Minnie Has Slightly Elevated Alt & Alkp

[my3sweeties]

Sorry for the long post.... Minnie my 7 yr old cat was always approx 13 lbs. I used to feed her Fancy Feast canned and Fromm dry food. When my other cat Sophie became ill with IBD I decided to change their food in case it was an allergy to something in the FF that was causing issues with Sophie. So both cats were switched to a raw diet. Sophie took to it right away, Minnie did not like it. So Minnie was switched to a high protein no carb wet food and I completely removed the dry food for both. This was in October 2017.
I started to notice that Minnie was losing weight. At first I thought it was normal due to the fact that she is eating more protein and no dry ( which she used to eat about 3/4 cup per day plus 1.5 cans FF). Since mid Jan, she has been constantly begging me for food and despite eating 1.5 large cans of food, she continues to lose weight. I had blood work done and most came back normal except elevated ALT and ALKp. Her GLU was low. My first thought before the bloods were done was thyroid or diabetes. Both are normal.
The vet prescribed Zentonil (sp?) which is SAMe and milk thistle but the pills are HUGE. Even split she won’t take them. I tried crushing them and mixing with a bit of food and that didn’t work either. My question is, can I buy human grade milk thistle powder and mix it in her food? If so what brand do you use. Do any of you have experience with digestive emzymes? Do you think adding that would help Minnie absorb the nutrients from her food and help with the weight loss? I’ve included her blood test results. Please help...!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

As far as I know, human milk thistle powder would be fine to use, but I don't know if she will eat it in her food or not...I've heard it's bitter tasting . Have you asked your Vet about Denamarin? It's not all that big, maybe the size of an aspirin. Our old girl used to get raised ALT once in awhile and we tried to give her Denamarin for it, but she was just impossible to pill, no matter what size the pill was. Also, there are lots of Liver Support supplements for cats and dogs available out there in different forms...powder, tinctures, pills that are not prescription. Our Vet had us add 1 to 2 drops of Vitamin E to Callie's food every day (100 iu of Vit E) since we couldn't pill her.

As to the Digestive Enzymes, yes, that might help Minnie absorb the nutrients better. We used to use Prozyme brand.

You mentioned you switched to a higher grade canned food. Did you check the calories in the new food. Calories can vary vastly in canned food, so it could be she's not getting the same amount she used to get, particularly since she's no longer eating kibble. That could be the problem. It may be that she really does need to eat more.

 

[my3sweeties]

As far as I know, human milk thistle powder would be fine to use, but I don't know if she will eat it in her food or not...I've heard it's bitter tasting . Have you asked your Vet about Denamarin? It's not all that big, maybe the size of an aspirin. Our old girl used to get raised ALT once in awhile and we tried to give her Denamarin for it, but she was just impossible to pill, no matter what size the pill was. Also, there are lots of Liver Support supplements for cats and dogs available out there in different forms...powder, tinctures, pills that are not prescription. Our Vet had us add 1 to 2 drops of Vitamin E to Callie's food every day (100 iu of Vit E) since we couldn't pill her.

As to the Digestive Enzymes, yes, that might help Minnie absorb the nutrients better. We used to use Prozyme brand.

You mentioned you switched to a higher grade canned food. Did you check the calories in the new food. Calories can vary vastly in canned food, so it could be she's not getting the same amount she used to get, particularly since she's no longer eating kibble. That could be the problem. It may be that she really does need to eat more.

.

 

[my3sweeties]

Minnie is eating 1.5 cans of Nutri Source brand. She gets either the High plains or the pork flavor. Both are 175 and 170 cal per can respectively. I also noticed that salt is fairly high up on the ingredient list which could account for her drinking more than usual. Any thoughts on this brand of food? Can anyone tell me the brands and where they purchase non prescription liver support supplements. I’m definitely going to ask my Vet about digestive enzymes, Vit E and Denamarin. Minnie is usually pretty good about being pilled so if I can get a pill thats smaller that would be great.

 

[white shadow]

Just to add......you need to 'up' the amount you're feeding as well - and, right away.

The food doesn't look too bad, although I suspect a lot of those calories are from chickpeas. In light of what's been happening, I think I'd be using Hill's a/d or the Iams equivalent in the short term - whichever is available from the Vet (The Iams is a higher calorie product)

This is the Denamarin: Denamarin Google "denamarin for cats" and you'll see it from Amazon/Chewy etc (you'll need a Rx)

I'd also be adding in some extra Taurine for a while....I had the same issue develop with one of mine and later discovered some retinal degeneration - it doesn't take long for Taurine deficiency to do damage. I use Now Taurine:

It's tasteless so can be mixed into food.
.

 

[my3sweeties]

Just to add......you need to 'up' the amount you're feeding as well - and, right away.

The food doesn't look too bad, although I suspect a lot of those calories are from chickpeas. In light of what's been happening, I think I'd be using Hill's a/d or the Iams equivalent in the short term - whichever is available from the Vet (The Iams is a higher calorie product)

This is the Denamarin: Denamarin Google "denamarin for cats" and you'll see it from Amazon/Chewy etc (you'll need a Rx)

I'd also be adding in some extra Taurine for a while....I had the same issue develop with one of mine and later discovered some retinal degeneration - it doesn't take long for Taurine deficiency to do damage. I use Now Taurine:

It's tasteless so can be mixed into food.
.

Just to add......you need to 'up' the amount you're feeding as well - and, right away.

The food doesn't look too bad, although I suspect a lot of those calories are from chickpeas. In light of what's been happening, I think I'd be using Hill's a/d or the Iams equivalent in the short term - whichever is available from the Vet (The Iams is a higher calorie product)

This is the Denamarin: Denamarin Google "denamarin for cats" and you'll see it from Amazon/Chewy etc (you'll need a Rx)

I'd also be adding in some extra Taurine for a while....I had the same issue develop with one of mine and later discovered some retinal degeneration - it doesn't take long for Taurine deficiency to do damage. I use Now Taurine:

It's tasteless so can be mixed into food.
.

 

[my3sweeties]

How much taurine should I add daily and is it possible to have too much taurine ( overdose)? I’ll get the taurine to orrow after work and maybe I should switch to another brand of cat food that has more animal protein. I’d love for Minnie to eat raw but I’ll get her through one battle at a time and for now that’s getting her liver detoxed and switching to a more meat based canned. Thanks for your help! Any more ideas are appreciated...

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!
Not that you don't already know, but for any other readers and lurkers, another TCS member pointed this out to me;
Denosyl = s-adenosyl = sam-e
Marin = silymarin= milk thistle

The milk thistle product I was using is Herbsmith milk thistle liver support for dogs and cats 550 mg. It's clean, --100% milk thistle powder. It needs to be refrigerated. I used less than the suggested amount for a cat and so by the time the contents started to have a stronger smell to the point that my cat began to be able to detect it and wouldn't consume it was about 8-9 months. Milk Thistle Product

Now I'm using 4Paws (not Four Paws) Pet Milk Thistle Liver & Kidney Supplement for DOGS and CATS with DHA, EPA, Silymarin, and Vitamin B (B1 B2 B6 B12) to Prevent Liver and Kidney Disease - amazon

When my Big Guy's liver number results came back as elevated I got no help/direction/guidance from the vet. So,

I got rid of almost every food with Menadione (a scary synthetic vitamin K that effects the liver)
I got him started on some store bought frozen raw in addition to his other safe canned and dry food
I found the Milk Thistle liver support
and I put a water filter on my kitchen faucet.

The idea there being that although I'm not in an area with water that's undrinkable, there's still "stuff" in the water here. I want to give his liver a chance to deal with as little as possible and thereby be given the opportunity to heal and repair itself, as that marvelous bodily organ can do unlike most of the other organs.

In your case, I would eliminate foods with menadione and also try and look for foods where salt/sodium is as far down on the ingredient list as possible. Have a variety of brands so that her system hopefully has a better chance of dealing with bad additives and such, because the best food is the food she will eat.

Also, you could consider freeze dried minnows, purebites, orijen treats, a small bit of raw egg yolk (no raw egg white but cooked egg white is safe) either as toppers or treats. Crumbled kibble can work as a topper.
In addition try goat milk, canned kitten food and/or Kitten Milk Replacer, and these;

• Chicken or beef flavored baby food - make sure it doesn't contain any garlic or onions
• Tuna
• Salmon
• Sardines (make sure there are no bones)
• mackerel
• Boiled unseasoned cut up Chicken or turkey

Hang in there, and all the very best wishes and prayers to you!!

 

[my3sweeties]

I just checked the ingredients on the pork and prairie flavors and they both contain manadione. So I will be bringing them back and trying to find food without that ingredient. Also, I went on Amazon to order the 4paws supplement ($22) but they don’t ship to Canada. When I went on Amazon.ca, they want $65 for the same product.

 

[my3sweeties]

Could you post a pic of the 4paws bottle please when you have a chance just to make sure I order the right one. Also, it says they are bacon and cheese flavor chewables, is that correct?

 

[Furballsmom]

yes, bacon and cheese flavored, that's the one - I can't seem to find a way to get a viable link for you, and I'm not on a computer where I can get a photo yet....however, (ouch!) - would the Herbsmith MilkThistle powder be better for you, as in easier to obtain for less money? Or a 100% Milk Thistle product that doesn't have a lot of other additives.
I totally hate that Amazon does that, and I'm not seeing another source on the internet that I trust for the 4Paws although I'll keep looking.
Regarding human grade Milk Thistle I found this
Milk Thistle (St Mary's Thistle) is human-grade and comes with dosage for horses. Also suitable for other species such as sheep, goats, alpalcas and pigs

 

[Furballsmom]

Denamarin Tablets
Detoxafen-L (liver support)
I'm feeling like I'm flailing a little bit, but what about these being available in Canada?

Due to the fact that I'm not seeing a website or contact number on the bottle of the 4paws that I have, I'm actually beginning to wonder about this product - even though it does state it's made in the US...

Oh about your question regarding overdosing on Taurine - It is an amino acid and will not cause an overdose, any excess will be excreted.

 

[Furballsmom]

So, with all of that said, I'm not a vet and absolutely am not intending to provide any info that over-rides what your vet says
I'm just a pet owner who had to do a lot of "legwork" on my own and tried my best to wade though the internet's vast amount of information to find the viable pieces.
If you can get your vet to work with you regarding something that's easier to administer (why don't they think of that ??!) and hopefully will answer your questions, you will be well armed to try and do battle with this for your furbaby.

 

[my3sweeties]

I absolutely apprciate all your help. I am going to try to work with my vet. Not being a holistic vet, we sometimes have a difference of opinion, but I do trust her. I did find some organic milk thistle seeds that I was going to grind down and add to her food but Ive been told that they’re bitter tasting and I think I’m going to return them. Ive got an appt with my vet tonight and hopefully she can prescribe Denamarin. If so, I’ll use that u til I can get some 4Paws shipped to my sister in Virginia and then she can forward them to me. The cost diff btwn Canada and the US is crazy even taking into account the exchnage rate! Thanks again for your help. You and this site have been amazing.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Don't know if this will help you or not since you are in Canada, but here is a link to several liver supplements: milk thistle for Cats at Only Natural Pet Store

BTW, I also only use filtered water.

 

[white shadow]

Hi again....sorry for my delay !

You might consider speaking to these people in Toronto (and, I've pulled up the Denamarin page) - I've previously (only) spoken with them and was pleased: Denamarin Tablets I'm sure you can navigate from there.

On Taurine, whatever about theories, there isn't evidence of any danger in cats exposed to 'overdose'. It cannot be stored in the body and is excreted in urine. Here's a reputable source with dosing info: Taurine for Dogs and Cats - PetPlace I started out with 500mg daily for a few months and reduced to 250mg. A deficiency will also result in cardiac disease as well......and, both of these, of course, go unseen until suddenly they're not. The retinas are not regenerative, the Cardiomyopathy may be reversed. Here's one ref if you'd like: http://www.saintfrancis.org/wp-content/uploads/Taurine-Retinopathy.pdf

A couple of foods I use:

• Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken and I add some shredded lightly cooked chicken thigh + Taurine: [bottom of this page is 5.5oz, also in 13oz Dog, identical recipe, about $4 CDN]: https://www.instinctpetfood.com/cats/wet-treats\
• Wellness Complete Pate, chicken & turkey, w/my added chicken etc [1st items on this page, also large cans, ~$4 CDN]: Wet Recipes for Cats | Wellness Pet Food

I'll try to keep my ear closer to the ground!
.

 

[my3sweeties]

I picked up some Now brand taurine in 100mg capsules. I sprinkled about 1/4 of the capsule on her food and she ate it! Yay! She’s usually fussy about me adding stuff to her food. Y vet is orderi g Denamarin for me and she will have it by tomorrow. Hopefully I’ll be able to pill Minnie. She also gave me some b12 and I gave Minnie her first shot a few minutes ago. So far so good. Vet said to give her a shot once a week for 4 weeks and then once a month.
My vet also ga e me another chewable milk thistle pill to try out. I had to laugh when I saw the size of it. Its about the same size as a quarter! She said to give her half a pill a day. So I cut it in 4 it and spread a bit of butter on one piece, .she sniffed it, pawed it and walked away. A minute later her sister Sophie came by and ate it...cats! Gotta love ‘em!

 

[Furballsmom]

That's terrific that she ate the taurine.
"A minute later her sister Sophie came by and ate it...cats! Gotta love ‘em!"
LOL
Can you determine a way to crush that milk thistle pill?

 

[my3sweeties]

Hi again....sorry for my delay !

You might consider speaking to these people in Toronto (and, I've pulled up the Denamarin page) - I've previously (only) spoken with them and was pleased: Denamarin Tablets I'm sure you can navigate from there.

On Taurine, whatever about theories, there isn't evidence of any danger in cats exposed to 'overdose'. It cannot be stored in the body and is excreted in urine. Here's a reputable source with dosing info: Taurine for Dogs and Cats - PetPlace I started out with 500mg daily for a few months and reduced to 250mg. A deficiency will also result in cardiac disease as well......and, both of these, of course, go unseen until suddenly they're not. The retinas are not regenerative, the Cardiomyopathy may be reversed. Here's one ref if you'd like: http://www.saintfrancis.org/wp-content/uploads/Taurine-Retinopathy.pdf

A couple of foods I use:

• Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken and I add some shredded lightly cooked chicken thigh + Taurine: [bottom of this page is 5.5oz, also in 13oz Dog, identical recipe, about $4 CDN]: https://www.instinctpetfood.com/cats/wet-treats\
• Wellness Complete Pate, chicken & turkey, w/my added chicken etc [1st items on this page, also large cans, ~$4 CDN]: Wet Recipes for Cats | Wellness Pet Food

I'll try to keep my ear closer to the ground!
.

Thank you for the links and advice on new brands of cat food. I’ll give the food a try but I’ll have to keep her sister away from Minnie’s bowl because Sophie has IBD and is allergic to chicken and turkey. Thanks for your help, it get overwhelming when you are trying to do your best for your fur baby. My vet has ordered Denamarin for me. She said she used to prescribe that when she worked in another clinic. She is now part owner of the clinic she is at now.

 

[white shadow]

That was just hilarious! Hmmmmm.....I wonder whether, if Minnie had seen Sophie scarf it down......envy might have won the day!

All of those foods are available in small cans, too.....better for samplers. I know that PetValue and PetSt̶u̶p̶i̶d̶ smart have them.
.