on skewers and in stew. I'm sorry if that doesn't sound appetizing.

Are there any organs to watch out for/prefer?

Also, this is gonna sound silly, but I once watched on the Discovery Channel that the closer the organs are to the head, the more amino acids there are in it so should I aim high and look for stuff like... brain? ...esophagus? Pig's eyeball? I'm not too bright with the butcher things.  

I really, really appreciate this. Thank you and thank you in advance for the organs suggestion.

I checked the website for Smartheart and it states it has taurine added.  Maybe the label has been changed.

Guaranteed analysis  lists fat as 2%, which seems to me a little low.  Maybe add some cooked chicken or beef with some of the skin/fat left on (under no circumstances should you feed cooked BONE.)

Do you know why your cat lost weight?  Nine pounds sounds like a good weight for a cat.

I feed raw, so hopefully someone can chime in about calories in canned food.

If peaches08's suggestion of scraps is a success tomorrow, I'll be feeding them raw more often. I know scraps like intestines are sold super cheap by the pound, although I offered them some grilled and they didn't like it. I'll buy a bit then clean it and see if they prefer it raw for added fat like peaches08 suggested. I read somewhere that liver is a no no? Is it? I would think it's full of iron so it's good stuff, but the same won't apply to cats of course, and the (rip-off) vet already sold me this tube of gel vitamins that has 8.8 mg of iron per 100 grams. She said half a teaspoon a day is good enough, it has 17, 635 iu of Vitamin A and I'm wary of toxicity so I don't want to give more than the vet suggested just for added iron. Have you had experience giving liver? What about bacteria in the raw meat? Should I semi-cook it if I suspect the organs are full of bacteria? The markets here aren't known for internationally acclaimed cleanliness. Please take note I only have a small amount of freezer space, and I can fit about maybe 2 kilos of collected meat at a time.

I'm sorry, I don't know why he lost weight. Not even the vet knows, and said that he's a relatively healthy cat. He's not much for exercise, his food intake is about the same, his CBC came back unremarkable and the trip to the vet pretty much summed up ear mites. I tried getting to the bottom of his weight loss by going to 2 vets. The 1st one diagnosed him with Feline Leukemia Virus and the shock just sent me to tears and out looking for a definitive test and a 2nd opinion. His tests for FeLV and FIV at the second vet's came back negative and even showed me the test kit that said negative. The 2nd vet was the one who told me that she thinks he's a pretty healthy cat. I'm about to give in and chalk it up to puberty or hormones, maybe stress over heaven knows what cos nothing has changed in the house and their diet remained unchanged until the vet said he could gain a bit before vaccines/neutering for my peace of mind, cos he may possibly lose more weight with the stress of a surgical procedure/the vax. It was also the 2nd vet who suggested a change in diet might help him because he's turning 1 year old and his body needs are changing. She considered other stuff but she said it's unlikely for Marble cos he's a young cat that fusses real hard for blood tests.

I'm not looking to get a fat, obese cat. I know that's kinda cute in a Garfield way, but I've seen what a kidney looks like in an obese cat and I don't want that to happen to Marble or Pebble. I'm going for the healthy, "max moisture in meat" stuff for a healthy, controlled weight gain. I was afraid he'd keep losing weight if I don't change something up for the healthier, especially since the doctor didn't find anything, so I'm just looking for a diet that would make him gain instead of lose. Ideal would be if he just stays the healthy 9 lbs. he is and stops getting lighter by the time 14 days rolls in and it's follow up checkup time. Then there's high probability that it really is just diet.

I'm very thankful to you all for the input. I don't get much from here and another vet's just going to stress Marble out. I decided to give it a rest until checkup time, cos he might lose a pound or something from vet stress. I can't find cookies but here there's rubies for all you kind souls helping Marble out. 

 

 

 

 

 

[peaches08]

Check out the raw feeding forum resources thread. I don't have experience with frankenprey but many others do. For now you can feed up to 15% of the diet unbalanced. For cheap/free, I'd try anything! Organs, meat, whatever. Try to geyt some fat (skin?). Just rinse it very well before feeding. That should take care of any bacterial concerns.

 

[vball91]

I think the ingredient list looks limited because they've combined the vitamins & minerals instead of listing them separately. However, the fact that sardines, water and chicken are the first 3 ingredients is mostly good. Just be aware that with these pouches, you are paying a lot for a high water content. If you can find canned with good protein sources and add your own water to it, you are getting more for your money as a general rule.

You can feed most animal parts if your cats will eat them, but since you're in the Phillipines, I would be a bit concerned about the quality of meat and safe handling of meats, but I really don't know.

You can feed liver, but if you're already feeding this supplement from your vet with Vit. A, you need to make sure you don't come close to the limit of Vit. A toxicity. I can't remember what that number is but I will look it up for you. In franenprey feeding, liver is 5% of the diet, along with 5% another secreting organ like kidney or pancreas, about 10% bone, and then the rest muscle meat. This is all raw. If you're going to cook it, you will need to supplement. Not sure what you have available for that there. As peaches08 said, as long as you're feeding less than 15% home cooked or raw, you don't need to worry about balancing it or supplementing it.

 

[vball91]

Never mind about the Vit A toxicity - safe upper limit is 750,000 IU/kg per AAFCO and 333,000 IU/kg per NRC, so even with your vet vitamins, you're ok to feed liver occasionally. I am curious about those vet vitamins. Is it something that could be used to supplement homecooked or raw? Might be worth asking the vet. Of course if there's no taurine, then no. Is taurine something you could source there? It sounds like home prepared would be cheaper than quality cat foods for you.

 

[thephcatlady]

Check out the raw feeding forum resources thread. I don't have experience with frankenprey but many others do. For now you can feed up to 15% of the diet unbalanced. For cheap/free, I'd try anything! Organs, meat, whatever. Try to geyt some fat (skin?). Just rinse it very well before feeding. That should take care of any bacterial concerns.

Hahaha "Frankenprey" I like that! Hopefully they'll like it. They do love chicken and turkey, they're just not big fans of fish. Weird cats. I'll get some soon. Thank you so much for the advice. I'll look in the raw feeding forum in a bit.

I think the ingredient list looks limited because they've combined the vitamins & minerals instead of listing them separately. However, the fact that sardines, water and chicken are the first 3 ingredients is mostly good. Just be aware that with these pouches, you are paying a lot for a high water content. If you can find canned with good protein sources and add your own water to it, you are getting more for your money as a general rule.

You can feed most animal parts if your cats will eat them, but since you're in the Phillipines, I would be a bit concerned about the quality of meat and safe handling of meats, but I really don't know.

You can feed liver, but if you're already feeding this supplement from your vet with Vit. A, you need to make sure you don't come close to the limit of Vit. A toxicity. I can't remember what that number is but I will look it up for you. In franenprey feeding, liver is 5% of the diet, along with 5% another secreting organ like kidney or pancreas, about 10% bone, and then the rest muscle meat. This is all raw. If you're going to cook it, you will need to supplement. Not sure what you have available for that there. As peaches08 said, as long as you're feeding less than 15% home cooked or raw, you don't need to worry about balancing it or supplementing it.

I was reading some of the ingredients from the back of food packet's last time we were at the vet's, and I saw stuff like "cornmeal," "liver by-product," "beef by-product," "wheat" and something like wheat hash or whatever, just a ton of stuff that makes it sound like it's more appropriate for a cow or Hannibal Lecter's pigs on a diet. I didn't see it in Smartheart and that's what I meant.

Thank you so much for the input, it does seem high on just water but pouches are half the price of cans over here and I'm making do with that and peaches08's franken-kitty meals suggestion until my wallet gains more weight. Vets are debilitating. 

Most animal parts, got it. I'm concerned with the quality of meat and safe handling, too. We eat stuff from the market, but they're cooked. Its being raw for the cats makes a lot of difference with the bacteria content.

"Secreting organs" is a language I understand! I'm gonna have to shell out a bit for that because "scraps" for butchers here means stuff like the esophagus if they separate it, tongue bits, leftover ear bits, no animal part goes to waste here. That's okay if it's just 15% of the diet. Adds bulk to the plate and the boys would still get full but with healthy stuff. Not with cowfeed.

Never mind about the Vit A toxicity - safe upper limit is 750,000 IU/kg per AAFCO and 333,000 IU/kg per NRC, so even with your vet vitamins, you're ok to feed liver occasionally. I am curious about those vet vitamins. Is it something that could be used to supplement homecooked or raw? Might be worth asking the vet. Of course if there's no taurine, then no. Is taurine something you could source there? It sounds like home prepared would be cheaper than quality cat foods for you.

That's good to know, I read an article about how toxicity and too much of this and that can cause some scary stuff, like abnormal bone growth for calcium or blindness for Vitamin A that will not manifest until the cat gets a little older. I read a vet's critical care diet site just for more info on raw feeding, plus some recipes, and they all seem so tedious that I might overdose.

I'm used to administering precise doses and giving just as much as I know (or the doctor knows) to be beneficial. The vet said "any" wet food so I didn't get much on the way of dietary dosages. I'm thankful for the suggestions and I'll be giving them a collective of advice from the raw food section until I can afford the turkey again. 

To satisfy your curiosity of the vet vitamins, it's called Virbac Animal Health Nutri-plus gel. I read links aren't allowed here, and the site for the vitamins leads to the distributor's site so a google search would show you what it looks like. It's in a white box with blue and yellow lines. Vet said that I can mix the vitamins with the food. The nutritional content of the stuff is below. Thank you guys, very much, for all the input. I feel more comfortable feeding the boys something home made now. 

• composition per 100 grams:

• Vitamin A = 17 635 iu

• Vitamin D .= 882 iu

• Vitamin E = 106 iu

• Thiamine HCl (B1) = 35.25 mg

• Riboflavin (B2) = 3.5 mg

• Pyridoxine HCL (B6) = 17.6 mg

• Cyanocobalamin (B12) = 35.25 mcg

• Nicotinamide = 35.25 mg

• Calcium Pantothenate = 35.25 mg

• Folic Acid = 3.5 mg

• Iron = 8.8 mg

• Iodine = 8.8 mg

• Manganese = 17.65 mg

• Magnesium = 7.00 mg

• Net weight = 120.5 g

• Calorific Value per 100 g 590 Kcal as 141 KJ

• Fats = not less than 35%

• Crude Protein = not less than 1.5%

• Carbohydrates = Not less than 49%

• Fiber = 2.2% ± 1%

• Minerals = 1.3% ± 0.5%

 

[ritz]

Virbac Animal Health Nutri-plus gel is some type of supplemental feeding; it has calories in it from the fat and carbohydrates.

Math and conversion not being my strong point, I'm not sure that Kcal : KJ means, but I *think* this food has 141 calories per 100 grams or roughly 3 oz.  Which is why your vet suggested giving Marble only 1/2 teaspoon a day. It is not 'just' a vitamin.

I'm envious that you can get a wide variety of organ meats; here in the US we're limited to mainly kidney and liver.  Depending on the quality of the water you have, I would NOT rinse the food you get from the market.  Cat's digestive systems can handle bacteria a lot better than humans.  It's rare cats get sick from bad meat; they can smell spoilage a mile away. 

I'd give your cat some 'table' scraps (you know which markets have reputable, safe reputations) and green tripe or sweetbreads, if possible.

By the way:  heart from any animal contains a lot of taurine, so if you're worried about the amount of taurine your cat is getting, try getting some of that meat.  Heart is considered a muscle meat, not protein, for 'frakenprey' diets.  (I feed raw.)

Finally:  is your cat neutered?  If not, that in and of itself could cause him to be burning extra calories.  Hormones and all.  (I co-fostered a female semi feral cat who cycled in and out of heat every few days; she lost a lot of weight in a short period of time.  We couldn't get her into get spayed for about three weeks.)

 

[thephcatlady]

Just an update on Marble:

He's doing really well on packet wet food and refuses to eat much more than a few bites of dried kibble now. I just learned that there's wet food, ready made from scraps in the market but I strongly suggested we make our own by buying 1/4 kilo of this and that so I know what's in their food. We're headed out to buy half a pound of collective raw stuff.  

 He's jumping around more and he's back to his cuddly self when I switched him to wet food so I'm really crossing my fingers for this raw diet transition.

We weighed Marble again and he stayed at 8.9 lbs. I suppose it really is his hormones. He's doing really well and he's lined up for neutering from my vet friend who agreed to do it for free! He's done it a ton of times before and his past clients were happy, so Marble and Pebble should be alright with him.

Thank you so much for all the suggestions and the input! I'm very happy my Marble's back. You're all good people for staying with me and Marble for this. 

 

[vball91]

That's great that Marble is doing better. Please keep us updated on your adorable kitties.

 

[peaches08]

Great news!

 

[thephcatlady]

Super great news!

I'm going to start a new thread chronicling their (or more accurately, my) adventures with frankenprey. It's the 2nd day today and I learned something interesting about my boys and their food. New thread's also because the attention has shifted from Marble to Pebble. 

 Gosh these two are exhausting.

Thank you guys for the suggestions. You've all been very helpful to me and Marble.