Looking for a Good early spay/neuter arguement

[gayef]

Originally Posted by TNR1

Yes they are Gaye....look up the word "breeder" in a dictionary:

Main Entry: breed·er
Function: noun
: one that breeds: as a : an animal or plant kept for propagation b : one engaged in the breeding of a specified organism

breeder

n : a person who breeds animals [syn: stock breeder]

Just because these people do not fit your criteria doesn't make them any less a breeder. A breeder is based on intent..not how well that intent is executed. Besides...if we say that all registered purebreds are from breeders...then we must include those individuals who run mills and BYBs as they can clearly show papers for their puppies/kittens. You can certainly also call them irresponsible owners...but they are also breeders.

Katie ... just because the dictionary defines the word "nut" as:

1. An indehiscent, hard-shelled, one-loculated, one-seeded fruit, such as an acorn or hazelnut.
2. A seed borne within a fruit having a hard shell, as in the peanut, almond, or walnut.
3. The kernel of any of these.

doesn't mean that the people we consider to be "nuts" are actually filberts or pecans now does it? And further, if we mix them with a popular breakfast cereal and some spices then bake them for a short period of time, does this mean we can call them Chex Mix? I think not. *grin*

The point I am trying to get across to you here is simple: change your (rescue's) way of looking at breeders in comparison to irresponsible pet owners. There IS a huge difference. Just because people can put two animals with intact reproductive systems together and produce a litter does NOT make them breeders - as written, it does, but as interpreted, it doesn't. I would think the focus should be in the interpretation of the word "breeder" more so than the literal definition of the word because it is important to ensuring that people change their perception. Is this really such a difficult adjustment for you (rescue) to make in your way of thinking? If you can but change your (rescue's) perception here, it would go a very long way in demonstrating your dedication to the cause.

Let me ask you this ... what would you estimate the number of pedigreed animals not sold with breeding rights to be? And what would you estimate to be the number of animals with intact reproductive systems adopted from shelter care? Do you think there is any equality there? Do you think that the number of adoptions is greater or lesser than the number of animals purchased with pedigrees? Exploring the answer to this may help you to understand why you think having breeders apply a strict early spay/neuter policy would help bring down the numbers of homeless pets is far from being accurate. It is but a small drop in a huge bucket. Now having all ~pet owners~ apply a strict spay/neuter policy, early or not, certainly would bring down the numbers of homeless pets. Again, the importance is in understanding the difference between breeders (as interpreted - not literal) and irresponsible pet owners.

Originally Posted by TNR1

Gaye..as someone who used to work in the shelter community....where exactly do we find the time to hold such a class. After we are done answering calls/emails but before we take care of the 100+ animals at our ranch? Or maybe before we make the hour drive from Spottsylvania to the 3 adoption events we hold on a weekend. Or maybe after we go and select which animals at the shelter we will actually pull. There just isn't time Gaye for such an undertaking. We are volunteer based which means we are reliant upon the availability of those who help us....and their time is precious too.

Katie, no one ever said any of this was easy/simple or not time consuming. But if an organization is dedicated to a certain cause and educating the public is determined to be a good way of getting the word about that cause to the people needing most to hear it, then the priority should be placed in getting that message where it needs to be heard. There are volunteer resources who can be assigned to these daily tasks - and complete them while others are holding class. Still others can be placed on the phones and email and yet others caring for the residents. Utilizing resources well and placing them where they are best served is the key in successfully running any venture, whether it is a not for profit org or a for profit entity.

Originally Posted by TNR1

I agree that there is a need to address owners out there....but I don't understand why everything must fall to the rescue community to start or address and then the breeders will help. Why can't some of it be started by breeders?

Sheesh! Why is it that rescue always finds a way to whine that breeders aren't doing enough?? When compared to the number of our cats purchased by irresponsible owners, the number of animals adopted from rescue by irresponsible owners is significantly higher. Doesn't that shed any light on where the responsibility for such education may lie? Why is it so hard to wrap yourself around the idea that breeders do everything they can to ensure appropriate, loving care is given to the animals they produce. Rescue should be held to the same high standard. That's all I am trying to say - if you want us to do these things, then you (rescue) should too. Just because the rescue you specifically support does the good things you mentioned (and I commend them for it!) doesn't mean this is standard operating procedure for all of the others - and until it is, harping on breeders isn't going to change anything.

Originally Posted by TNR1

I see a lot of people who are looking for purebreds and don't know the first thing about what to look for in a responsible breeder...should that information come from the rescue community? Or would it be better addressed by those individuals who are already breeders.

After doing a real quick, down and dirty Google, I find 1,660,000 matches for the key phrase "responsible breeder". And from a quick scan of the first 5 pages of those results, it appears that the majority of those sites are coming from breeders. I do see a few from rescue/shelters, but not as many as I see from breeder's web sites. What does this say to you?

Originally Posted by TNR1

I think at this point...I will stop contributing to this thread...I do not like being put in the middle of what are hard feelings that are on both ends of this discussion (I got an ear full this weekend at the spay clinic from fellow rescuers who are just as adement that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder) so for my sanity...I'm pulling out. Yes...I can see both sides...but understandibly...I'm tired.

Wow, I wish I had read your entire reply before I literally wasted an entire afternoon composing mine. I am sorry you feel you are in the middle but I feel compelled to remind you that you began this when you first chose to participate in the discussion. Other breeders (besides myself) did suggest to you that this was a breeder's Forum and that we do discuss issues from that standpoint. By making the choice to participate here, you opened the door. I am sorry you are tired - I am too. But as someone I know to be as dedicated to the cause as you are, I am more than a little disappointed in your last comment. Seeing both sides is a good thing, but seeing both sides and then finding the way to bridge them is better.

No harm, no foul. I have thoroughly enjoyed debating with you and am sorry you don't feel compelled to continue. I hope you find a comfortable place, Katie and that you can do good in whatever way you choose to help.

My continued best to you,

Gaye

 

[tnr1]

But as someone I know to be as dedicated to the cause as you are, I am more than a little disappointed in your last comment. Seeing both sides is a good thing, but seeing both sides and then finding the way to bridge them is better.

I have a lot of respect for you Gaye...but this is a topic I just refuse to go any further on. We are disagreeing on some very fundamental points and if we cannot agree on those...I can't see how progress could be made with others who have even more extreme views than I do.

Katie

 

[qit el-remel]

Originally Posted by TNR1

Qit...one would have to ask if that is a result simply of spaying/neutering or whether that can be attributed to other factors such as diet or lack of physical activity.

Would lack of activity stunt a cat's growth?

-Qit

 

[plebayo]

I'm way behind in this thread, I didn't even read half of it. But I wanted to answer the main question.

Firstly, cats can be spayed/neutered as early as 6 weeks. It's not reccomended it be done that soon, but it is possible. My cat was neutered at about 16 weeks. There is a myth going around saying that if you wait longer a male cat is less likely to have a urinary block because with testosterone the tract can get bigger. That is false. There is no proof that an unneutered cat is less likely to get blocked than a neutered cat.

They do say however, that an altered cat is more likely to over eat than an unaltered cat because the extra hormones help tell the cat when it is full.

At my clinic we help a rescue, and we do all of their cat/dog spays and neuters. I think the youngest we've done was 8-10 weeks. Most of the kittens are at least 12 weeks when brought in. So 12 weeks is a resonable age in my oppinion.

I honestly think it depends on the individual cat. But I would say my minimum would be 12 weeks.

 

[mihoshi]

Thank you everyone for your interesting points and views, much respect should be given to everyone for their strong beliefs.

It does anger and upset me when I see puppy/kitten mills with their shotty practices, and yes I was aware that these people existed before I began to breed, but they are not me, and certainly not the people I work with.

I believe in early spay/neuter as I feel it is the most responsbile action for someone in my position and has thus far been a successful practice for me. I keep my standards high and never compromise for a possible client, and I never place a cat unaltered to non-established, high standard breeders. My problem, that started this thread, was that the vets here (where I recently moved) do not share this early altering vision.

I am happy to report that I was able to meet with several vets in person since beginning this thread and now have two seperate practices who have been swayed by my beliefs and have agreed to spay/neuter between 12-16 weeks of age.

I'm sorry to extend the topic, but there is a story that took place at my home yesterday that I feel needs to be shared. There is one other cattery in the tri-county area, a Himi/Persian/Siamese irresponsible kitten mill. One of this breeders kittens was placed in a box, tapped shut, and thrown into our pond in the country. I won't get into exact details, but I have many reasons to be certain that this cat is from the above mentioned breeder.

Thankfully, I did save the young girl (approximately 4-6 months of age) from death, as the box was apparently thrown out of a car window and did not entirely submerge under water. She is now living on our back porch, awaiting a vet visit to ensure she is disease free and to be spayed before bringing her inside to be a forever pet in my home. She has been declawed and was flea infested with deep scratches that suggests to me that her owners had a sudden reason to get rid of her recently. I called the breeder, and she had absolutely no interest in even seeing the cat to verify it was from her program, and certainly was not open to taking the kitten back (with the excuse that she already sold the cat so it's the owners problem now).

While I usually end up keeping 80% of the cats that are dumped here until a rescue can help me place them, I find this kittens fate to be extremely DISGUSTING considering that the breeder is around and local. This person is the opposit of who I am, and 100% the opposit of the owners I allow to adopt my babies. I do my absolute best to find forever homes, and always take back cats I've breed, even if I have to shell out $200 for shipping I would much rather pay to get them back then have them homeless. People like this are why we have to make a better definition of "breeder" and "irresponsible pet owner" as this other cattery just randomly puts cats together for profit. These are the kind of people that we need to fight against, those that breed without care and those that would dump their cat in this frightening, heartless fashion (and who would declaw over spay).

 

[gayef]

Mihoshi, I would be interested in knowing the points you raised to these two vets as well as your counter points. My luck with vets on this issue has not been as good as yours in trying to change their antiquated views.

As I have maintained, throughout this thread and elsewhere, if pediatric spay/neuter performed by a competant vet who charged a reasonable fee were available to me, I would seek it.

With regard to your horrendous story, first, let me say how relieved I was to read that you were able to rescue this poor little girl! She must have been beside herself with fear! But, the one point I cannot agree with was that the person who allowed this to happen to her was a "breeder". IMO, this person simply doesn't meet the rigid criteria to actually BE a breeder - just because she is producing kittens doesn't mean we can call her a breeder ... she is, at absolute BEST, an irresponsible animal owner hell-bent on turning a profit. This just cements my point about the differences between those who actually are deserving of the term "breeder" and those who should sew the label of "irresponsible animal owner" in their camp clothes. By referring to her (and others like her) as a "breeder", we are further allowing people to view us (responsible breeders) in a negative light. We want for people to respect us, our work, our cats - and the ways in which we carefully choose our lines, lovingly raise the kittens and provide only the best of care for the cats is but a very small part of what we do. There is SO much more to it than that. There always will be irresponsible people who allow their animals to breed. But the fact remains that there is a HUGE difference between those people and "BREEDERS".

Many people have extremely limited experience with a breeder, if any experience at all. But ask around and most will tell you they at least know someone or have heard of someone who had a negative experience with a "breeder" and they do not at all seem to mind telling you exactly how horrific that experience was in lurid detail. I wonder if every now and then someone were to say something like, "Oh, I had a friend who had a totally wonderful experience with a lovely breeder and highly recommends her to others all the time!" if the image of breeders might improve a little ... or perhaps when you hear of a person who had a negative experience such as the one you mentioned *shudder*, you could respond with something like ... "Oh, that person isn't a BREEDER, they are a MONSTER! BREEDERS would NEVER allow something like that to happen to one of their cats!! Only a MONSTER would ever let something like that happen!!" ... if we couldn't begin to change the perception. Just a little something to think about.

~gf~

 

[butterpaws]

I am going through the same thing with my vet too! None of the Vets here in Saskatoon are doing early spay/neuter before 6 months so I would love to have some tips on what to say as well. . . .

Martine Sansoucy
Butterpaws Reg'd LaPerms
www.geocities.com/lperms
[email protected]

 

[mihoshi]

I agree with you whole heartidly Gayef. My apologize for refering to the person as a "breeder," my intent was to show that people claim themselves to be breeders when they are, in fact, just louses and uncaring, irresponsible people. But I see upon fully re-reading the story that that message comes off confusing, at best. So please allow me to clarify that this person is not what I would consider a breeder, but rather one who uses the term to finess more money out of her unknowing clients.


As for my vet tactics, I have spoken with several vets in person who turned me down flat. I took care to make appointments to speak with vets that I had not been able to obtain in person before. Upon sitting down in their offices, I explained my strong beliefs that it is in the pet-overpopulation's best interest to not give every Joe Nobody a chance to breed unregistered purebred cats, or create moggies or designer cats with them. I kept going into a long speech of being personally responsible for every kitten born (and any generations that follow) and I needed the help of a responsible vet to continue my work in a positive way, to bring people loving family members without having the fear of these cats reproducing.

I gave them my previous success stories with early spay/neuter and how it has not effected any of my cats negatively. I also gave a speal about my vet tech past and how there aren't too many more concern for side effects at 3 months than there are at 6 months and began to discredit some of the common misconceptions on early spay/neuter. After that, I opened up a huge portfolio of printed articles from very respectable cat sorces (CFA, TICA, vets, etc) - a good 20 pieces backing up my wish to spay/neuter at 12 weeks. Both veterinarians looked threw some of the articles and consented, I was very surprised myself considering the first vet was very rigid about not doing the surgery beforehand. There was a third vet that still refused the surgery (he also would barely allow me to talk, constantly cutting my sentence off), but 2 out of 3 isn't bad at all!

I have a quote for $38.50 for males and $55.50 for females from one of the agreeing vets, quite a good offer in my area.

 

[semiferal]

Originally Posted by gayef

Oh Heavens, I would never DREAM of using shelter resources to obtain reduced cost pediatric spay/neuter!! What I thought was being tossed in as an option was to ask the low- or no-cost spay/neuter clinics who they used as their vet and then contact that vet directly - some, if they are at all open to working with breeders, are willing to offer a "breeder discount". But the sad truth, at least in my area, is that many vets who do provide their services to low- or no-cost spay/neuter clinics are also heavily anti-breeding. I have never gotten past the sentence where I tell them I am a breeder! They either (not so politely) tell me they do not work with breeders or else they just hang up on me.

I would be all over having my kittens altered before going to their forever homes if I could find a competant vet willing to perform the procedures at a reasonable cost. So far, I haven't found that vet. The closest I came to it was a guy who confessed to me that he learned how to do early spay/neuter on ferrets while he was in vet school but hasn't done any since then and he wanted a huge amount of money to do it. I whole-heartedly agree with the message of "responsible breeders spay or neuter their kittens before going to the new homes". The message is a good one, but if the standards by which breeders operate continue to be heightened, then the vet community needs to keep up and the pet owning community needs to understand that they aren't keeping up at all. Many Vets just aren't willing to even consider the possibility because it isn't politically correct to support breeders, no matter how good or responsible they are.

~gf~

I am kind of surprised to hear this. I mean, personally I do not believe in or support breeding cats for any purpose but I do believe that all pet cats should be spayed/neutered and if I were a vet, I certainly would not pass up an opportunity to put that ideal into action! If anything, I would almost consider s/n of purebreds before adoption to be *more* important than s/n of random bred cats since there is more of a risk that they will fall into the hands of an unscrupulous person (let's face it, **** happens no matter how good our screening processes are) and become stock for some awful BYB, having God knows how many litters over a lifetime. At least with a random bred cat you can be fairly sure that the cat will be s/n eventually, even if a female does have one litter beforehand, and that the cat won't be used for BYB.

For me it's mostly about the welfare of the individual cats in this situation. The vast majority of cat overpopulation really comes from pets in households in the lowest income bracket (whose animals are basically never seen at a vet practice, period) and stray/feral cats, not from accidental first litters. While it is very important to avoid accidental litters to avoid contributing to overpopulation, if every female cat in the entire country only had one litter before being spayed then we wouldn't have an overpopulation problem at all.

So I guess I can't understand why s/n purebred kittens before placement would be seen as "supporting" breeding. To me it's just about supporting spay/neuter! And if I were a vet, anyone who supports s/n of pet cats and wants to s/n kittens before placing them in homes would someone I could certainly find enough common ground with to have a productive professional relationship.

I admit that I'd probably charge nearly standard price, probably less a "volume" discount of 10% or so, but I don't think that $150/female and $120/male are too extravagant especially since it makes the kitten "value added" and you can factor it into the price you are asking.

 

[gayef]

Originally Posted by semiferal

I am kind of surprised to hear this. I mean, personally I do not believe in or support breeding cats for any purpose but I do believe that all pet cats should be spayed/neutered and if I were a vet, I certainly would not pass up an opportunity to put that ideal into action! If anything, I would almost consider s/n of purebreds before adoption to be *more* important than s/n of random bred cats since there is more of a risk that they will fall into the hands of an unscrupulous person (let's face it, **** happens no matter how good our screening processes are) and become stock for some awful BYB, having God knows how many litters over a lifetime. At least with a random bred cat you can be fairly sure that the cat will be s/n eventually, even if a female does have one litter beforehand, and that the cat won't be used for BYB.

For me it's mostly about the welfare of the individual cats in this situation. The vast majority of cat overpopulation really comes from pets in households in the lowest income bracket (whose animals are basically never seen at a vet practice, period) and stray/feral cats, not from accidental first litters. While it is very important to avoid accidental litters to avoid contributing to overpopulation, if every female cat in the entire country only had one litter before being spayed then we wouldn't have an overpopulation problem at all.

So I guess I can't understand why s/n purebred kittens before placement would be seen as "supporting" breeding. To me it's just about supporting spay/neuter! And if I were a vet, anyone who supports s/n of pet cats and wants to s/n kittens before placing them in homes would someone I could certainly find enough common ground with to have a productive professional relationship.

I admit that I'd probably charge nearly standard price, probably less a "volume" discount of 10% or so, but I don't think that $150/female and $120/male are too extravagant especially since it makes the kitten "value added" and you can factor it into the price you are asking.

I was kind of surprised by it too, Semiferal. Actually, it is more accurate to say I was shocked and appalled. Imagine if you will the conversation and how it went. I go in and ask for services to be provided to me by a compentant practitioner at a rate that is reasonable and customary - nothing wrong with that, you might think ... entirely reasonable requests, right? Well, I am either promptly shown the door or quoted a rate that is artificially inflated because I am a breeder and "can afford it" since I charge X amount of dollars for my kittens. Do you know that I actually called this same vet and didn't identify myself as a breeder, but as a pet owner who adopted a 12 week-old kitten ... and I asked about pediatric spay/neuter. I was quoted a price that was over HALF LESS than what I was quoted when they knew they were talking to a breeder. This saddens me greatly, but what am I supposed to do about it? Argue? Beg? Try to convince them I am a good breeder when all they believe about breeders is that they add to the pet overpopulation crisis and should be shut down at all costs?

This is obviously a topic very near and dear to my heart and I do tend to become overly passionate about it. It's just WRONG and it makes me extremely angry.

~gf~

 

[mihoshi]

OMG that happens to me to! I'll call a vet and ask about a single cat and get one price, if I ask about a litter of purebred cats I get a 2/3 raise of price on EACH kitten!

It also changes by who I talk to: I called in a black Egyptian Mau kitten, $38.50, I called a few days later about a tabby dumped here (identifying him as an outdoor stray) and got a quote of $68 for neuter, $35 for shots, $50 lukemia (sp?) test and $22 office visit fee! The vaccinations they give I can do for $0.65, luek test I can do for about $10, and as I'm still a legal vet tech, I do it myself all the time. All this for a cat I've already said is a T-N-R!!!! Tough choice, $10.65 to do it myself, or $107 to let the vet do it, it's ridiculous.

I don't mind providing food for an abandoned cat, but when do you draw the line and say "hey, I have human kids to feed! I can't put all of this money into a stray cat that isn't even mine!"? I shouldn't have to pay high fees for someone elses carelessness. That's what I hate about private practice vets, they have to pad the prices to pay all of their staff and equipment off. Office visit fees are my most hated thing about vets, it's like paying vets for the privlage of you giving them your business. Many times they'll tack it on in addition to a price quote; these guys make it so hard for a low income or average pet owner to act responsibly when all the vets see is green!

I dunno how much I'd recommend it otherwise, but does VA have any mobile clinics? Here in Ohio there is a mobile clinic always in Columbus that charges $30 for a spay/neuter. I know it's not the best place to go, but if it's between that and chancing a cat breeding I would personally go to the clinic.
I don't believe they care if you're a breeder as it pays the staff either way. Vet colleges might also do it as well. Again, not the best situation, but we have to decide what is the lesser of two evils.

 

[bengalbabe]

I asked my new vet about it the other day. They said they wont do early s/n for people's pets because too much stuff can go wrong but they will do it for strays/shelter animals since no one is basically "attached" to them.