Mineralization on/in Kidneys and Calcium on/in Kidneys

[FeralHearts]

Poor Charlie has had some issues again lately. Always something new and frightening.

The reason for the on/in is the Vet said on but the ultrasound report says in. What I've been able to research so far shows a difference between the two. While the report itself says "in" when I look at the accompanying images they do look "on" rather than in.

Issues that started us on the road to get another ultrasound:

Charlies appetite went to pot. He began to toss up way more furballs than normal. He looked tired and a bit lethargic. Will "pick up" once given Mirtazapine / Mirataz ointment 2% w/w .

He doesn't cry in the litter box - even when he had a really bad UTI once - you'd never have known. The end of June he cried in the litter box and went to another and did the same. He had trouble with poop. I thought UTI as that usually what constipates him. Treatment at home was not working and the next day day - took him to his Doctor. He was given an enema. Sent home with Lactulose and Grey Wolf Fiber Boost + GI.

About two weeks later he had to go back, still really hard poops and a couple outside the litterbox. Still trouble.
We decided on an ultrasound which was done on July 17, 2023.

According to the ultrasound all is well minus Mineralization on/in Kidneys and Calcium on/in Kidneys and some debris in the bladder.

Even today tris morning his appetite went again, lethargic, tired and he low growled at me when I picked him up. I gave him Mirtazapine / Mirataz ointment 2% w/w and he picked right up.

He's been going to unusual spots to sleep and coming to me for comfort much more often.

There are a lot of details below as despite the report - something not right that is causing him issues enough.


Charlie history:

Age: 10 years + He will be 11 on Sept 1, 2023. So he's close!
Asthma
Mild HCM (his heart is also at the upper limit of what the chest cavity can hold.)
Suspected IBD or IBS (while this new ultrasound says a bit different and older one says the opposite.
Food sensitivities / allergies
Sensitive Skin
Idiopathic Cystitis and as a result can get constipated.
He gets hairballs a lot lately. I give him - or rather have to force and it helps.
Now arthritis.
Now Pancreatitis. Ultrasounds says fine. fPLI says positive. Now fPLI can have a false negative, I've not yet heard it to have a false positive.

Personality quirks:

Picky eater is an understatement of the century. I lost track at about 70+ wet foods.
Strong sense of smell.
Dominant personality but somewhat afraid of Braveheart who is tiny compared to him.
If you brush him and he is at all awake. Prepare to be bitten.
Stressed by care rides and needs to take the gabapentin or will pant like a dog and have breathing issues.

Home environment:
Mostly Quiet. No children. No drama. No loud music.
On July 19th 2023 we lost Mia who was ill. Near a month to the day she was diagnosed with Cancer.
If I start to get upset - I leave the house or go to the basement away from the cats. That has been a fair bit the past few days.
Does have an issue with one of the othercats, Braveheart, who is also dominate. (Female retired feral. Has been inside 5 years now.)
White Label, the other sister, she is a bit spooked by Charlie sometimes - she runs - he chases.

Current foods/Feeding:
Fed 3 times per day. 2 meals of wet and one dry

Dry: Multifunction Urinary SO + Hydrolyzed Protein

Wet: There are only three he will eat:
Main one: Simply Nourish Adult Salmon pate
Secondary that he will sometimes eat: Performatrin Salmon, turkey and duck
They do think he has a sensitivity to either chicken or turkey however he has had no reaction to this. So I lean more to chicken. He was on wellness for a long time and he reacted to both the chicken and the salmon and turkey pate.
Third one he will sometimes eat: Blue Buffalo wilderness Salmon pate

Treats: Pure bites Salmon - though he's gone off them a bit in recent years. There was a change is processing I think as some bags are somewhat 'wet' and not dry. It's odd.

The vet would like him on just the dry now Dry: Multifunction Urinary SO + Hydrolyzed Protein. I hate that idea but if it's best for him I will have to comply.


Supplements:
-Grizzly Salmon oil
-D'mannose -recent addition - will need to talk about this.
-Forti Flora SA we were trying the Grey Wolf Fiber Boost + GI. The trouble with Charlie is that he has a strong sense of smell. Tricking him is HARD. The Forti Flora SA he takes better but it's still hit and miss - same with the Grey Wolf Fiber Boost + GI but that was more miss.I think because the amount to mix in is more.
UroMAXX for kidney and bladder

Medications:

Lactulose: She had him on a pretty big dosage for a bit - then he went from constipate to soft near diarrhea. There was really no inbetween here.It was a serious fine balance.

Asthma meds:
FloVent HFA 125mg aerosol
He usually only really needs this two times a year for a couple of months. Side note: it seem to help with his constipation. Maybe it's helping the inflammation in the GI? He has needed it lately more - maybe from all the fires and poor air quality?

Recently he has had this a couple of times:
Mirtazapine / Mirataz ointment 2% w/w - notice that if he doesn't feel good and gets this med - he perks right up both in his personality, mood and his eating.

Tonight:
She sent him home with buprenophine 0.3mg/ml and wants me to give him 0.2ml 3 times a day for a few days. Although the medication bottle says twice a day.

If his breathing acts up because of his Asthma she wants me to take him to the ER. (To me that didn't need ot e said but maybe right now with me being in a grieving state might not be bad to hit me in the head. I take that back. HIt me in the head anytime. Best to make sure someone gets it then assume they will.) That at the moment is a terrifying thought. Are ER right now is so busy that often have to send people near an hour away. I'm not starting this until tomorrow night wne I will be home a few days to monitor.

Vet would also like to put him on Anti-anxiety medicine, Amitriptyline - I have not read enough yet or made a decision here. He cannot take that with the Mirtazapine / Mirataz ointment 2% w/w do to Serotonin syndrome being possible.


Water: THIS ONE IS WEIRD

This is kind weird. I use healthy mouth in their water. I opened a new one a couple a weeks ago. The kitties had been on a water bringe and I noticed they all started drinking a bit less. Mia, who left me Wednesday, in the height of Mia being sick she refused it, and once threw it up. I changed it out with normal water and she drank. The filtered water was the same I used for the healthy mouth. Right after that, none of the cats would drink it. They have been for years without issue and liked it. Maybe a coincidence, I don't know. I email the the manufacturer with the lot # to ask if the formula had changed, they said no. I emailed them back explaining the strange sudden reaction to it and on that - I have not heard back yet. Could be just a coincidence but I think it's worth noting.

There are two water fountains and 2 large bowls around the house.

He likes the water fountains - not the bowls.

What the Vet said:

There was mineralization and calcification "on" the kidneys. She was very clear about that and the debris in the bladder.

She would like to put him on anti-anxiety meds and have me feed him only the hydrolyzed protein.

Attached ultrasound report with some pictures.

I may be missing some things but I'll catch them as we go. There are some red flags to me that go beyond those two changes IMHO.

Any insight is appreciated.

 

[Furballsmom]

There was mineralization and calcification "on" the kidneys. She was very clear about that and the debris in the bladder.

Did the vet say whether; they've seen this before, they've never seen it before, do they have any idea what causes it, etc? Do they think this happened over a length of time, or suddenly?

Is it possible the quality, or lack thereof, of your community's water is having an ill effect? You said you're using filtered water though, so that's out. ... I'm not pointing a finger in any way, but about the product you're adding to the water, is he extra sensitive to it, or an ingredient in it, perhaps?

 

[FeebysOwner]

I can't offer much, and probably have more questions than anything else. I would like to start off with asking if there is a wet version of the dry food the vet wants him to eat exclusively, how she expects this particular food to help Charlie, and the reason for not allowing him to eat any other food - if these other foods are not posing an issue that you or anyone else can determine. The more moisture in his diet, the better. While prescription food can help to dissolve struvite crystals, moisture also helps to flush them out of the bladder.

To expound on something Furballsmom said - it sounds like he has had at least two ultrasounds? Were they compared? I ask this because the mineralization on/in his kidneys could be the result of things that occurred when he was younger, and if so, there should have been something mentioned to say this is a stable condition (meaning no change between ultrasounds). Feeby has some irregularities with her kidneys and ureters, which was determined to be 'old' as there were no changes seen from the first through her 3rd ultrasounds.

If Charlie does have pancreatitis, the primary treatment for that is usually to ensure your cat is eating well, and many cats get sub-Q fluids to help flush out their system. Some cats are also prescribed pain meds, so is that why your vet has prescribed Buprenorphine? I'd be careful with the amount of Bupe. My cat who weighs 12.5 pounds is only getting 0.1ml twice a day. However, the amount to give varies by a calculation that is used to determine what each cat should be receiving (Wt (in kg) X dose (in mg/kg) / drug strength (in mg/ml) = bupe in ml).

D-Mannose is a type of sugar molecule that many forms of bacteria adhere to and are therefore flushed out of the bladder with urination. It reduces the level of bacteria that can accumulate in the bladder, which can result in inflammation and infection.

I don't know anything about Grey Wolf Fibre Boost + GI, but I do know Forti Flora is a pretty weak probiotic and better serves as a flavor enhancer. So, if you are looking for a probiotic, I'd look further than Forti Flora.

Why is the vet prescribing Amitriptyline - due to what is deemed as cystitis? How does that interact, if at all, with Bupe? While the former is considered anti-anxiety it can also be used as a pain med, like Bupe. I'd also, as you said, get more information about the likelihood of serotonin syndrome if Amitriptyline is used with Mirataz.

 

[FeralHearts]

Thank you both for replying - I know that was a lot to read. I'm scared to miss anything that might be helpful.

Again this AM. He's was not himself. He seems to be taking Mia's death as well as I am which is to say he is not. He came to me this am, then went to her bed and slept - he doesn't do that but has been every morning since she's been gone for at least the first hour of the morning. Usually he wants his breakfast before anything else. He either looks totally depressed otr unwell - hard to say.

I'm surprised as I thought for sure her bonded sister would take it worse.

He did eat this morning though without aide - so there's something. He began having these issues when Mia started to get sick. He is an incredibly sensitive cat.

Did the vet say whether; they've seen this before, they've never seen it before, do they have any idea what causes it, etc? Do they think this happened over a length of time, or suddenly?

No she didn't and I didn't ask. I will.

From what my brain recalls it's likely do to the Idiopathic Cystitis.

Good question - I will ask that too if they think it was over time or suddenly.

Is it possible the quality, or lack thereof, of your community's water is having an ill effect? You said you're using filtered water though, so that's out. ... I'm not pointing a finger in any way, but about the product you're adding to the water, is he extra sensitive to it, or an ingredient in it, perhaps?

It's possible, filters don't catch everything.

He could have developed a sensitivity to the product I thought it was strange that all of them are having issues with not wanting it very suddenly.

Ingredients:
Healthy Mouth | Dog, Cat, Horse

I can't offer much, and probably have more questions than anything else. I would like to start off with asking if there is a wet version of the dry food the vet wants him to eat exclusively, how she expects this particular food to help Charlie, and the reason for not allowing him to eat any other food - if these other foods are not posing an issue that you or anyone else can determine. The more moisture in his diet, the better. While prescription food can help to dissolve struvite crystals, moisture also helps to flush them out of the bladder.

No sadly there is no HP version of the food in wet.

I'm in agreement about the wet food so I'm feeling like a rock and a hard place. Her thought process seems to be aimed at the fact he has the Idiopathic Cystitis and food sensitivities.

To expound on something Furballsmom said - it sounds like he has had at least two ultrasounds? Were they compared? I ask this because the mineralization on/in his kidneys could be the result of things that occurred when he was younger, and if so, there should have been something mentioned to say this is a stable condition (meaning no change between ultrasounds). Feeby has some irregularities with her kidneys and ureters, which was determined to be 'old' as there were no changes seen from the first through her 3rd ultrasounds.

There have been 3 ultrasounds for him now. One was aimed mostly at the heart though.

I fired one vet he had after they kept telling me his Asthma and Heart weren't to be worried about as he was young, didn't do bloodwork thought I repeatedly requested it - and the finally straw was two years running giving him a two year rabies shot even after they were told they gave him that the year before.

He went to another vet but the drive was too much for him but his current vet should have all three. I am sure I do and since two I know involve the tummy and bladder I will pull that up and see.

Perhaps I should do another one in a year to see as well.

If Charlie does have pancreatitis, the primary treatment for that is usually to ensure your cat is eating well, and many cats get sub-Q fluids to help flush out their system. Some cats are also prescribed pain meds, so is that why your vet has prescribed Buprenorphine? I'd be careful with the amount of Bupe. My cat who weighs 12.5 pounds is only getting 0.1ml twice a day. However, the amount to give varies by a calculation that is used to determine what each cat should be receiving (Wt (in kg) X dose (in mg/kg) / drug strength (in mg/ml) = bupe in ml).

Yes the fPLI test came back positive, but the ultrasound shows it fine. So it's possible it was an attack and nothing something chronic maybe.

She did prescribe the Buprenorphine for pain as when I picked him up the other day he lowly growled at me. Charlie is about 16 pounds and not overweight. He's a long cat with really long legs.

D-Mannose is a type of sugar molecule that many forms of bacteria adhere to and are therefore flushed out of the bladder with urination. It reduces the level of bacteria that can accumulate in the bladder, which can result in inflammation and infection.

Yes, I wonder if I have the wrong kind. My friend works in pharmacy and we looked at both the human and and pet version and they were the same - other than amounts given. he pet version was not available at the time.

This one: UTI Slip D-Mannose Powder 65g Jar apposed to UTIPets Pure D-Mannose Powder

Did we miss something I wonder.

I don't know anything about Grey Wolf Fibre Boost + GI, but I do know Forti Flora is a pretty weak probiotic and better serves as a flavor enhancer. So, if you are looking for a probiotic, I'd look further than Forti Flora.

Grey Wolf Fibre Boost + GI is good but the issue is he requires a lot of it and with him having such a particular issue and relationship to food / smells etc. it was hard to get it into him. With the appetite stimulate - he didn't care he was so hungry.

GI Portfolio - Grey Wolf for Veterinary Professionals

She wanted him to have more fibre along with a pro and prebiotic.

Why is the vet prescribing Amitriptyline - due to what is deemed as cystitis? How does that interact, if at all, with Bupe? While the former is considered anti-anxiety it can also be used as a pain med, like Bupe. I'd also, as you said, get more information about the likelihood of serotonin syndrome if Amitriptyline is used with Mirataz.

The Amitriptyline was due to his disposition as he gets stressed easy which is why if I get upset - I have to leave the house or go hide in the basement. He and Braveheart have issues as they both want to be dominate. She will scream at him if he's even within 6 feet of her.

If I take him to the vet I have to give him gabapentin as he will breath open mouth, drool and his heart rate goes up. Almost panic like.

I can post the information / drug sheet about Amitriptyline with Mirataz and serotonin syndrome. It's a risk and I think with the other issues they are trying to reduce that risk. We haven't decided on the Amitriptyline yet as I want to think and really make sure I want to do that to him as it's one of those things you would have to slowly wean them off of if you needed to stop.

 

[FeralHearts]

So this ultrasound was in 2018 Nov 3 by the looks of it. I hate it when people write dates as no one writes them the same!

I am looking at the drug sheet but as it comes from a Vet Practises paid program I don't think I can share it publicly. I'll see if I can find something online that I can share that is similar enough.

At least one question is answered.

So it appears this is not new. He has snuck a bit of food prior to this and we were aware. So that sucked as looking at the stomach was hard.

2018 ULTRASOUND REPORT

"History
Consult Type: US, SIG: DOB: 20121102, Age: 6 Y, Sex: M ALTERED, Wt: 6.2kg, Breed: Siamese Mix,
Species: FELINE, Images: 86, Case Details: Marked hematuria. No obvious calc on xray. E.coli positive in
urine. C+S results, received day of ultrasound, state that it is sensitive to everything. Ultrasound also for GI
as there is a history of constipation and abdo discomfort - suspect primary enteropathy as a cause.

An abdominal ultrasound study is reviewed.
ABDOMEN US: In the urinary bladder there is some mobile echogenic debris, and some of this is adherent
to the apical ventral wall of the bladder and slowly dissipates over the course of the study. No bladder
stones are seen. The left kidney (4 cm) and right kidney (4.3 cm) have a few fine echogenic reflective
interfaces along the diverticuli. The stomach, duodenum, jejunum and ileocolic junction appear normal.
There is some fluid ingesta in the GI tract without distension, and a few parallel echogenic interfaces in the
stomach that may be parasitic worms or mucus. The liver, gallbladder, spleen, pancreas, and mesentery
appear normal.
Findings

Conclusion
1. Mobile echoes in the urine.
(a) Differentials include blood, mucus and fat, or active sediment.
(b) An underlying cause for bacterial cystitis is not identified. Specifically no stones or mass lesion
identified.
2. Few fine reflective interfaces along the renal diverticuli.
(a) Differentials include normal interarcuate arteries or renal pelvic mineralizations; both are benign an
incidental.
3. Nonspecific GI content without obstruction resembles normal ingesta.
(a) There may be primary GI disease that ultrasound does not appreciate. If the patient has been
appropriately fasted (12-18 hours) then there may be some delayed gastric emptying. Possible differentials
for the clinically suspected primary GI disease include IBD, food sensitivity, infection (parasitic worms,
bacterial imbalance) or a combination of these.

1. Mobile echoes in the urine.
(a) Differentials include blood, mucus and fat, or active sediment.
(b) An underlying cause for bacterial cystitis is not identified. Specifically no stones or mass lesion
identified.
2. Few fine reflective interfaces along the renal diverticuli.
(a) Differentials include normal interarcuate arteries or renal pelvic mineralizations; both are benign an
incidental.
3. Nonspecific GI content without obstruction resembles normal ingesta.
(a) There may be primary GI disease that ultrasound does not appreciate. If the patient has been
appropriately fasted (12-18 hours) then there may be some delayed gastric emptying. Possible differentials
for the clinically suspected primary GI disease include IBD, food sensitivity, infection (parasitic worms,
bacterial imbalance) or a combination of these."

 

[Furballsmom]

I hate it when people write dates as no one writes them the same!

I know, right!?

 

[FeebysOwner]

Thanks for the additional information! Based on the assumption that these ultrasounds were done by different institutions, I am speculating that similar findings about his kidneys were present with the 2018 one. Very similar wording in some respects, from my layperson's viewpoint. Too bad there was not a request to compare ultrasounds...

Re: the D-Mannose - there is nothing different between those two products that you shared links about. I use the same brand and give Feeby 1/4 tsp daily. However, there are bacteria, based on their composition, that do not adhere to this product, so they could remain in the bladder and possibly colonize. That is when, IMO, extra moisture to help flush out the bladder is still an essential component.

Idiopathic cystitis does not have to involve crystals, and often does not. Most urinary care foods are for that purpose. To change the PH so that it is better balanced and to make the bladder environment more hostile to crystal development. They seem to be more geared toward FLUTD than to FIC. But that is a call you will have to make, and maybe press your vet to explain why this diet - for the purposes of cystitis - is the best route. Along with that, for your vet to explain the downside of the wet foods that he currently likes. I appreciate the hydrolyzed portion of the diet for helping with allergens/digestive tract issues. I would think that might accomplished by other means.

All of this is solely for the purpose of giving you other things to consider in how you want to treat Charlie, and what you might want to discuss with your vet. I am not recommending anything for any other reason.

 

[FeralHearts]

Thanks for the additional information! Based on the assumption that these ultrasounds were done by different institutions, I am speculating that similar findings about his kidneys were present with the 2018 one. Very similar wording in some respects, from my layperson's viewpoint. Too bad there was not a request to compare ultrasounds...

I had that same thought.

I didn't think to ask to compare as they have all his records and made the error of assuming they automatically would as that would be reasonable given his history. Especially since they are a good practice. They have gotten far too busy due to covid and are in the midst of change so somethings I'm sure would fall away until they get their footing again. Sadly the same thing happens in people places too.

I have to remind them every time of everything though. I think I'll make them a cheat sheet for each of the kitties. They can't possibly commit all their furballs to memory.

Re: the D-Mannose - there is nothing different between those two products that you shared links about. I use the same brand and give Feeby 1/4 tsp daily. However, there are bacteria, based on their composition, that do not adhere to this product, so they could remain in the bladder and possibly colonize. That is when, IMO, extra moisture to help flush out the bladder is still an essential component.

Idiopathic cystitis does not have to involve crystals, and often does not. Most urinary care foods are for that purpose. To change the PH so that it is better balanced and to make the bladder environment more hostile to crystal development. They seem to be more geared toward FLUTD than to FIC. But that is a call you will have to make, and maybe press your vet to explain why this diet - for the purposes of cystitis - is the best route. Along with that, for your vet to explain the downside of the wet foods that he currently likes. I appreciate the hydrolyzed portion of the diet for helping with allergens/digestive tract issues. I would think that might accomplished by other means.

Good to know about the D'manose I was worried ofr a second I was making him worse.

That's what I've read to - moisture is important for cats like ours. So it's a bit scary to put him on all dry food.

I will ask the vet for sure. I might email them as I'm not up to talking to people right now to be honest. Seeing people is hard to. Work is a challenge to keep it together. So email is probably the best route right now.

Do you happen to understand at all what Mineralization on/in Kidneys and Calcium on/in Kidneys actually means for him. Every I read is a different meaning. The one that frightened me was CKD looking back on the 2018 US report though I would think if it was horrible we would have seen an issue long before no though. I will ask the vet as well.

All of this is solely for the purpose of giving you other things to consider in how you want to treat Charlie, and what you might want to discuss with your vet. I am not recommending anything for any other reason.

I understand. I rarely do anything without showing them or talking to them unless there is a really good reason.

Other peoples experiences / opinions help as I can g o back to the doctor with other options they may not have considered. We can't think of everything. EG: When Mia first stopped eating I read here about A/D urgent care. Had I not read that I wouldn't have know to ask. When I asked the vet about it was like a lightbulb went off for her and she was like "Yes! Good idea!"

Like when I fought to get a specific dental specialist for two of the girls tooth repairs. They kept trying to send me to someone they knew, which I valued the opinion as I'm sure the other specialist was good - but I wanted someone else and I'm glad I was able to have him.

Thank you both for everything. I feel better prepared to ask the right questions now instead of feeling in the dark.

Edit : And yes the ultrasounds were from two different places.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Do you happen to understand at all what Mineralization on/in Kidneys and Calcium on/in Kidneys actually means for him. Every I read is a different meaning. The one that frightened me was CKD looking back on the 2018 US report though I would think if it was horrible we would have seen an issue long before no though.

Can't really answer that. I just know the 'damage' to Feeby's kidneys were not viewed as the cause of her CKD, but rather as a side issue. Maybe that is a question to pose to your vet(s).

 

[FeralHearts]

Can't really answer that. I just know the 'damage' to Feeby's kidneys were not viewed as the cause of her CKD, but rather as a side issue. Maybe that is a question to pose to your vet(s).

Thanks and completely understandable.

I will directly ask his vet.

 

[FeralHearts]

So I have a bit of an update that I got Monday - Not all the questions were answered but one of the main one was. I started to cry so yeah there's that.

Charlies Doc is gone for the week but the practise owner was kind enough to call so I didn't have to wait. Super nice man and like all the docs and folks there - very smart. The reason for the change in food is to attempt to dissolve the crystals in the Kidneys. From what I understand oxalate crystals won't dissolve but any of the others should dissolve on the diet. Problem being they can't ID what type they are so it's a try and see deal.

I didn't get the answers about the anxiety meds, probably because when I mentioned 4 cats when asked about food - I broke - because it's only the three now and was trying to hold back tears to focus. I still haven't quite accepted Mia's loss. I don't think I ever will.

I did include a copy of the original ultrasound form 2018 and wrote in the email about comparing them. The Doc said he didn't see an attachment.

I asked about another wet food as I'm aware HP doesn't come in wet and he was going to have a staff member look. She called yesterday and said no HP SO wet food.... which I already knew and they were going to look around for other options. I guess the assignment wasn't understood or maybe I wasn't clear on what I was looking for but I thought I was.

Here's the question: I would think if I can avoid chicken and get a good SO wet food that he will actually eat it will serve the purpose for his Kidneys - or is my thinking completely wrong and have gone brian dead? There is no HP SO food but if ew are doing this for crystals I would think a non chicken really good SO food would be the right call.

He's still being picky about food and eating weird too so there's that too.

 

[FeebysOwner]

This article (see link below) is a lengthy document on struvite and oxalate crystals, so if you don't want to read it all, I have also attached two charts included in the data that reflects some foods that are used for one or the other or both. I am going to guess most of these foods are chicken based, but maybe they will lead you to similar ones that aren't chicken. While oxalate stones won't dissolve with diet, the development of new ones can be hindered.

You might want to peruse through the article though as it talks about possible ways to try to identify what type of crystals Charlie has.
Feline Struvite and Calcium Oxalate Urolithiasis | Today's Veterinary Practice (todaysveterinarypractice.com)

 

[FeralHearts]

Thank you - I do want to read it all. I read it once so far and I can't say aI understand it fully so I will keep re-reading. Sometimes thee things take a few passes to fully get it.

I appreciate it.

 

[Furballsmom]

There's something like this, just as a thought--it does still have chicken products in it though;
Amazon.com

 

[FeralHearts]

There's something like this, just as a thought--it does still has chicken products in it though;
Amazon.com

Thank you :-)

That is the rub isn't it? Everything has chicken in it as it's a cheap protein. Part of me wonders if he has that sensitivity or it was just the wellness? I've read many people having issues with their cats on wellness and others have been fine.

I tired one with Turkey in it and there was no reaction from him but if I fed the girls Wellness and he stole some - within a few days he would react.

I remember when you guys went down this road with me and Charlie and the foods years back. Everywhere you look.. chicken chicken chicken lol

Now I read labels I get excited as it looks okay and then somewhere on the label "chicken" and I look and say to myself "Freakin' chicken".

With him being some sniff sensitive and picky - oh boy such fun.

I might cheat though and give him some mitz before trying a new food and see if his hunger overcomes his smell. It's something I've consider as a way to cheat.

 

[Furballsmom]

I forget, I apologize, but have you utilized fortiflora sprinkled on as a topper? Oh, never mind, you said you did, Forti Flora SA? What about trying the regular fortiflora product?

Also, I checked with my vet about the Healthy Mouth product, just to let you know, they wouldn't recommend using it due to the yucca and the clove.

 

[FeralHearts]

I forget, I apologize, but have you utilized fortiflora sprinkled on as a topper? Oh, never mind, you said you did, Forti Flora SA? What about trying the regular fortiflora product?

No worries - it's a lot.

I have. It's hit and miss. Mostly miss sadly. Regular Forti Flora was a while back. The Forti Flora SA is new ... he's taken to that slightly better than other things but still is displeased with me.

I envy people whose cats seem to be so happy with their meals... mine never seem to be. What they like the last two days they then go off of it for weeks.

Also, I checked with my vet about the Healthy Mouth product, just to let you know, they wouldn't recommend using it due to the yucca and the clove.

Thank you for going to that trouble. I just looked those two ingredients up and went "WHY!" Why do "authorities" and places supposed to be "authorities" on such things allow toxic stuff into their food and things they know they either can't digest or are poisonous?

 

[Furballsmom]

It's never any trouble for you