My 7 year old Persian collapsed while playing, he is fine now but I'd like to hear some opinions

[FeebysOwner]

Chronic Renal Failure tho it's in such early stages that there are no visible signs of anything being wrong but his creatinine levels are high enough to suggest the issue... Creatinine is 182 actually
Urea is 6.5...They are strongly against sub q or whatever fluids for treating kidney disease in Macedonia.

It does sound like your vets are likely using the IRIS (International Renal Interest Society) guidelines for assessing the stage of kidney disease, which most vets here in the US also do.

But even IRIS suggests that at the higher end of Stage 3 there might be a need for sub-Q fluids to help with dehydration that will occur as the kidneys continue to worsen in terms of function. The point of sub-Q fluids is when a cat can no longer drink enough to keep up with what is required to enable their kidneys to process waste correctly. I think of it as the kidneys trying to process 'sludge' (dehydrated blood) which put additional pressure on them to do so. But, more technically put - dehydration can cause toxin levels in the blood to rise and reduce blood flow through the kidneys, which in turn causes the kidneys to 'overwork' resulting in further deterioration.

I am not suggesting anything but rather curious if you know why your vets are so opposed to sub-Q fluids. Is it that they are opposed now at the Stage your cat is in (which would make sense), or are they opposed even in the higher stages?

There is also some dialog on when introducing renal food is most appropriate, however, I believe IRIS does denote Stage 2. There are other medical data that suggests it may be applicable at the later stages because renal foods are generally comprised to reduce the amount of protein as that can wear on the kidneys as well. However, it also has been known to attribute to muscle mass loss, escalating a process that occurs in aging cats with or without kidney disease. Just wonder how that applies to your cat who I think is still young yet at 7yo. (For perspective, I have an 18+yo cat with kidney disease in Stage 2-3.)

Lastly, I am also curious about the phosphorus level of your cat - I see you are giving him RenalVet, which I believe is a phosphorus binder.

Have you ever looked at this website? You might find it interesting if you are into becoming knowledgeable about all the nuances of kidney disease. Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - Everything You Need to Know to Help Your Cat (felinecrf.org)

 

[Joe_Danger1337]

I work with what is given to me and available here in Macedonia
I begged countless vets to administer sub q fluids to Anastasia who was in Stage 3 and some laughed me out, some refused flat out and even my current vet, while extremely polite denied it.
Vets here do not and I can't stress this enough, do NOT operate the way foreign and 1st world vets do.
You can change vets all you want, in a small country like mine which barely has 2 million people total, all vets know each other, they all went to the same school and all shared professors, many of which have private vet clinics now.
It's difficult to explain and understand but my experience with vets my entire life has been, they have their way of doing things and they won't budge no matter what and god forbid you suggest sites, online reading or anything, some flat out dismiss you, some yell at you and some convince you that you read too much.

My society is exceptionally different from what you guys are used to and I always feel guilty or as if I'm justifying or defending myself in front of foreigners about things I can't change.

If something changes and my vets agree to give the Casper sub q's when the time comes, awesome, but nothing will change. When Anastasia needed sub q fuilds, I tried explaining to vets how you administer it under the skin and showed them videos back then and I was laughed at, yelled at and treated as if I'm trying to undermine their knowledge and practice in all vet clinics but my current one where I was simply told we don't do that and given some explanation as to why it's bad.

 

[Joe_Danger1337]

I don't see phosphorus
I see something called Alkaline Phosphatase ALP and that's 120, it's within the norm, it should range from 5 to 131

Also I can't give you guys detailed answers because vets here just don't provide them
they have patient after patient, it's nonstop work and even when asked they simply give you quick, short answers and tell you not to read online too much.

ALL we were told was:
- We caught the situation early on
- We're going to go with RenalVet meds, some supplements and Renal food and see if the situation improves in a month
- Don't worry his life expectancy should be good since we caught it so early

They didn't say stage 1 or 2 or anything
I'm just judging that myself by the Creatinine levels and from what I've been reading over the years on the subject.

 

[Joe_Danger1337]

As for his heart condition
there is VERY limited equipment in the entire country for that
so the best they could do they did and determined it's not his heart
There is EKG in one clinic here but neither my vets nor that clinic recommends it atm because nobody is comfortable with sedating Casper after what happened.

I'm going to give you an example of the time I adopted Spaska
she was in a horrible state, less than 3 weeks old or had just turned 3 weeks. She needed kitty milk bad and all vets mine included kept insisting regular milk would do, but of course I knew it would only make things worse and it did. Eventually my vet tracked down a clinic that had Milk suitable for cats, we called them explained the situation and why we needed it. The kitten was just starting to eat solids, she was just learning and we explained she is going to need it for her bones and everything for a bit longer.
The vets at that clinic were exceptionally rude "if the kitten eats solids it doesn't need kitty milk, we're not selling kitty milk to you, someone else might need it more" and it ended there.

That's the way my country works unless you're super rich and have connections

 

[FeebysOwner]

I was simply told we don't do that and given some explanation as to why it's bad...My society is exceptionally different from what you guys are used to and I always feel guilty or as if I'm justifying or defending myself in front of foreigners about things I can't change.

That is what I was interested in - the explanation as to why it is bad.

You can't do anything about the way the vets work within in your country - it is what it is. And I was certainly not trying to make you feel as if you needed to defend them or yourself. So, please know that was not my intention.

ALP is a reading related to liver, not kidneys. I am not sure the abbreviation that might be used for phosphorus, unless it is P or maybe even PHOS. Otherwise, I am not sure.

 

[Joe_Danger1337]

Thanks, I know you weren't attacking me
but I have been bullied severely on gaming forums about cultural differences in my country for years so I'm always wary when talking to folk form the 1st world.
It's sometimes difficult to convey just how different some things are yet here they're seen as normal.

I've been meaning to make a topic on this site about the utter insane cat abuse that goes on in my country and I assume the Balkans in general, but it's a painful subject that I avoid thinking about let alone talking.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I know you can't do anything to get the vets to do anything but what they feel is appropriate. And I am sure they mean well for the most part.

 

[neely]

it's something else I've dreaded with every persian ever
Chronic Renal Failure

Our very first Persian passed away from Chronic Renal Failure but he was healthy for the most part until the end. Fortunately he did not suffer long and lived until a month shy of his 14th birthday.

I'm relieved Casper does was not diagnosed with heart disease and, as you said, his CRF is in the early stages. Fingers crossed for both of you and please keep us posted on your progress. I think everyone on this thread understands your circumstances which is why we are here to help and offer our support.

 

[Joe_Danger1337]

It's amazing that I can express how I feel about all this and be understood by people, I'm very grateful for that. People have been very kind and helpful as usual on this site.

 

[iPappy]

Thanks, I know you weren't attacking me
but I have been bullied severely on gaming forums about cultural differences in my country for years so I'm always wary when talking to folk form the 1st world.
It's sometimes difficult to convey just how different some things are yet here they're seen as normal.

I've been meaning to make a topic on this site about the utter insane cat abuse that goes on in my country and I assume the Balkans in general, but it's a painful subject that I avoid thinking about let alone talking.

It's weird how many people will attack someone online but wouldn't do it to their face. Those people don't know what they're talking about. I think you're doing a great job.
There was a vet in Gambia that spent his entire day removing mangoworms (maggots) from under the skin of dogs. Sometimes they were so infested he had to sedate them because it was so painful. A few puppies were so anemic and so far gone that he didn't even allow them to wake up. There was no pre-op bloodwork, there was no machines to monitor their heart rate or their breathing. They just did it as quickly as possible and hoped for the best. I'm sure some people thought it was just awful, but they have no idea that cardiologists, nephrologists and oncology isn't available everywhere for people, let alone pets...

 

[Meowmee]

They are strongly against sub q or whatever fluids for treating kidney disease in Macedonia. The vet prescribed RenalVet pills, some immune system boosters and renal food by Royal Canin which we've used before.
They said life expectancy is very good with these pills

I hope it helps him and lives a long time with it

 

[Meowmee]

As for his heart condition
there is VERY limited equipment in the entire country for that
so the best they could do they did and determined it's not his heart
There is EKG in one clinic here but neither my vets nor that clinic recommends it atm because nobody is comfortable with sedating Casper after what happened.

I'm going to give you an example of the time I adopted Spaska
she was in a horrible state, less than 3 weeks old or had just turned 3 weeks. She needed kitty milk bad and all vets mine included kept insisting regular milk would do, but of course I knew it would only make things worse and it did. Eventually my vet tracked down a clinic that had Milk suitable for cats, we called them explained the situation and why we needed it. The kitten was just starting to eat solids, she was just learning and we explained she is going to need it for her bones and everything for a bit longer.
The vets at that clinic were exceptionally rude "if the kitten eats solids it doesn't need kitty milk, we're not selling kitty milk to you, someone else might need it more" and it ended there.

That's the way my country works unless you're super rich and have connections

Very sorry to hear this. It seems like a lot of the DVM are not following their oath if they even take one there.
I get what the limitations are there from what you have said, but the doctors are supposed to want to try to do the best they can for the patient.

A lot of them don’t do that here either sadly. One case one of my brothers doctors has been doing fraudulent things and we are reporting him to the insurance company and hope that he will not receive a huge bill so there are a lot of crooks here too. This doctor I looked up online and he was already charged with fraud in another state but he got away with it by paying a large fine and still kept his license.

I hope that what you do for Casper will help

 

[Meowmee]

Creatinine is 182 actually
Urea is 6.5

A few of my cats had kidney disease a long time ago, Sybil was the last in 2018, but then she had hcm and chf from too much fluid which took over everything.

I used to be more up on it, all the numbers etc. I have been through a lot of traumatic things since the pandemic and my brain is kind of fried. I wish I could help more.

There are some very good kidney disease groups for cats on Facebook if you’re on there.

 

[Joe_Danger1337]

Casper took to his renal royal canin food well yesterday and this morning but now he wants regular persian Royal Canin or nothing at all...so this is going to be an issue.
Managing a special diet for a single cat in a small 4 cat household where isolating one cat results in the other 3 panicking at the door lol and the isolated cat getting confused and refusing food isn't going to be easy. I've gone through this several times when some of them needed special diets briefly.

Now ALL cats want Casper's special food, I guess for his mom and sister it won't do them any harm, but Spaska should stick to regular food she is too young for this.

How bad is it if he eats a mix of regular and renal food when he wants to all while taking these meds regularly

RENALVET – VetExpert

vetexpert.eu

that's all the meds they said they have for this condition plus some vitamin supplements like b complex and such.

Trust me over the years I've tried mixing foods, heating foods up, conditioning them to want a certain type of food and when these cats decide something there's no changing their mind.
I can easily get Casper to come running when called for food but if it's not the food that's on his mind he won't even touch it, all 4 are like that.

 

[Meowmee]

Casper took to his renal royal canin food well yesterday and this morning but now he wants regular persian Royal Canin or nothing at all...so this is going to be an issue.
Managing a special diet for a single cat in a small 4 cat household where isolating one cat results in the other 3 panicking at the door lol and the isolated cat getting confused and refusing food isn't going to be easy. I've gone through this several times when some of them needed special diets briefly.

Now ALL cats want Casper's special food, I guess for his mom and sister it won't do them any harm, but Spaska should stick to regular food she is too young for this.

How bad is it if he eats a mix of regular and renal food when he wants to all while taking these meds regularly

http://[URL][URL]https://vetexpert.eu/en/produkty/renalvet

[/URL][/URL]
that's all the meds they said they have for this condition plus some vitamin supplements like b complex and such.

Trust me over the years I've tried mixing foods, heating foods up, conditioning them to want a certain type of food and when these cats decide something there's no changing their mind.
I can easily get Casper to come running when called for food but if it's not the food that's on his mind he won't even touch it, all 4 are like that.

Different foods are really hard to manage. I have that going on here with Fred and Cinn eating one and my other guys not being able to eat that one. Also Merlin and Quinn eating Zena’s food..

I would say feed Casper by himself but you did that? Ask you dvm what they think.

 

[Joe_Danger1337]

I've talked about this stuff with vets before they don't have much to say.
What I did was last night I just left his Renal food in one of the food bowls in my computer room and he has been eating it a lot once he had his fix of regular food, the other cats seem to like it too of course.
It's a bit of a mess but I think we're going to have to accept the fact that he will have to eat a mixed diet at this point as long as we have the meds. He does seem to prefer the new food for the moment so that's good.

 

[Alldara]

J Joe_Danger1337 cats like a slow changeover anyway so mixing for awhile is more than fine I would think. A gastrointestinal upset wouldn't be great either.

 

[Kflowers]

Maybe you could put a tiny bit of the renal food in the other cats' food so they'd focus on that and not distract Casper during meals?

 

[Joe_Danger1337]

Maybe you could put a tiny bit of the renal food in the other cats' food so they'd focus on that and not distract Casper during meals?

Tried this with Kala's urinary food when she had to take it for a while, in fact there's still some left over they eat it as a treat now and they'd find the kibles, eat them up and then bother the cat with the most of the food they like anyway
it's all good as they all love each other but it's a problem when you have to feed a specific diet and nothing else.

 

[iPappy]

I've talked about this stuff with vets before they don't have much to say.
What I did was last night I just left his Renal food in one of the food bowls in my computer room and he has been eating it a lot once he had his fix of regular food, the other cats seem to like it too of course.
It's a bit of a mess but I think we're going to have to accept the fact that he will have to eat a mixed diet at this point as long as we have the meds. He does seem to prefer the new food for the moment so that's good.

With cats, you can't really force them to eat a food if they have other demands, because the risk of other health issues coming up is just too dangerous. If he likes getting his snack of "regular" food then eats his renal food, I'd call it a win!