Minies

[cinart]

Hi everyone,
I'm new to the forum. I am interested in breeding miniature persians. Any breeders out there that can sell me a breeding pair (different lines of course)? I have a Tortie Himalayan that I tried to breed several years ago, but I lost the litter and had to spay her. What a lose that was. She is really a beautiful cat. I recently lost my breeding male (standard) to cancer. He was my "baby". I would still like to continue as a breeder, but want to again try to work with miniatures. Personality is the most important factor. My Brutus was so very special. He propagated that trait in every litter he produced. I live in Pa. Any Minie Breeders out there??? I would love to hear from you.

 

[wellingtoncats]

We don't have Mini Persians here in NZ, they are perfect the way they are

 

[goldenkitty45]

WHY do you want to breed minuture cats? Don't we have enough problems with some of the breeds?

Personally, I think you are DEAD wrong in breeding - it won't improve the breed and you are just creating more kittens with no real purpose. I'm sure you don't show or anything do you?

 

[jen]

That's just wrong man, and I am not even a breeder... miniature anything... isnt that like a defect or mutation or something or morally wrong perhaps

 

[imagyne]

Originally Posted by TOY LAND PERSIANS

Teacup and Toy Persians did not exist until Summer of 1995. It was then that a spontaneous genetic mutation occurred within the germ cell of a male Persian cat named Treker, giving rise to a dominant gene for diminutive size. Treker is a 14-pound Texas whopper, who, to date, produces 76% miniature kittens: Toys, maturing at around 5 pounds, and Teacups, maturing at around 4 pounds. When this phenomenon was discovered, several test breedings were done, under the guidance of Dr. Solveig Pflueger, a noted feline geneticist, and Dr. Kent Cooper, D.V.M., to determine dominance and penetrance of the gene, health of the progeny, etc. After nearly a decade of study, with no difficulties arising whatsoever, these little guys are happy and healthy.

While I don't particularly have an interest in this breed, I thought I would add my 2 cents about these little ones. First off, far be it for me to condenm this breed, as I breed Munchkins, which is also a spontaneous genetic mutation, although there is no way to make it a dominant gene. I know Dr Pflueger very well, and I know that (in this particular line, I have NO other info on any other toy catteries) if Dr Pflueger was involved, this line should be stable.

For those of you who would post in this forum, just to say derogitory things to the poster, think about this:

Why is it acceptable to you that Persians and Himmies have been bred over the years to include a much flatter face, but you've a problem with this. If your answer is that not every breeder is going to be concientious as the one quoted above, well, guess what.. every breed faces the same problem with breeders.

It seems that not very many people have a problem the currently accepted breeds, yet no one really thinks about how they came to be. No one even knows about how many breeds were cross bred to other breeds after WWII, just to keep the genetic pool alive.

As I've said, I would not breed them, but I certainly cannot slam someone who is showing an interest.

 

[serenasmommy]

Serena is a Toy Persian-Himmy cross, and she is perfect! However, I won't sell her, and I don't know anyone who is breeding them. She's actually just a fluke cat! Plus, I'm in Canada, so... Good luck!

 

[scamperfarms]

I do not reccomend breeding toy size persians. they are not ment to be that size.

 

[beckiboo]

It seems that it would be easier to find and breed the full size cats. I'm no breeder, in fact I am in rescue! But I guess I would urge you to fully research the healthy kitten rate from the parents, etc.

I never heard of miniature persians before. Just the idea of how tiny normal sized kittens are, I would be very afraid of miniature babies, especially as you already know the heartbreak of losing a litter.

If you do end up breeding them, I would love pics. I bet they are adorable!

 

[goldenkitty45]

I don't breed persians, I bred rexes and there was a few rex breeders trying to promote "mini" rexes - like 3-4 lbs when grown. That is NOT healthy. I know that doctor too and I highly disagree with a lot of things she supports.

I also disagree with breeding many of the newer breeds that have come out in the past 10-15 yrs.

If people were breeding to "improve" the breed, I'd have no problem with it - but many are producing "trendy" cats which I believe is wrong. There's a reason why she lost that litter - why are people messing around with mother nature?

And the flat face persian comment - I don't particularly like that look (too extreme) but that's just me.

 

[imagyne]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I don't breed persians, I bred rexes and there was a few rex breeders trying to promote "mini" rexes - like 3-4 lbs when grown. That is NOT healthy. I know that doctor too and I highly disagree with a lot of things she supports.

Okay it's not that I know her, she's a friend of mine, and while I too disagree with probably those same things, You have to understand her point of view. She is a genetic scientist and doesn't always look at things the way you and I would, not that I am defending her, just her data. There are ALOT of breeds that would be worse off had it not been for the genetic work she's done with them.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I also disagree with breeding many of the newer breeds that have come out in the past 10-15 yrs.

Ummm me too

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

If people were breeding to "improve" the breed, I'd have no problem with it - but many are producing "trendy" cats which I believe is wrong. There's a reason why she lost that litter - why are people messing around with mother nature?

Well, they came about from mother nature, true in the wild they would not last, but they aren't in wild. Fact of the matter is, spontaneous mutations occur and there will be someone trying to profit from it, better to have someone responsible research the breed make sure it's sound than the alternative. We're not talking geneticly engineered felines here, if that was the case it'd be a whole different ball game.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

And the flat face persian comment - I don't particularly like that look (too extreme) but that's just me.

I like them either way, as long as it's a good one, problem is there are alot of breeders who don't know how to breed good ones.

 

[rosehawke]

Just for the sake of argument (or debate

although I'm not overly fond of the idea either,) say this spontaneous mutation happened in the wild. Oh, I don't know, maybe in a species of wild-cat whose normal habitat is forest, but this happens on the edge of densely wooded brushland. Now, in the normal habitat the smaller kits would be outcompeted by their "normal" brethren and the mutation would die out. But say some of them move into the brushland, there the larger cats are at a disadvantage, they can't maneuver in the brush as well, or follow the prey as well as they're just too big. There the new mutation is at an advantage and the "normal" sized kits either die out or move back to the forest. After a few generations the larger cats would have been totally bred out of the brushland population.

Presto. New sub-species (or breed, if you prefer.) Natural selection at its finest

.

 

[ashleynicole]

SerenasMommy - I would love to see a picture of your cat! I bet she is gorgeous!

 

[scamperfarms]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I don't breed persians, I bred rexes and there was a few rex breeders trying to promote "mini" rexes - like 3-4 lbs when grown. That is NOT healthy. I know that doctor too and I highly disagree with a lot of things she supports.

I also disagree with breeding many of the newer breeds that have come out in the past 10-15 yrs.

If people were breeding to "improve" the breed, I'd have no problem with it - but many are producing "trendy" cats which I believe is wrong. There's a reason why she lost that litter - why are people messing around with mother nature?

And the flat face persian comment - I don't particularly like that look (too extreme) but that's just me.

I agree. thats why my babies are the more old style

 

[bengalbabe]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I also disagree with breeding many of the newer breeds that have come out in the past 10-15 yrs.

Why? What is the difference when the breed was started? They all started somewhere.

 

[goldenkitty45]

I know there are bengals breeders on here, so I don't want to get in an arguement over it. One of my pet peeves is people who bred wild cats into domestic cats and created a new breed. Why? Give me some good reasons why its necessary to take a wild cat and incorporate into domestic cats? I don't see the purpose other then as money making. Was it to improve either side? Or just because someone thought it was a good idea?

Bengals are not the only ones that are adding "wild cat" to the mix either. Keep the domestics and wild cats separated.

I can understand natural mutations to a point, but to purposely create a new breed just because you can...makes no sense other then to profit for money.

 

[bengalbabe]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I know there are bengals breeders on here, so I don't want to get in an arguement over it. One of my pet peeves is people who bred wild cats into domestic cats and created a new breed. Why? Give me some good reasons why its necessary to take a wild cat and incorporate into domestic cats? I don't see the purpose other then as money making. Was it to improve either side? Or just because someone thought it was a good idea?

Bengals are not the only ones that are adding "wild cat" to the mix either. Keep the domestics and wild cats separated.

I can understand natural mutations to a point, but to purposely create a new breed just because you can...makes no sense other then to profit for money.

Actually originally because Asian Leopard Cats (used to make bengal breed) do not catch Felv and the idea was to make a breed of cat that did not catch this disease. Asian Leopard Cats do sometimes breed with domestics naturally and more now that humans are encroaching on wild animals territoies.
Another reason was to create a domestic cat that looks wild because it was figured that if people had a kitty at home that looked wild they would be less likely to kill animals for their fur and wear animal fur because they relate the animal to the pet kitty.
Finally all domestics originated with wild cats. Where do you think all the domestics came from? What is the difference of when man domesticated the cats? There is genetically no difference between a wild cat and a domestic.
There is no reason for you to "not like" the idea of breedin wild with domestic but there are plenty of reasons to breed wild with domestic.
I think natural mutations are not natural at all. If you take a mutated gene are breed that into a cat your truely messing with nature. That kind of cat would never normally procreate in the wild.

 

[bengalbabe]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I know there are bengals breeders on here, so I don't want to get in an arguement over it. One of my pet peeves is people who bred wild cats into domestic cats and created a new breed. Why? Give me some good reasons why its necessary to take a wild cat and incorporate into domestic cats? I don't see the purpose other then as money making. Was it to improve either side? Or just because someone thought it was a good idea?

Bengals are not the only ones that are adding "wild cat" to the mix either. Keep the domestics and wild cats separated.

I can understand natural mutations to a point, but to purposely create a new breed just because you can...makes no sense other then to profit for money.

BTW, I do take offence to you saying that all bengal breeders are in for soley the money. You have not a clue how much money it takes to breed high quality cats. You have no idea how hard it is to breed a very high quality SBT (at least 4 generations away from wild ALC) bengal that LOOKS wild. Good bengal breeders are always trying to perfect the SBT bengal. Most of the time that means constantly retiring queens and studs and selling them for a very low price so they can make room for higher quality bengals that fit the standard better. And believe me the high quality bengals do not come cheap! I have at least $10,000.00 worth of cats myself. Do you know how long it's going to take for me to get that money back? And that's just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to cat care and feeding, vet bills, ect. On top of that I only get one, maybe two litters every year (that's so far 8 kittens a year!!!). Most of my buyers are pet buyers so I don't get breeder prices for my high quality kittens. You tell me how im in for it for the money? I have to work a seperate full time job just to support my hobby of breeding bengals. Otherwise I would not be able to do so.
Please know what your talking about before you post something that is so far off the mark that it's offensive!!!!

 

[cyberkitten]

I am a scientist and see no ethical reason to breed cats (or any animal) because of a defect - which in this case it is. That is hardly improving the breed. It just saddens me to no end to hear about this sort of thing - as one of our local and much respected Persian experts and breeders of many champions advises over and over (It is sort of her mantra) "if you hear the word "toy" or "teacup", run asd fast you can from that breeder!!!!! It is almost guranteed they will not be in any shows. I do not include real munchkins in this but ther deliberate breeding by unscrupulous people of small cats with known issues.

 

[bengalbabe]

I agree with you on mutations/genetic defects, however the original post asked if anyone here knows where she can find such a cat. We don't have to agree with her but she certainly has a right to make a descision for herself what to breed. She didn't ask to be given a sermon on why people shouldn't breed minis/teacups.

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by CyberKitten

I am a scientist and see no ethical reason to breed cats (or any animal) because of a defect - which in this case it is. That is hardly improving the breed. It just saddens me to no end to hear about this sort of thing - as one of our local and much respected Persian experts and breeders of many champions advises over and over (It is sort of her mantra) "if you hear the word "toy" or "teacup", run asd fast you can from that breeder!!!!! It is almost guranteed they will not be in any shows. I do not include real munchkins in this but ther deliberate breeding by unscrupulous people of small cats with known issues.

I to am on track to be a scientist( still learning

) ... I have seen tea cup yorkies and they make me cry... I woulnt want to see a tea cup persian... spontaneous yet healthy mutation as with munchkins not a problem.. they are just cats with short legs..