Kittens, Raw and Clostridium - safety?

[ldg]

Hun, why not just empty out half the capsule of SB to give to Ava (and the same for Kato), since you'll have empty capsules arriving so you can use the powder you emptied out?

As to the couch cleaning, do you have cushions on the couch that can be removed? I pulled the cushions, took them outside, generally doused the area with the enzyme cleaner, and let them sit for about half an hour. I squished out what I could, and let them dry in the sun. It still took about three dousings/dryings. The problem is that urine wicks - so until you get enough enzyme cleaner to all the places the pee went, the problem doesn't resolve. If you don't have cushions that can be removed... it'll take a lot longer.

 

[tammyp]

Yeah, gah.   I ditched the pillows and cushions.  So I'm just left with the couch...it's going to take some time!

How do I 'undo' a capsule then 'reseal' with the reduced amount?  I'm not sure it will work, as those capsules are just so huge!  But all info is worth it.  Thankfully, the butter paste method is working...for BOTH cats!  Ava showed Kato the 'right' response, and he has now had 2 doses thus far...

 

[carolina]

Yeah, gah.   I ditched the pillows and cushions.  So I'm just left with the couch...it's going to take some time!

How do I 'undo' a capsule then 'reseal' with the reduced amount?  I'm not sure it will work, as those capsules are just so huge!  But all info is worth it.  Thankfully, the butter paste method is working...for BOTH cats!  Ava showed Kato the 'right' response, and he has now had 2 doses thus far...

It is very easy! I open and close capsules all-the-time. You just open them carefully, dump half of the contents, and put the top back on closing it tightly. That's all.....
And you will be surprised at the size of pills/capsules/meat/things cats can eat :lol3:
It will not be a problem - just smear the top side of the capsule in butter (after you close it) if you want to make it easier for them to swallow, and put it all the way in the back of their throats.

My cats will swallow big pieces of meat - with little to no chewing. A capsule is nothing....

 

[ldg]

It is very easy! I open and close capsules all-the-time. You just open them carefully, dump half of the contents, and put the top back on closing it tightly. That's all.....
And you will be surprised at the size of pills/capsules/meat/things cats can eat :lol3:
It will not be a problem - just smear the top side of the capsule in butter (after you close it) if you want to make it easier for them to swallow, and put it all the way in the back of their throats.

My cats will swallow big pieces of meat - with little to no chewing. A capsule is nothing....

You just kind of... twist them a bit, back and forth and they open easily. Closing them is easy - just put the top back on.

Aw, sorry about the couch. Yeah - you just have to keep at it. The PIA is the drying..... we always just put a layer of aluminum foil down and a throw blanket over it when we wanted to sit on the couch.

 

[tammyp]

Agreed with the PIA part being the drying!  Also, the product smell is giving me a headache, so I misted the couch with vinegar today and it's a bit better.

The good news update:  SB butter paste is working with both cats!!!  We also only have 3 more days of the extra medicine - the anti parasitic (a liquid).  Dave is helping me with that one, so nearly all is going down.

All else is as it was.  I'm up a few times in the night to clean stinky runny poos.  No more pees other than in the box phew! (back to the regime of eagle eyes, cat blankets over the bed, and putting away all the cushions and pillows, especially once we wake up. A new feliway is also on).  

Had a horror day the other day with stepped in poo, Kato objecting to having his feet washed, jacknifing on me and swiping off my glasses so I was left blind in the shower with a struggling cat and with the shower hose watering the rest of the bathroom!  I also had a poo-paw scratch down my nose.  Dave came to the rescue, and just as I was finished showering, repeat the whole scenario (sans struggles and scratches) with Ava!  3 loads of washing that day.

But I'm also enjoying lots of loves and snuggles!

 

[katecat]

what raw food are you feeding, or are you making your own?

 

[tammyp]

Hi Katecat, I feed a frankenprey diet (so 'make my own').  At the moment it is more 50% canned, 50% raw, simply because we were having problems tempting them to eat.  The joys of illness!

 

[katecat]

I've got young kitties so they always eat very enthusiastically, but the Rad Cat seems to be a real winner with cats of all ages (not just mine).

 

[tammyp]

Yeah, you guys have a lot  of commercial options - i'm yet to find one acceptable one over here in Australia.  But that's ok, Kato and Ava mostly love their raw and I know what it is in it, and how fresh it is - day of the kill.  Which is why I don't think the illness has a high likelihood of coming from the raw, but hey, could have had bad luck.  Don't even know if it IS Clostridium P...

I think the anti-parasitic is actually working for them!!!

The canned food just has bigger smelliness - and that tempts them to eat, especially as Kato was also coming off cat flu and couldn't really tell food by smell until I shoved canned literally under his nose!

 

[tammyp]

Second day of....

SOLID POOS!!! (and reduced stink)

Ava has still vomited the last two mornings, but very little and mostly clear stuff.  She invariably does it while sleeping between Dave's legs, so there's a mad, half asleep, blind (me), head crashing moment where we both hear the hacking and dive to try and get her off the bed and to the door where the wood floor starts lol!  Add in a startled awake Kato scramble to the mix for the full picture...

 

[katecat]

I wasn't aware you were in Australia, and of course wouldn't know what is available to you there! The more you can feed your cats in a way that replicates what they eat in the wild, the better. I'm sure you are doing the very best you can. So sorry your kitty got sick.

 

[tammyp]

Sigh, celebrated too soon

 

[carolina]

Tammy, I made a video for you of how I make my meat pockets. I am sorry about my horrible face in the video - I look awful..... Bad angle, bad concentration face..... But oh well - that's not what the video is about. It is long, but it should be helpful.

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]

 

[tammyp]

Oh WOW!!! Thank you SO much!  (and I'm sure you don't have a horrible face!)

We are having success with the butter paste SB delivery method, and both have consistently received their doses for 1.5weeks.  They still don't like it, but at least it's getting IN.  Unfortunately, not seeing any evidence of improving health for Ava...8 runny/mixed and stinky poos yesterday, including the night (not many lengthy patches of sleep).

Kato has been well since Sunday...hoping he won't relapse like Ava.

 

[ldg]

Aw, poor Ava! :rub: :heart2:

tammyp, I'm wondering if part of the problem at this point is just that her GI tract is so inflamed from the C. perf and virus that her body just needs a rest and some anti-inflammatory help. :dk:

I don't know your relationship with the vet, or your ability to access slippery elm bark powder, but this is what I'd probably be doing at this point, and perhaps discuss this with the vet:

Fast her for 24 hours.
Feed her bland food - cooked chicken in broth for 4-5 days.

If you can find slippery elm bark powder, I'd use 1/4 teaspoon of slippery elm bark powder mixed with the chicken broth or water (let it gel up), and if she won't eat it mixed into the chicken broth, I guess use a little canned food to help hide the taste (it's got a sweet taste for humans, but cats don't taste sweet - some like SEB, others don't. :dk: ). I'd give her the SEB mixture 2x a day for a week or two - basically see how it goes and if you need it that long. :cross:

I'd also continue using the acidophilus supplement (in addition to the S. boulardii) - because keeping the gut populated with healthy bacteria helps it heal from inflammation. You might also want to consider boosting the amount of S. boulardii she's getting? :dk:

But at this point, I'd be considering using one mode of feeding: either all raw, or all canned. And if the "system reset" doesn't stop the diarrhea, I'd be considering feeding her novel proteins, or experimenting with fat levels...

...and if you're not keeping a journal, I'd start one, to see if there's any relationship between what's fed and what comes out.

But I'm guessing the issue is now is inflammation. The question is - can it be resolved with easy steps, or is there some type of as-yet-unidentified issue or food sensitivity that's contributing to it?

 

[tammyp]

Thanks for your thoughts LDG.  We're all off to the vet tomorrow - Kato has relapsed into flu.  

Ava has had a self imposed fasting day today - no interest in food, a few vomits, one poo and vomit at the same time, and much cuddling.  I think she is feeling pretty bad, actually, they both are.  

It's also really cold, which probably isn't helping (we had 2 degrees celcius last night...which is freezing cold for us, particularly with no interior heating).  Towards morning, at the coldest point, I ended up with an Ava wrapped over my neck, and a Kato wedged on my feet.

I sure hope we can get well soon...!!

 

[ldg]

Is Kato on lysine normally?

Please let us now how it goes....

 

[tammyp]

Nope, no lysine.

Dave and I are feeling quite wiped out from the vet visit today!  We were there for 1.5hrs; lots of talking, tests, treatment etc.  Both cats are now being treated for cox...something - a bacteria.  There was lots of yeast in Ava's sample (which we expected with SB!)  And maybe a couple shapes like this cox...whatever.  The last PCR test we have does not test for this.  Ava was a lovely purr-pudding with the vet.  Poor Kato was a different story.

Kato growled and hissed the whole time he was (dragged) out of his cage - Dave was there to help out, and held him while he had 4 capsules - and got bitten.  Our vet was AMAZING the way she got those pills down, he is that bad.  He also was examined for his flu, had his gummy eye examined with a fluro liquid...again, totally amazing work getting his eye irrigated and then washed out considering his carry on.  The good news is he does not have an ulcer on his eye - it looks like the same flu has come back, and a bacterial infection in his throat.  So he is on antibiotics for that, and an anti-inflam to help out with pain.  He has also put on 340g in the last month!! (He's not been his super bunny self, and more canned to raw balance).

We talked diet, and will be on all raw with Ava and Kato - bar one meal where they will have priobotics/anti-inflam in canned.  We are also going to try Ava on a 'boring' single type of protein diet (rabbit) - until she goes on strike again, and then we will switch in some roo and duck.  Her canned will also be this protein source.  We're pretty certain the tummy upset  is not dietary, but the aim is to jsut make it easiest for her poor system to digest food and get some benefit.  She has only put on about half the expected weight a kitten should over the last 2 weeks.  So, of course, we are still delaying her flu shots (!!), and that will also push back desexing.

We've decided to stop the SB at this point; there just was no improvement and administering it was stressful for them.  Sad, but at this point in time, I'm also relieved.

Fingers, and all things that can cross, crossed...

 

[ldg]

So are they on antibiotics?

Poor Kato. Poor Ava too, but clearly it's not AS stressful for her, seeing the vet. :rub:

!!!!!!

 

[tammyp]

No, no antibiotics for the tummy thing (Kato is on antibiotics for the flu complications).  I actually can't remember, or wasnt told the name of the medicine - other than it is NOT an antibiotic (I was asking about stripping/stress to the gut).  It is administered in capsules that the vet makes up quickly - the liquid medicine dissolves the capsules, so speed is needed, and capsules are needed as it tastes awful.  Ava will get another dose in 5 days (Kato may not - as his dose was much much bigger, and considering how much stress goes on...!).  And yes, thankfully, vet visits for Ava are not too bad - she was even purring when she had her temp taken!!

There have actually been no poos for over 24hrs....well, one, and I'm not sure who it was from, but it was HARD and small.  Ava is not very active though, and has had 2 vomits, and has been light on in her eating.

I was terrified when I came back to the house after going out to grab a coffee, and there was a MASSIVE vomit all over the litterbox step tray thing.  I thought it was Ava, and she was deteriorating terribly.  But after sitting and just cuddling her for half and hour, I thought it through, and realised it was just too big for her (considering she had already done two) - then went to do the clean up and investigate the contents more closely.  Phew.  It was from Kato - unfortunately, probably because he cleaned her while I was gone and licked the recently applied flea medicine!  Man, more things to consider with more than one cat...a day of separation each month to let the flea medicine settle...