L-Lysine questions please.....

[best gift ever]

 
Hi, I'm sorry you & your kitty are going through this. Can you maybe go to another vet for a second opinion, before the specialist. I agree that maybe the vet should have known, or done at least a little more. 

Maybe another vet will have more knowledge & you won't have to go to a specialist, but it may be inevitable. (I'd start saving up, if you can).

It's good that you researched the calendula, I hadn't heard that one before. I'm familiar w/ calendula, but had never heard of it being used that way.  I'm not sure about adding honey though, that kind of makes me nervous. Especially if it's not organic.  Colloidal Silver may be a better alternative, but again, you have to know what strain, how many ppm's, etc...

I'm mentioning  @stephanietx, & @catspaw66   to see if anyone w/ more experience can help you. 

I wish you lots of luck, keep us posted! 

Thank you so much for your response. I did take him for a second opinion. We tried everything but he just got worse and worse. It seems he had cancer and I had to let him go. I've had pets all my life but I've never been so brokenhearted. This little boy was so extra special. The honey was just a little bit very diluted. It didn't sound to pleasant to me, either. But you get to that point where you'll try anything. But the situation I had, I can't really make any recommendation one way or the other since there was nothing I could do. Sorry it took me so long to respond but I've been too heartbroken for a month. Thanks again. 

 

[catmom marcia]

 
The important thing to know about Lysine is that it needs to stay in the kitty's system, so it needs to be given every 12 hours as it's shed in urine.  Also, it can take up to 6 weeks to see any benefit of Lysine.

That is good to know.  My cat's ocular surgeon recommended L-lysine when Missy's eyes developed corneal sequestrums and had to have surgeries to remove them.  She never told me this part though.  I've used it for sneezing when I have flareups here on other cats and it's always helped.  I had not heard the 1000mg for flare ups though.

 

[mollyblue]

I'm sorry you lost your buddy... we are dealing with a chronic cat too... a shelter rescue, she is only 3, and the days she is symptom fee are rare.  Thanks for doing what you could...

 

[angels mommy]

 
Thank you so much for your response. I did take him for a second opinion. We tried everything but he just got worse and worse. It seems he had cancer and I had to let him go. I've had pets all my life but I've never been so brokenhearted. This little boy was so extra special. The honey was just a little bit very diluted. It didn't sound to pleasant to me, either. But you get to that point where you'll try anything. But the situation I had, I can't really make any recommendation one way or the other since there was nothing I could do. Sorry it took me so long to respond but I've been too heartbroken for a month. Thanks again. 

Oh sweetie, I am so, so sorry. I know how you feel. Angel was my special boy, my "soul kitty."  Yesterday (5th)  was 10 months, since I had to let him go.  As much as it hurts, it will get better with time. 

I'm sure he is by your side, watching over you. 

  Talk to him, if it makes you feel better. I do that sometimes. Maybe when you feel up to it, also try writing the story of how you two came together. It can be theraputic to write. I'm sending you love & hugs my friend!  

 

 

[casadegato]

I just read a few articles that say that a new study showed that L-Lysine is not effective for the prevention or treatment of FHV in cats and may actually be harmful.

I've been giving this supplement to my cats for 6 years!

Here are a couple of articles I came across.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4647294/

http://consciouscat.net/2016/01/11/...ptoms-of-feline-upper-respiratory-infections/

 

[catspaw66]

Very interesting. I need to do more research on this. I have been telling friends for years to use L-lysine.

 

[catmom marcia]

The shelter vet said it was ineffective, but my regular vet said it is.  The shelter managers keep buying it and they seem to think it is effective; I seem to think it is effective for URI's and lots of my shelter foster friends think it is effective for URI's so the evidence many be anecdotal so I just don't know.  I gave it to my foster kittens when they started getting getting sneezy and it stopped almost immediately.  Evidence of effectiveness?  For me it is.

 

[young again]

L-Lysine discussion.

From a nutritional point of view I have always doubted that over supplementation of L-Lysine was effective on viruses. I personally believe that it has showed promise because many cat foods that contain carbs are lower in protein, than what a consumed small prey animal would be. Lysine is one of those amino acids that can not be produced by the body and has to be consumed. If a diet has more carbs, then it has to have less protein. Less animal protein means less lysine. When you are feeding a high carb diet and supplementing L-Lysine, then you are giving your cat more resources to make new cells, including immune cells. Many plant proteins are deficient in lysine. However, if you are feeding a carnivore diet (54% protein, 24% fat) then I would not supplement lysine. This assumes that all the protein is from animal sources. Even in an all meat carnivore diet we still need to add some L-Lysine because the meats available for use, are still much lower in lysine when compared to the body composition of a mouse. Please do not add additional lysine when feeding any of our diets. Just to clarify the early research showed L-Lysine to be effective in URI's not lysine. L-Lysine is the only man made source of lysine. My point above is that L-Lysine is acting as lysine and is improving the amino acid profile of the food and helping the cat produce more cells and it does not appear to have a separate effect on viruses replication.

An alternative to L-lysine.

Sorry for the long and technical discussion below, but more information is usually better. The first few paragraphs are the worst for tech talk. I included them because there are many Vets and other similar professionals that love the tech stuff. The gist of everything below is that nucleotides build cells in the body and if you supply them in their free form they can do so very quickly. When the body has a demand for a new cell it can quickly transport the nucleotides to the site of need to rapidly replace a damaged cell or build a new one. Two examples would be faster healing from a surgery or the rapid production of new immune cells in response to an infection. Nucleotides can be stored in the liver and brain for a quick response time.

Nucleotides are the building blocks that are necessary for making new DNA and RNA. They can be thought of as DNA food. Next, we need to think back to high school when we learned about the double-helix of DNA. Remember the spiral-appearing ladder with the different colored rungs? That is a model of the DNA that makes up the genes and chromosomes found in us all. DNA is a very large molecule, and the rungs of the DNA ladder are made up of a combination of four different nucleotides, the alphabet of life. The nucleotides are molecules, called guanosine and cytosine, that pair up together, and adenosine and thymidine, which also pair up together. Adenosine and guanosine are called purines. Cytosine, thymidine and uradine are called pyrimidines. RNA is similar to DNA, (the sugar component is ribose instead of deoxyribose), except that the molecule uradine replaces thymine in that pair, and RNA is an intermediary between DNA and protein. A gene is a discrete sequence of DNA nucleotides, and genes are what make up our chromosomes. So, it makes sense that genes are made of DNA.

While all of this sounds very technical, what you need to understand is that nucleotides are molecules that are essential to the creation of new DNA and RNA molecules which are then used by new cells of all kinds. This is important because nucleotides, either by themselves, or in combination with other molecules, are involved in almost all activities of the cell (and therefore, the body).

So, what exactly makes nucleotides so important? For a cat, human, dog, or other animal to continue to live, grow and develop, it must create new cells all the time, to replace dying cells. Millions of cells must be made every minute, just to maintain the body as it is. These cells all must use nucleotides to make new cells, relying on DNA and RNA to correctly multiply cells. Nucleotides are used for creating cells, replacing cells, including developing immune cells, developing sperm cells and embryos and supporting the female reproductive tract.

Which tissues and cells require the largest numbers of nucleotides?  While all cells require large numbers of nucleotides, some cells, including red blood cells, white blood cells, intestinal cells, bone marrow cells and some brain cells cannot make (or produce enough) nucleotides to cover their requirements. Nucleotides are essential for the proper functioning of the immune system, for cell repair after injury or disease and to help prevent disease. Stress can also increase the need for nucleotides, which are necessary for overcoming the negative effects of hormones released (during stress), for building up the immune system.

Since we now know that nucleotides are essential in repairing and replacing cells, we must now ask, where do these nucleotides come from?  Many tissues are not able to manufacture (via synthesis) the nucleotides called purines. If an animal cannot produce adequate nucleotides, they must then absorb them from foods they have eaten. Some foods are higher in usable nucleotides than others.  But, in most normal foods, the amounts of usable nucleotides are quite low, compared to the need for them. Relatively high concentrations of nucleotides are found in intestines of animals, and also in bacterial and yeast cultures, none of which, obviously, are usually consumed. So, normally, for an animal to get their requirement of dietary nucleotides from food, they will need to break down the complex cellular structures that make up that food we eat. There are numerous steps and enzymes that are necessary to break food down to the basic structure of individual nucleotides.  You can imagine that this is a rather time consuming and inefficient process, when there is a high demand for nucleotides, at times of stress, disease/toxin challenge, or reproduction.

The foods containing nucleotides, could be described as DNA Food, as they have abundant available purified nucleotides in them, which allows an animal to absorb and utilize all that they need almost immediately. The fact that these foods contain abundant nucleotides is one of the factors that make them unique and so beneficial to the health of our pets. By supplying abundant nucleotides, the immune system will be able to function at peak efficiency, the liver will be better able to repair itself after insult from toxins (for example, from toxins produced by harmful bacteria), and other tissues will be able to repair themselves after injury.

How do we know that nucleotides can do these things? Studies have been performed on humans, birds and mice that have shown remarkable benefits to added nucleotides in the foods. A study was performed on chickens, challenging them with the Newcastle’s Disease virus, and birds fed a food with a commercial preparation of nucleotides before and during the challenge with the virus had a much higher survival rate than those fed a normal poultry feed.

The supplementation of nucleotides will increase the resistance to bacterial infections in animals and humans. This was demonstrated in another study that was performed on mice. Mice were exposed to a pathogenic (disease-causing) strain of Staphylococcus aureus bacteria. The group fed a regular rodent feed experienced a 100% mortality rate.  Those fed differing amounts of increased nucleotides in their feed had much higher survival rates: 53% mortality in a group fed .25% RNA in the feed, 74% mortality in a group fed 0.06% adenine, and 58% mortality in a group fed 0.06% uracil. This is very exciting research and what it means is that instead of 100% of mice dying after being infected with the Staph bacteria, of those fed additional uracil only, 42% survived the infection, with no additional treatment with antibiotics or other care.

Toxins are a big concern for pet owners, as these toxins can be present in many ingredients. Toxins of one form or another are responsible for many pet food recalls. Toxins cannot be seen, tasted or smelled.  Studies were performed on poultry and pigs, fed either a standard feed, or one supplemented with nucleotides. The results showed that the livers of the animals fed additional nucleotides had significantly lower levels of mycotoxins than those fed a standard feed. Also, toxins levels in the feces of the supplemented animals were higher than standard-fed animals, showing that they were able to excrete more toxins than the control group.

Additional Benefits

There are other studies that show additional benefits from the supplementation of the diet with nucleotides.

Benefits include:

• increased resistance to challenge to bacterial and viral infections
• acceleration of antibody production
• increase in white blood cells called neutrophils
• increase in the number of macrophages
• increased effectiveness of vaccinations
• reversal of malnutrition and starvation-induced immuno suppression
• increase in natural killer (NK) cell activity and interleukin-2 production
• increase of plasma HDL cholesterol (“good” cholesterol)
• decrease in the concentration of LDL cholesterol (“bad”  cholesterol)
• reduction in lactic acid build-up in blood after endurance exercise
• increase in red blood cell production
• decrease in glucose level and increased survival rate (with diabetes)
• faster recovery of the liver after injury
• effective detoxification from e.g. Toxins by the liver
• positive effects on the intestines
• improved feed conversion and nutrient uptake
• intestinal repair after diarrhea
• positive effects of recovery from stress
• increase in fertility
• higher quality embryos

There are scientific studies to demonstrate all of these positive effects.
The nucleotides are extracted from brewers yeast and in their purified form have a very sticky taffy type texture. Because of this texture they are sprayed back onto DE-bittered human grade brewers yeast and then incorporated back into the cat food diet. The label declaration is brewers yeast, but that does not mean that every time you see brewers yeast that they are incorporating free nucleotides in the formula. I would ask the company for a declaration in PPM (parts per million). As far as I know no other company is using free nucleotides. Most studies above were done at 500PPM. We use 1000-2000PPM depending on the diet.

 

[louisevn]

It would be a pity if we stopped using an effective treatment because of small clinical trials. You can read the whole paper if you click through. Only one study was done on clinically sick cats, the rest was done on food supplementation with lysine: 51mg or 17 mgs - for prevention purposes, for which it was ineffective.

Also, the article said that lysine was dangerous as it drops arginine levels, but that is not true according to the research paper.   "Plasma arginine levels remained unchanged at any of the lysine concentrations tested. Based on these results we conclude that, in the cat, excess lysine in the diet is unable to lower arginine levels in plasma. Similarly, Ball et al. concluded that there is no lysine-arginine antagonism in cats [33]."

It would be a pity if we stopped using a highly effective method based on small clinical trials. It is also worth mentioning that this thread recommends 1000mg lysine every 12 hours, which was not done in the one clinical trial on 50 sick cats. The cats in the trial were given 1000mg once a day, which we know from personal experience to not be as effective.

The biggest threat to cats is the possibility that they may stop eating if the have nasal blockages. The viral infection in itself will clear up eventually by itself. But we like to get them well as soon as we can if they are not eating to prevent fatty liver, which can be fatal very fast. We also like them to stop shedding the virus as fast as possible in order not to infect other cats. It is not fun to have 5 sneezing, snotty cats... For me personally 4 out of 5 cats responds very fast to lysine treatment, one guy probably has lower immunity and takes a bit longer. Good enough for me!

But here is one very important point I want to make, which I know you fellow cat lovers will detest as much as I do: healthy cats were inoculated in some of these trials with the virus, and that I find completely unacceptable, detestable and morally intolerable.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4647294/

(Ps. I am a Medical Tecnologist/Microbiologist)

 

[Anne]

 
Yes I agree - that is why I stipulated that it must be safe for humans under 2 years.As human kids under 2 years lack the same enzymes cats lack, medications which are safe for them, is safe for cats.And it is always safer to check and double check. Anyways, a very helpful tip if you ever nearly lost a cat who refused to eat because of congestion.

Sorry for jumping in so late but I read through this thread this morning and had to respond to this, especially following@Angels mommy  response. 

I'm sorry but that is not a good rule to follow to determine what is and isn't safe for cats. Babies can handle some medications that cats cannot. Paracetamol (tylenol) and Ibuprofen (advil) come to mind. Both given liberally to babies as young as a few weeks old. Toxic to cats even in tiny amounts.

Specifically for homeopathy, sugar, salt or alcohol used in the remedies can all be dangerous to cats. The sugar and salt mostly with recurrent use. Water-based remedies can be contaminated unless they contain preservatives. Please be careful with what you give your cats. I would avoid giving anything that doesn't have a proven efficacy and safety record and that includes pretty much all alternative treatments. If you must supplement, please consult with your veterinarian first to make sure there are no contraindications for your cat's specific illness or current medications.

I also want to remind everyone about our rules regarding dispensing any kind of medical advice on the board. What worked for you and your cat may not necessarily work for another cat. Feel free to share your own experiences and opinions but avoid suggesting any kind of treatment for others. More about that here - 

 [thread="181417"]About Providing Medical Advice On This Board​[/thread]  

 

[louisevn]

You are right. It is better to clarify that it is always advisable to check with your vet before giving anything. It is factually correct that babies and cats lack the same enzymes (advised by vet), but check, check, check before giving anything! I only ever give human baby meds if suggested by vet. And until someone can suggest anything better to clear up blocked noses, using a homeopathic nasal spay approved by my vet is my go to thing. I would like to clarify that  our cats are very lucky to have excellent regular vets, but absolutely blessed by having a homeopathic vet too.

 

[whatever]

Question...Can I give my cat Lysine if she is on Cosequin?   Both together or one in the morning and one evening?    thanks,   whatever

 

[angels mommy]

Question...Can I give my cat Lysine if she is on Cosequin?   Both together or one in the morning and one evening?    thanks,   whatever

Yes, no problem. Angel was on both at the same time. No issues.
Two totally different things. Lysine helps boost the immune system, & the cosequine for joints & any inflammation. (Angel was originally given it when he had cystitis, to help the bladder Inflammation) but once that was over, I kept him on it for good measure, as he was 11 then.

 

[jennyr]

Question...Can I give my cat Lysine if she is on Cosequin?   Both together or one in the morning and one evening?    thanks,   whatever

My Dushka has taken both for two years. My vet is happy about it.