Looking for a Birman Breeder....

[p3 and the king]

I don't know?  I am not a breeder.  I don't know what all she does to be honest?  I just know that Paige was a gift to me.  And she was "Sold" or given as a show pet.  So she was "whole"... I later got her spayed because I don't show or wish to breed.  I am just stating that she is not a "bad" breeder is all.  You can disagree if you wish.  However, I think she is wonderful.   

Fully vetted here means that they have their vaccinations (and it just includes the first of the kittens vaccinations not all 3) and health check cleared to go to their new forever homes.  It does not include neuter/spay or micorchips, these are considered "extras"... I asked my vet just to be clear on this matter.  He said many breeders do, but not all.  If being shipped on a plane, they do have to have all 3 shots so completed vaccinations and a thorough health check and they have to be over a certain age, I don't recall how old but I know it's over 12 weeks.

 

[missymotus]

Fully vetted here means that they have their vaccinations (and it just includes the first of the kittens vaccinations not all 3) and health check cleared to go to their new forever homes. 

Not according to the US breeders I correspond with, their meaning of fully is the same as mine.

Didn't say she was a bad breeder, I don't know her after all and all information is being passed on by someone who apparently doesn't know what she does.

 

[p3 and the king]

The OP wanted breeder information... All I did was offer her a BIRMAN breeder that can possibly help her.  I never said "This is what she is going to charge you and this is what she does"  I just gave the information to the poster so if they wish to contact her, they can... There is no reason to get so offended or be so cautionary.  It never hurts to contact and ask. 

Well, different states have different ideas, and I do know that Paige had all her shots and a complete health check.  But I paid for a microchip and I later had her spayed.  Considering she was a gift, I think I got an excellent deal.  However, Piper and Phoebe were the same way.... They came to me with a good health screening and with all their kitten shots but it was my responsibility to have them spayed and to have them chipped.  And I would recommend their breeder to anyone as well....

Because both raise wonderfully social kittens that are HEALTHY and parents are PKD negative and clear genetic screens otherwise, as well.  Not to mention that they further the breed by trying to acheive certain looks and traits.  That is what a good breeder wants. 

 

[Willowy]

Cat breeders, if they care about their lines at all and have any interest in preventing oops litters (and isn't that the definition of "responsible"?), spay/neuter pet quality kittens before sale. Otherwise, since cats are such efficient breeders, their kittens could be having accidental (or not-so-accidental) litters all over the place. It's just not responsible for a cat breeder to sell an unspayed kitten (although I do know some think it's better to wait to neuter a male). Snce they don't let kittens go home until 12 weeks, this usually isn't a problem. Does you breeder have anything about breeding in the contract?

Of course it's different with dogs. They don't breed as young or as easily.

I am appalled that anyone would breed a human-aggressive Chow and still consider themselves responsible. No wonder the breed got into such a mess . Although if your father was aggressive with the dog (I assume this is what "showing him who is master" means), that would explain a lot of it.

 

[orientalslave]

I don't know?  I am not a breeder.  I don't know what all she does to be honest?  I just know that Paige was a gift to me.  And she was "Sold" or given as a show pet.  So she was "whole"... I later got her spayed because I don't show or wish to breed. 

<snip>

Surely neutered cats can be shown where you live?  That was a huge step forward for cat showing in the UK, and finally it's become permissible to show neutered dogs as well.

 

[missymotus]

Yes alters can be shown in all associations in the US. How many breeders begin

 

[p3 and the king]

Cat breeders, if they care about their lines at all and have any interest in preventing oops litters (and isn't that the definition of "responsible"?), spay/neuter pet quality kittens before sale. Otherwise, since cats are such efficient breeders, their kittens could be having accidental (or not-so-accidental) litters all over the place. It's just not responsible for a cat breeder to sell an unspayed kitten (although I do know some think it's better to wait to neuter a male). Snce they don't let kittens go home until 12 weeks, this usually isn't a problem. Does you breeder have anything about breeding in the contract?
Of course it's different with dogs. They don't breed as young or as easily.
I am appalled that anyone would breed a human-aggressive Chow and still consider themselves responsible. No wonder the breed got into such a mess

. Although if your father was aggressive with the dog (I assume this is what "showing him who is master" means), that would explain a lot of it.

First of all, Willowy, your direction I feel you are trying to go in insulting my parents and calling them irresponsible breeders is highly, highly, false and uncalled for.  My dad was not in any way abusive to the male dog but on occassion, he did have to assert dominance.  Anyone who has bred or has knowledge of chow chows and their stubborness will tell you that you have to do this.  You cannot be  a "I don't care" master with these dogs.  They will not respect you and they will turn on you.  Stupidity and laziness on the part of PEOPLE is what makes these dogs aggressive and mean.... NOT the breeder usually.  My parents would go over this with the perspective screened owners with their lawyer present and explain it to them.  But sometimes people just don't listen and they will do what they are going to do... That is not my parents fault.  That is why they protected themselves.  Our dogs were well mannnered and behaved with us.  That is usually how it is with chows.  They don't like strangers.  And our pups were always in not only excellent health but good socially, too.  So suggesting that my parents may have been BYB's is hitting below the belt and I do not appeciate it at all.  Shame on you.

  You need to think before you speak next time. 

As for the breeder contract, yes, I did have a contract to spay both Piper and Phoebe.  And she made sure it was done, too.  You can change your mind and buy breeding rights if you wish, too.  However, she has the final say whether or not to sell breeding rights on a cat or to a person.  A lot of the time, on her less attractive kittens, she will have them spayed first or if she just gets a "feeling" about someone possibly not keeping their word about neutering.  As for the Birman breeder, I explained she was a gift... From a friend.  She knew I would be responsible if I chose not to show her or breed her (I do have breeding rights on Paige) but I had her spayed.  I hope that answers your question. Also it should be noted that the last time I actually purchased from a breeder was 5 years ago, so a lot has changed in "rules" since then.   

 

[lbbs]

Wow... sorry to create such controversy....

One thing I was going to say, my vet won't fix a cat until at least 4 months old. I have no interest in breeding(fostered enough kittens and pregnant cats that I got my fill) - so spaying would be a definite, but I would prefer to have a cat spayed at my own vet vs having it done prior. I am just more comfortable with a pet of ours using our vet for something important like a surgery. So, that is something I will be looking for. And I realize that may mean I have to find a different breed of cat, but it is just my preference. And I have no problem signing a contract and providing proof of spay. Oh, and microchipping wouldn't make a difference here. We live in a little dinky town and they don't scan here at all.

On a different note, about chows. Not all chows are the same and it is sometimes the breeder that makes an aggressive chow, but it is not the breeder persay, as much as it is the lines. Just like any other dog, you can have different lines... Border Collies for instance, you can have 'working' lines that are great for farms, but are NOT good in town house pets, and are not the best pets for little kids(they have a tendancy to herd small children and animals).... however, you can have other lines that work great for house pets, showing, and agility. Same breed, DIFFERENT personalities.... It is the same with chows. Some people take the chows natural protection ability and over use it. My dogs are not aggressive at all... but they are protective. The difference being, they bark when someone comes to my door, they may 'huff and puff' when they first come in, but they NEVER and I mean NEVER lunge, bark or try to bite someone who comes into my house. Ever. I would never ever allow that. Not unless me, my husband or my kids were in danger. I have never had to assert dominance over them. Alot of people say that chows are not trainable, or rather very hard to train. My dogs behave just like any other dog, except that they probably get away with alot less than other dogs. But my kids are the same way. They don't get away with much either.. lol  With chows, it is not a firmer or 'meaner' training, it is just a different style of training. I just have to convince them that it is something that they want to do, and it is not usually that hard. I have only had Mao Mao for two years, and she had no training, but she is very well mannered now. And Chi-Ching has gone through: Puppy, Beginner, two Intermediate, Advanced, Agility and 3 different 'Pet Training' classes before his hips got too bad for him to continue.

Believe it or not, most chows who end up in rescue, are not there because of aggression.... And the ones who are, usually didn't have an owner who knew how to train them properly. Chows do very poorly in rescue because they are a breed of dog who NEED socializing. They are not backyard dogs, they NEED to be around lots of other people, or they do bond only with their families and become very protective of them. This is why I don't push them for other people. Most people are not willing to do the work a chow needs to be a good social dog(this does not mean they are everyones friend, it just means that they are okay with other people being around) Oddly enough, they are very cat like in their behaviour and that is my favorite part about them. I will never NOT own a chow... Definitely my favorite breed of dog....

 

[Willowy]

OP, you may have trouble finding a decent breeder of any breed who sells unspayed kittens to pet homes. Especially if you'll be going out of state. They've just been burned too many times. If the kitten is spayed before you even meet her, would that be different?

First of all, Willowy, your direction I feel you are trying to go in insulting my parents and calling them irresponsible breeders is highly, highly, false and uncalled for.  My dad was not in any way abusive to the male dog but on occassion, he did have to assert dominance.  Anyone who has bred or has knowledge of chow chows and their stubborness will tell you that you have to do this.  You cannot be  a "I don't care" master with these dogs.  They will not respect you and they will turn on you.  Stupidity and laziness on the part of PEOPLE is what makes these dogs aggressive and mean.... NOT the breeder usually.  My parents would go over this with the perspective screened owners with their lawyer present and explain it to them.  But sometimes people just don't listen and they will do what they are going to do... That is not my parents fault.  That is why they protected themselves.  Our dogs were well mannnered and behaved with us.  That is usually how it is with chows.  They don't like strangers.  And our pups were always in not only excellent health but good socially, too.  So suggesting that my parents may have been BYB's is hitting below the belt and I do not appeciate it at all.  Shame on you.   You need to think before you speak next time.  :angry2:

I call 'em like I see 'em? :dk: Breeding any human-aggressive dog is not acceptable. Protective, yes, but if they take that too far and overreact to non-threatening strangers, they are unstable and should not be bred. Basic temperment is largely genetic. Using human-aggressive breeding stock is what gets protective breeds in trouble.

I know dog training, and "asserting dominance" (again, if by which you mean aggressive handling, since you aren't saying what you mean) is never necessary. Aggression begets aggression. I also wonder what kind of genetic health testing your parents did (were the dogs OFA and CERF certified, etc.). And how many times they bred the male to the same female, and how many times was each female bred. And what their provision was for dogs of their breeding if the owners couldn't keep them--what did they do to keep their dogs out of shelters? There's a lot that goes into responsible breeding, and once we know better we do better. If they didn't know better it doesn't mean they were bad people. But I wouldn't continue to promote those breeding practices.

 

[missymotus]

OP, you may have trouble finding a decent breeder of any breed who sells unspayed kittens to pet homes. Especially if you'll be going out of state. They've just been burned too many times. If the kitten is spayed before you even meet her, would that be different?
.

Better for the kitten too, can just settle into the new home and not be disrupted by another vet visit

Youngsters recover so much quicker too, bouncing out the carry box like nothing has happened

While you may do the right thing and honor a spay contract, many don't. Bybs don't care about papers, that's part of why so many breeders alter before placement

It is also hard to get breeding rights from a responsible breeder, many like you to show a neuter for a while to get a feel for the breed

 

[lbbs]

Actually, I wouldn't mind one that was already spayed. We have been talking anyway, and I think we are looking at one that is maybe 6 months to a year... I would like one litter box trained.

Sorry about the dog argument.... I really wasn't trying to get people riled up...

 

[p3 and the king]

OP, you may have trouble finding a decent breeder of any breed who sells unspayed kittens to pet homes. Especially if you'll be going out of state. They've just been burned too many times. If the kitten is spayed before you even meet her, would that be different?
I call 'em like I see 'em?

Breeding any human-aggressive dog is not acceptable. Protective, yes, but if they take that too far and overreact to non-threatening strangers, they are unstable and should not be bred. Basic temperment is largely genetic. Using human-aggressive breeding stock is what gets protective breeds in trouble.
I know dog training, and "asserting dominance" (again, if by which you mean aggressive handling, since you aren't saying what you mean) is never necessary. Aggression begets aggression. I also wonder what kind of genetic health testing your parents did (were the dogs OFA and CERF certified, etc.). And how many times they bred the male to the same female, and how many times was each female bred. And what their provision was for dogs of their breeding if the owners couldn't keep them--what did they do to keep their dogs out of shelters? There's a lot that goes into responsible breeding, and once we know better we do better. If they didn't know better it doesn't mean they were bad people. But I wouldn't continue to promote those breeding practices.

Your opinions or not, you don't know me or my parents.  And you have no idea what you are talking about. I think we just need to drop this... And you need to shut up on this and keep your "opinions" to yourself.  FYI, my parents were both trained and professional dog handlers and trainers.  So he was handled humanely but if it warranted it, they would get assertive, but not aggressive with him.  Moe, our male.... Was a 3 time grand champion.  He was fine outside of his home property.  But if strangers did come on our property, he would be aggressive, yes.  But, my parents took every precaution to make sure no one ever got hurt or even inconvenienced by him.  And in his whole 15 years of life, not one incident of trouble with the law.  Our female, Suzy, was protective but she'd do little more than bark and growl at strangers.  But if you yelled at me or she thought you might hurt me, she would have attacked.  Again, it never happened.  The only person she ever bit was my father because he yelled at me for tearing up the yard one day.  Suzy bit him after growling at him.  He did not hit her and he did not discipline her.  He backed off and then took control of the situation by putting her away to calm down. 

They only bred them 4 times because though most of the puppies lived long and happy lives, there was a 40% chance that the people would get lazy and not be the dominant figure to their dog so they would get aggressive with them....So about half of each litter we would find out years or so, or maybe as young as a year would be destroyed.  But, I want to point out that later facts came to my parents showing it was not their fault or even our dogs faults.... We found out a couple of these problem people were closeted drunks who would abuse the dogs.  A chow will defend itself.  And others would ignore it or treat it like a pomeranian or something.  They are not girly foo foo dogs at all.

About 90% of the puppies we placed owners would report an incident or two but most of the time, it was overblown or corrected.  The ones that were put down were because they were beyond repair due to lack of understanding or even abuse of the breed.   

Because of my parents concern over this possibly being genetic, though, we had no real problems with our own chows, they decided it wasn't the best breed to be breeding.  They even went as far as having them tested, this is when genetic testing was in its infancy and they never found anything.  They had them neutered and to live out their days as happy pets.... My mom then got German Shepherds later to breed after they were gone.  And not one problem ever reported with the GS's.   However, the GS's were protective and much like our chows in personality except for the cat aggression, they loved our cats.  Mom then decided it was the breed, not the dogs themselves. 

So you don't know what you're talking about and it's best for you to walk away, please.  I will not have you slandering me or my parents.  They weren't stupid.  Neither am I.  I was just trying to point out some of the more concerning points of this breed in case the OP did not know of it.  They do.  This is good.  I feel confident that the situation is good. 

And these digs not only at me but the cat breeders I've befriended need to stop, too.  There is no harm in talking to them and asking what their policies are.  Leave it alone and leave me alone.  I will not say this again.  Good day. 

 

[p3 and the king]

Actually, I wouldn't mind one that was already spayed. We have been talking anyway, and I think we are looking at one that is maybe 6 months to a year... I would like one litter box trained.

Sorry about the dog argument.... I really wasn't trying to get people riled up...

I am sorry about this.  I do apologize.  Some people can't leave well enough alone. 

 

[missymotus]

... I would like one litter box trained.

Any cat or kitten from a breeder should be litter and scratch post trained 

 I would prefer to have a cat spayed at my own vet vs having it done prior. I am just more comfortable with a pet of ours using our vet for something important like a surgery. 

As a breeder I much prefer my vet do the surgery, than the pet owners who's vet I know nothing about

 

[AbbysMom]

Just a reminder that this thread is about Birman breeders. Let's stick to that, OK? If anyone has personal remarks to make, please make them via PM, not out on the boards.