Managing arthritis in a cat with high blood pressure

[feralvr]

But yes - I think I'm going to put Gary and I on a turmeric supplement!!! :nod:

Yep - we take the turmeric also. In fact, I sprinkle a little of my capsule into my coffee in the morning :lol3: Gives it a little "zing" Wonderful supplement

 

[ldg]

OK! We were at the vet for her follow-up BP. It's a healthy normal now, not low like at the February follow-up. So we're to keep her at this dose of Norvasc.

We talked about what to do about her arthritis (this was a visit with a different vet). First of all, she said she's not aware of glucosamine or chrondroitin being contra-indicated for high blood pressure. BUT... as Flowerbelle is not displaying any signs of pain (no reduced jumping, no reduced activity), she wouldn't suggest using it. Studies indicate it provides no value in preventing problems. She does see benefits in pets that exhibit signs of pain, but many cats apparently often have arthritis, but it doesn't seem to cause them pain (again, as measured by reduced activity or reduced jumping). It's usually found when they're being x-rayed for something else (as was the case with Flowerbelle LOL). So keep a close eye on her, and if she exhibits any of the symptoms, we revisit what to do.

I should DEFINITELY not give her turmeric. It is a blood thinner, but because the cause of high blood pressure in cats is NOT hardening/thickening of the arteries (cholesterol doesn't work the same way in cats), treating high BP with blood thinning just makes the heart work harder, and can cause problems with blood clotting.

In fact, this take on arthritis was just written about by a vet blogging on Catster:

First, let's cover the lucky individuals: Many cats with arthritis suffer no significant symptoms and require no treatment. An elderly cat may come to my office for vomiting, and X-rays will show significant arthritis in the hips. If the cat is not showing symptoms or pain, then no treatment is recommended. In my experience, the majority of cats with arthritis fall into this category.

http://www.catster.com/lifestyle/arthritis-and-cats-drugs-pain

So... for now, we're going to let it be. :heart2: :cross:

 

[otto]

I'm not going to argue about Flowerbelle's treatments, but I have to disagree that just because a cat is not showing symptoms of pain, does not mean the cat does not feel any pain. We all know that cats are the masters of hiding pain, until the pain becomes so severe the cat can no longer hide it.

She does see benefits in pets that exhibit signs of pain, but many cats apparently often have arthritis, but it doesn't seem to cause them pain (again, as measured by reduced activity or reduced jumping)

That just doesn't sit well with me. If the x rays show arthritis, then the cat is most likely feeling it, in some way. Cats do process pain differently from humans, and they have a higher threshold, or more endorphins, or something like that. But. Just because they aren't showing it, does not mean they aren't feeling it.

Again, I am not questioning Flowerbelle's treatments. Just the comments associated with cats and pain, in general.

 

[carolina]

I'm not going to argue about Flowerbelle's treatments, but I have to disagree that just because a cat is not showing symptoms of pain, does not mean the cat does not feel any pain. We all know that cats are the masters of hiding pain, until the pain becomes so severe the cat can no longer hide it.

She does see benefits in pets that exhibit signs of pain, but many cats apparently often have arthritis, but it doesn't seem to cause them pain (again, as measured by reduced activity or reduced jumping)

That just doesn't sit well with me. If the x rays show arthritis, then the cat is most likely feeling it, in some way. Cats do process pain differently from humans, and they have a higher threshold, or more endorphins, or something like that. But. Just because they aren't showing it, does not mean they aren't feeling it.
Again, I am not questioning Flowerbelle's treatments. Just the comments associated with cats and pain, in general.

Good point..... however.... Question otto:
not disagreeing with your disagreeing :lol3:, but: if she is not displaying signs of pain - and this signs being measured as reduced activity and jumping, etc..... Would't you think twice before giving a supplement that can pottentially aggravate her blood pressure issue (issue that she definitely has)?
Note - she **might** or might not be in pain at all.... but she definitely has high blood pressure and a heart murmur.....
So.... Which of the lesser of the evils would choose?

I know that we can't know for certain when our kitties are in pain.... But I have to believe I know my kitties quite well at this point.... I can see the slightest changes in their behaviors to know when something is wrong, and when they are in pain.... I might not know where it hurts, what hurts, but I know something is wrong - I can read them pretty well....
They try to hide it, but I try harder to find it.... I am sure you can relate to that.... as can Laurie to little Flowerbelle who eats on the coutertop every day :lol3:
An arthritic cat that is in pain might not cry out loud, but won't just jump up and down for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day, just because :dk:

 

[otto]

Good point..... however.... Question otto:
not disagreeing with your disagreeing :lol3:, but: if she is not displaying signs of pain - and this signs being measured as reduced activity and jumping, etc..... Would't you think twice before giving a supplement that can pottentially aggravate her blood pressure issue (issue that she definitely has)?
Note - she **might** or might not be in pain at all.... but she definitely has high blood pressure and a heart murmur.....
So.... Which of the lesser of the evils would choose?
I know that we can't know for certain when our kitties are in pain.... But I have to believe I know my kitties quite well at this point.... I can see the slightest changes in their behaviors to know when something is wrong, and when they are in pain.... I might not know where it hurts, what hurts, but I know something is wrong - I can read them pretty well....
They try to hide it, but I try harder to find it.... I am sure you can relate to that.... as can Laurie to little Flowerbelle who eats on the coutertop every day :lol3:
An arthritic cat that is in pain might not cry out loud, but won't just jump up and down for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day, just because :dk:

I, too, have a cat who eats up high, not on the counter, but on my kitchen table, the same table I eat at.

Like I said, I wasn't questioning the treatment decisions for Flowerbelle. I just don't believe that "lack of symptoms" means absence of pain. From experience I know, that no matter how closely we watch them, they can hide illness from us.

My Tolly was playing right up until the day before I sent him to the Bridge. But there is no doubt in my mind that he was feeling at least some discomfort. When Tolly was about 5 he had his first resportive lesions. He got check ups twice a year. I am positive no one could watch a cat more closely than I watched my boy, from the day his seizures started when he was 3 years old. But I did not know he had this terribly painful mouth disease until his 6 month check up.

Ootay played and made incredible horizontal and vertical leaps, even in her last year when she was nearly crippled with arthritis pain.

Ootay had high blood pressure in her final year, (also a heart murmur, among many other disorders and diseases) and she had already been taking cosequin for arthritis for many years. Up until this thread, I had never heard of glucosamine being contraindicated in cats with high blood pressure, and Laurie did state the Flowebelle's vet does not think it is.

Ootay was unable to take the norvasc at all, it gave her fainting spells, so her HBP went unchecked.

You ask what choice I would make, but....it is not so cut and dried, making that kind of decision. These kind of decisions just have too many factors and have to be taken on a case by case basis. But, I guess my answer is this: In general, if I thought my cat might be helped by taking the glucosamine, and her HBP was already being controlled by norvasc, I would probably opt to put her on the cosequin, and have her BP checked regularly. In the meantime, I would, as Laurie is doing, continue to look for other options.

I would watch closely to see if the cosequin seemed to be making any difference. If it did seem to improve quality of life, even if the BP went up, I then would have to decide whether to increase the norvasc or cut out the cosequin. But, it would just depend, on that specific cat, at that specific time.

However, I repeat, that I am NOT saying that I think that this is what Laurie should do for Flowerbelle. She knows Flowerbelle better than anyone else, and I have complete trust and faith in any decision Laurie makes for HER cats.

 

[carolina]

I, too, have a cat who eats up high, not on the counter, but on my kitchen table, the same table I eat at.
Like I said, I wasn't questioning the treatment decisions for Flowerbelle. I just don't believe that "lack of symptoms" means absence of pain. From experience I know, that no matter how closely we watch them, they can hide illness from us.
My Tolly was playing right up until the day before I sent him to the Bridge. But there is no doubt in my mind that he was feeling at least some discomfort. When Tolly was about 5 he had his first resportive lesions. He got check ups twice a year. I am positive no one could watch a cat more closely than I watched my boy, from the day his seizures started when he was 3 years old. But I did not know he had this terribly painful mouth disease until his 6 month check up.
Ootay played and made incredible horizontal and vertical leaps, even in her last year when she was nearly crippled with arthritis pain.
Ootay had high blood pressure in her final year, (also a heart murmur, among many other disorders and diseases) and she had already been taking cosequin for arthritis for many years. Up until this thread, I had never heard of glucosamine being contraindicated in cats with high blood pressure, and Laurie did state the Flowebelle's vet does not think it is.
Ootay was unable to take the norvasc at all, it gave her fainting spells, so her HBP went unchecked.
You ask what choice I would make, but....it is not so cut and dried, making that kind of decision. These kind of decisions just have too many factors and have to be taken on a case by case basis. But, I guess my answer is this: In general, if I thought my cat might be helped by taking the glucosamine, and her HBP was already being controlled by norvasc, I would probably opt to put her on the cosequin, and have her BP checked regularly. In the meantime, I would, as Laurie is doing, continue to look for other options.
I would watch closely to see if the cosequin seemed to be making any difference. If it did seem to improve quality of life, even if the BP went up, I then would have to decide whether to increase the norvasc or cut out the cosequin. But, it would just depend, on that specific cat, at that specific time.
However, I repeat, that I am NOT saying that I think that this is what Laurie should do for Flowerbelle. She knows Flowerbelle better than anyone else, and I have complete trust and faith in any decision Laurie makes for HER cats.

All very good points otto.....
It is not cut and dry..... It is a matter of balancing the act for sure..... Definitely lots to think about.... :nod:
I guess you do have a point in trying the cosequin and keeping an eye on her BP.... if it remains stable, she might have the best of both Worlds :nod:
Why those little ones don't talk, huh? They would make our lives THAT much easier (although I have a feeling Lucky would drive me up the wall insane )

 

[ldg]

I'm not going to argue about Flowerbelle's treatments, but I have to disagree that just because a cat is not showing symptoms of pain, does not mean the cat does not feel any pain. We all know that cats are the masters of hiding pain, until the pain becomes so severe the cat can no longer hide it.

Oh absolutely! I'm glad you brought this up. We definitely discussed this. :nod: Cats are absolutely masters at hiding pain and discomfort, but our conversation was in the context of me knowing this already. I might have made it sound too simplistic.

...and thanks for the vote of confidence.

As to the Glucosamine contra-indications:

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/glucosamine-000306.htm

Glucosamine may raise blood pressure and cholesterol levels. See your doctor regularly to have these levels checked while you are taking glucosamine.

There is some concern that glucosamine may increase exacerbations in some patients with asthma.

Chrondroitin: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chondroitin-sulfate/NS_patient-chondroitin/DSECTION=safety

Side Effects and Warnings

Chondroitin sulfate appears to be well tolerated for up to three years.

Adverse effects that have been rarely reported or are theoretical include: headache, motor uneasiness, euphoria, hives, rash, photosensitivity, hair loss, breathing difficulties, subjective tightness in the throat or chest, exacerbation of previously well-controlled asthma, chest pain, elevated blood pressure, lower extremity edema, gastrointestinal pain/dyspepsia, nausea, diarrhea, constipation, transaminitis, increased risk of bleeding (theoretical), bone marrow suppression (animal research), and eyelid edema.

Whether or not someone should consider glucosamine & chrondroitin in a kitty with asthma and high blood pressure is definitely something the vet and that person should decide on a case-by-case basis. :nod:

I am supplementing her with salmon oil (omega 3). We may consider other supplements at some point. But given the contra-indications, and the consideration that I would have no way to evaluate whether or not they're helping her, for now we're going to skip the Cosequin. :nod: