making a cat a vegan vs. processed food vs. raw

[mschauer]

weruva being manufactured in thailand gave me pause at first, but i liked the way the food looked so i asked more questions.  apparently the family has been in tuna fishing for at least two generations and they have a strong connection with someone related to the factory.  it's not cheaper labor or cheaper ingredients.  (so they say, anyway.  anyone can lie, but not 100% of people you talk to so i'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now.)  even though it's FDA inspected, i don't have all that much faith in the FDA for human food, so that doesn't mean a lot to me.  but thailand is not china, so as far as that goes, i won't mistrust them on that basis alone, considering how many good aspects there are to the food.  (i still reserve the right to change my mind later if i find out something different.)  but the fact that i can see strips of meat in the paw lickin' chicken tells me that it's true they don't use by-products.  food that's ground into a pate is what i'm not crazy about, i don't care how good something says it is.

Something that really bugs me about the Weruva products is that you pay an awful lot for a product with chicken breast as the only real ingredient. Most of the nutrients come from added supplements. This is one of the reasons I'm not opposed to by-products at least in concept. They can include some very nutritious things like organs. Liver in particular is a rich source of vitamins in their natural form. With Weruva products those vitamins come from a bottle. 

I'm thinking about trying to come up with a recipe for a homemade, cooked cat food that would look a lot like Weruva Paw Lickin Chicken. I would add liver though. It should be pretty simple to do. 

 

[kittylover23]

[quote name="mschauer" url="/t/246485/making-a-cat-a-vegan-vs-processed-food-vs-raw#]
I'm thinking about trying to come up with a recipe for a homemade, cooked cat food that would look a lot like Weruva Paw Lickin Chicken. I would add liver though. It should be pretty simple to do. 
[/quote]

I think this is a great idea.

 

[cinderflower]

And that's the truth! You are, and there's no reason to feel bad about that.

And no one is perfect, nothing is perfect, and WHAT a boring world this would be if it were perfect.

thank you for the spreadsheet.  i looked yesterday and couldn't find it.  then again that really doesn't mean anything because i can stare at something i'm looking right at and swear i can't find it.  maybe i'm the one who needs more protein (i'd like to use that excuse, but i just had a CBC and it's so impressive my doctor is showing my chart to other residents lol.  or maybe he's just easily impressed.  nah, i think it's "in light of" certain other considerations).

anyway, i will read it tomorrow because i've sat in doctor's offices and read all day.  i'm just a little curious though, why is friskies better than 9 lives?  i've bought both before and if my budget depended on it, my cats would starve because they won't eat it.  well, that's a lie, the last time i bought it was probably 14 years ago and diotima is the only cat from then who wouldn't eat it, and she's not picky.  she never tries to cover stuff she doesn't like, she just walks off lol.  as far as dry, like i said, there have been times i had to feed my cats what someone else was willing to go the store and buy for me.  i always wrote down what i wanted, but i couldn't always get someone to go to a pet supply store.  they looked at me like i'm such a demanding twit when they brought back iams from the grocery store LOL.  they thought they were really doing good and i was just unappreciative so i started just being really nice no matter what they brought because after all, they really didn't have to go.  iams, whiskas, nutro, natural this, natural that, blue buffalo freedom grain free, science diet, i've pretty much run the gamut but other than when i was laid up and they had to eat 100% dry, i've always fed probably 70:30, depending on what time frame.  sometimes it was 90:10.  i think the only thing i've never been forced to feed my cats was the rancid store brands that sat in open barrels and drew mice.  i was in the pet food aisle at the store once getting kitty litter and a mouse ran across my foot.  maybe i just should have taken the cats with me lol.

i don't want to say my mind is made up, but rad cat (raw, free-range organic) is .50 an oz.. and so is tiki cat.  i can get weruva for .29 an ounce and hound & gatos or b.f.f. is even less than that.  i got the last case of rabbit from pet's paradise today, but i order everything else from doggiefood.com because they have the best prices of anywhere.  they carry some raw but i think it's all freeze-dried.  pp is sending more samples of radcat with my delivery tomorrow.  and i'm glad i can feed raw just sometimes and not have to be 100%.  that way i can go veeeeery slowly.

Something that really bugs me about the Weruva products is that you pay an awful lot for a product with chicken breast as the only real ingredient. Most of the nutrients come from added supplements. This is one of the reasons I'm not opposed to by-products at least in concept. They can include some very nutritious things like organs. Liver in particular is a rich source of vitamins in their natural form. With Weruva products those vitamins come from a bottle. 

I'm thinking about trying to come up with a recipe for a homemade, cooked cat food that would look a lot like Weruva Paw Lickin Chicken. I would add liver though. It should be pretty simple to do. 

i know.  i'm aware of their failings as well as their good points, they just seem best out of all of my choices (and that's really not saying much LOL), but it's temporary too.  i'm irritated that a great deal of the canned food that's expensive also has questionable ingredients no matter what they say because if you don't know what to ask, they don't volunteer information.  i really hate that.  in a way, weruva and hound & gatos have been almost too accommodating, which might be why the other lady doesn't trust them.  i'm a skeptical person, but occasionally i am just too tired and take things at face value for a few minutes.   anything i say about canned cat food is relative and topical, and extremely nebulous.

i think making your own recipe for cooked homemade food is awesome.  and, i don't know if you're up for it, but you could even can it (not cans, mason jars).  i mean my grandmother was epic at doing it.  i never learned how LOL.  (i also never learned how to make gefilte fish but she would buy live carp and feed them in a galvanized tub for three days to clean them out . . .which i thought was insane because all it ends up being is fish SPAM lol)  so i know how to cook, but one of my concerns is that cooking does remove a lot of the nutrients and if you can keep it in the food as it came, it's always preferable to bottled supplements.  the meat will be raw at some point anyway (in my kitchen) so cooking it would actually just mean handling it more, for me.  and in the event that my cats will actually  eat raw, i think that for the labor involved in trying to procure free-range organic meat, the pre-made would be fine.  unless i find out bad things about radfoods, because i intend to do at least as much research on them as i did on the others.  more, actually, because at least i know that the canned probably has enough taurine and proper vitamins, etc. but i think it's easier to mess up with raw.  maybe.  i don't know.  i'm talking out my butt right now, i don't know what i'm saying

  if you are concerned about bacteria or other foodborne contaminants, then i'd cook it too.  that's one of the main reasons i didn't want grocery store meat.  although the more i read about cats digestive systems, they can certainly handle a much heavier bacterial load than people can.  if cats in wild eat fresh meat they killed on the ground, hours after it's dead. sometimes days, surely they're equipped with extra-strong hydrochloric acid in their digestive tracts (or whatever breaks it down).  i just want to handle it as little as possible if i have to at all.

 

[mschauer]

I find freezing works just fine. But canning is certainly an option.

...so i know how to cook, but one of my concerns is that cooking does remove a lot of the nutrients

Sure, some nutrients would still have to be added as supplements but the intent is to have as many nutrients as possible come from meat based ingredients, not bottles. You might be surprised

at how many nutrients remain after cooking.

...because at least i know that the canned probably has enough taurine and proper vitamins, etc. but i think it's easier to mess up with raw.  maybe.  i don't know.

"Messing up" the nutrient profile is one of the main concerns of people considering making homemade food. While it is certainly true that you have to know what you are doing, it really

isn't all that hard. Nutrient profiles for the ingredients the home cat food maker would use are freely available from the USDA. The AAFCO recommended nutrient profile is also freely

available. Anything the homemade profile is lacking when compared to the AAFCO profile can be added via supplements. It takes a little work to pull all the information together but

once you've done it once repeating or making small changes isn't difficult.

if you are concerned about bacteria or other foodborne contaminants, then i'd cook it too.

I've been feeding a raw, homemade diet for about 5 years so, no, those things don't concern me. But I've long thought that the major problem with commercial processed foods isn't the quality of the

ingredients. It's the *processing*. Home prepared food isn't subjected to the heavy processing needed to create a shelf stable product.

 

[cinderflower]

I find freezing works just fine. But canning is certainly an option.

i guess it's an either/or thing.  i have plenty of room because i don't have very much frozen stuff, and i don't really know how to can.  i used to cook a lot, but for one person, it's not so easy so i "prepare" food rather than cook dinners.  (cut it up lol.)

Sure, some nutrients would still have to be added as supplements but the intent is to have as many nutrients as possible come from meat based ingredients, not bottles. You might be surprised

at how many nutrients remain after cooking.

you know, i'm sure they do.  i rarely take supplements.  i do take fossamax and calcium+D but that's something i can't get around.   but as far as not eating processed food, i still cook my food and the only thing i've ever been deficient in is iron and b12.   i just get things stuck in my head like not peeling a lot of my vegetables (you get more vitamins and you also get more pesticides--doomed.

) (not really)  but so many people have been eating this way for years and they're fine.  maybe not optimal, maybe it doesn't make that much difference.  i get in habits where i just do things regarding food that i decided were a good idea a long time ago and i have no idea if it's really necessary or not.

"Messing up" the nutrient profile is one of the main concerns of people considering making homemade food. While it is certainly true that you have to know what you are doing, it really

isn't all that hard. Nutrient profiles for the ingredients the home cat food maker would use are freely available from the USDA. The AAFCO recommended nutrient profile is also freely

available. Anything the homemade profile is lacking when compared to the AAFCO profile can be added via supplements. It takes a little work to pull all the information together but

once you've done it once repeating or making small changes isn't difficult.

i'm sure it doesn't.  i'm lazy.  and i'm lazy about stupid things LOL. 

I've been feeding a raw, homemade diet for about 5 years so, no, those things don't concern me. But I've long thought that the major problem with commercial processed foods isn't the quality of the

ingredients. It's the *processing*. Home prepared food isn't subjected to the heavy processing needed to create a shelf stable product.

do you get free-range organic or do you just buy it at the store?  did you buy a grinder?  if i cooked it, i would use grocery store meat simply because any super-dooper bacteria that factory farming has bred would be killed by cooking.  if it didn't, a lot more people would already be dead from ultra-salmonella.  the additives and antibiotics would still be in it, but that's already in most cat food.

i have issues with the ingredients and the preparation process.  some of the ingredients don't bother me.  but the denaturing process, which is pretty mandatory considering what they use, can't be good for any living thing.  best case scenario: let's say that it's a relatively conscientious plant that doesn't use anything containing companion animals.  i bet there isn't one kind of food (other than the new companies that have sprung up) that doesn't use material from the rendering process.  it's just business, it has nothing to do with nutrition.  rendered products go into a lot of human food, you just won't see it on the label.  (the way they do it is legal, but i don't consider it ethical) or if you do see it, "rendering" was originally an innocuous term.  people rendered hogs for lard, they didn't render all their garbage and put lots of catsup on it so they could eat it for dinner lol.  then they're going to add tons more preservatives to increase shelf-life, plus BPA (unless you find one like weruva that doesn't), so i end up paying tons more money for something i could make at home that's superior.  i'm ashamed of myself for not thinking of this before because i've only been really thinking about cat food for the last couple of months.  i've had passing thoughts (like, "oh i should do this.  what's for dinner? " lol) but i never examined pet food with any scrutiny.

 

[mschauer]

do you get free-range organic or do you just buy it at the store?  did you buy a grinder?  if i cooked it, i would use grocery store meat simply because any super-dooper bacteria that factory farming has bred would be killed by cooking.  if it didn't, a lot more people would already be dead from ultra-salmonella.  the additives and antibiotics would still be in it, but that's already in most cat food.

I use organic chicken but free-range meats are just too expensive. I have a grinder. 

i have issues with the ingredients  and  the preparation process.  some of the ingredients don't bother me.  but the denaturing process, which is pretty mandatory considering what they use, can't be good for any living thing.

That's a good point. In some cases the heavy processing that I don't like is necessary because of the low quality of the ingredients.

 

[orientalslave]

I use organic chicken but free-range meats are just too expensive. I have a grinder. 

Isn't all organic meat free-range?  Or is that just in the UK & Europe?

 

[ldg]

Not in the states. There is no legal definition of free range for anything but poultry, and even that definition is incredibly questionable (and misleading). In fact, the definition of "free range" when it comes to poultry is just depressing. It can simply mean they're in a huge warehouse - just not in pens. I think they're required to have one square foot of space per bird? Something horrible. And there has to be "access" to the outside. So a door that is opened - usually to some concrete pad.

This sums it up: http://pasturedpoultry.org/pasturedpoultry.htm

I recommend you not google for images if you don't want to be completely depressed.

 

[Willowy]

Isn't all organic meat free-range?  Or is that just in the UK & Europe?

Yes and no. . .yes in that organic poultry is raised under the same guidelines as "free-range" poultry, no in that "free-range" doesn't really mean anything useful. If you want real free-range poultry or pork, you have to buy from a small supplier, farmer's market, etc. Almost all beef is raised on pasture. . .it's how they're finished that makes the difference.

 

[orientalslave]

And I guess the US still has battery cages for egg-laying hens...

 

[Willowy]

I'm not up on egg-producing methods. But probably . Americans like their food cheap and plentiful. And the meat producers (probably egg producers, too?) are very politically powerful ($$$), so any attempts at improving matters don't go far. The waste is appalling. . .something like half of the meat produced ends up being thrown away.

 

[Willowy]

Here's a link about food waste in America: http://uanews.org/node/10448

I was feeling bad about feeding human-grade meat to my pets, because raising meat takes a terrible toll on the environment, and animals SHOULD be eating the bits humans don't want, ideally. But with that amount of waste. . .at least I'm feeding it to animals instead of throwing it away.

 

[cinderflower]

Isn't all organic meat free-range?  Or is that just in the UK & Europe?

"organic" really just refers how the animal is fed and raised (organic feed or grass, no GMO crops, growth hormones or antibiotics unless there's an outbreak) and free-range animals are allowed to roam.  as usual, the multi-billion $ factory farming industry will find a way to read between the lines and simply not state certain things or take advantage of the fact that the legal definition of a term as is understood by most of the public is not the same legal definition they have manipulated.  they're adding things like "cage-free" "open air" etc.  i won't buy anything in the grocery store that is labeled like that because it's just a way for them to charge more for a product that only has the appearance of, instead of actually being, humane and ethical.

i would prefer to buy meat that is directly from a farm i can actually visit, and fortunately there are quite a few farms like this in colorado.  how feasible this actually is remains to be seen.

And I guess the US still has battery cages for egg-laying hens...

of course.  i don't really want anything to do with factory-farmed products, but i want a healthy diet for my cats.  i really don't like depending on processed canned food because it requires that i trust a business.  i absolutely refuse to buy anything directly affiliated with proctor & gamble or other huge conglomerates.  but i can't go to the factories of the products i do buy and see them, i have to take their word for a lot of things.  i know they're still using terms that are appealing to the consumer,  but not exactly what people think of when they hear terms like "human grade" or "restaurant quality".  that kind of food also has a lot of preservatives in it (and sometimes other ingredients i don't really like, like carrageenan) that wouldn't be in food i prepared myself.  the USDA/FDA inspected/approved products mean very little to me because i don't think they've done all that well for humans, let along animals.

as far as buying scraps from a slaughterhouse, i really don't know that i'm prepared to buy lungs, intestines, spleens, etc.  i can only go so far.

  (just like i won't be able to buy live chickens and wring their necks.) i may very well end up buying meat which was raised and slaughtered in a manner with which i don't agree, simply because i can't afford to spend $200 a month on cat food.  i don't have a grinder either, i don't know how much equipment i'm prepared to buy, yet.  i suppose if i wanted to get around all this, i wouldn't have cats.  but i do, they're already here, so i'll just do the best i can by them.  at least i know that i haven't monetarily supported factory-farming for 38 years.  if i have to for my cats for however long they live, that's that.  sometimes i have to compromise.

 

[ldg]

And I guess the US still has battery cages for egg-laying hens...

As if factory farming isn't depressing enough. I simply can no longer buy commercially farmed eggs. Thankfully we live rural, so I buy eggs from local farmers.

 

[orientalslave]

"organic" really just refers how the animal is fed and raised (organic feed or grass, no GMO crops, growth hormones or antibiotics unless there's an outbreak)

Clearly the US definition is quite different to the UK / European definition.  All certified organic meat, milk & eggs in the UK must be  free range. 

 

[Willowy]

USDA regulations state that organic meat/poultry animals must be free-range, defined as "having access to the outdoors". However, "the USDA regulations do not specify the quality or size of the outside range nor the duration of time an animal must have access to the outside", so it's basically meaningless. The producers will take every loophole they can to make more money.

I don't know if the European regulations are better at defining what "access to the outdoors" means, or if European organic producers are better at raising the animals humanely, or if it's similarly meaningless there.