Kitten breathing normal?

[trishia42]

Adopted a pair of kittens about a month ago who were rescued from a cat colony outside. They are now about 4 months old but we have noticed the female breathes a little oddly - that is she breathes faster than expected when at full rest, but also somewhat forcefully and irregularly... Here's a video where she was pretty much asleep (and not purring);



We did mention it at the vet appointment we had at the one-week mark but since we only had them for a week, we weren't sure it was anything to be concerned about and the vet didn't seem to think so. We have a follow-up appointment for the third boosters this week and we do plan on asking but were seeking opinions in the meantime... She is a bit smaller than her brother, but his breathing is within what I would expect it to be. She is certainly not lethargic (that kitten is constantly in a zoomy state), eating well, and all other normal kitten behaviours. Normally, I think we would just monitor but we are especially worried about the upcoming spay procedure she should be getting in around two months.

Am I just paranoid and worrying for nothing here? Not sure I want to spend a ton of money on diagnostics if this is not something I should be worried about in the first place? Not even sure where we would start with that one either?

Thanks for reading.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

While she is resting have you measured her breaths per minute? On average they should be between 15 and 30.
I like to measure BPM while my kitty is asleep. What I do is set a stop watch on my phone then count every breath for 30 seconds. You will count each time her belly expands (ie her breathing in)

In your video she is measuring about 22 at the 30 second mark which would be 44.. so this is high. You said she was pretty much asleep. I would get her breaths per minute while she is fully asleep. And see what you come up with.

Does she always have times where her breaths quicken when she is sleeping?
I would get more recordings before her appointment this week and talk to your vet about it.

It can't hurt to get some recordings of her breathing while she is sleeping to show the vet and see what they say about it. If it is nothing then at least you would know for sure but if it is something to keep an eye on at least the vet will tell you everything of which you should watch for.

If I notice any abnormalities with my kitty, I will record any and all episodes then I will and I write everything down in a health journal this way I don't forget anything that needs discussed with the vet.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I agree with all of the above. The other thing to do is ask the vet what tests they would run before she is spayed. I am not sure with kittens what all they do, but with adult cats they will run bloodwork (CBC & Chemistry panel), a urinalysis, and an EKG to look for things that might be an issue with sedation.

 

[trishia42]

Thank you for the replies. When she is fully asleep, her breathing rate has been as low as 28-30 breaths/minute but sometimes it's higher too (I've been tracking every chance I get with an app). I've gotten a couple of videos but it's been very hard as this kitten is pretty much in constant zoomies mode except if she is fully asleep in the middle of the night (in which case I can't get a video because if I move and the light on my phone goes on, she'll wake up). But apart the rate, I also found the force and irregularity a bit disturbing - I also feel it's pretty much constant for her? I may also be extra sensitive because we lost our two cats of 15 and 16 years in 2022 and the second one had fluid overload at some point which had made me obsessive about watching breathing patterns.

I do plan on asking about pre-screening tests; I'm actually not sure how they work - do they do them a few days before so the surgery can be cancelled if need be? I know we were hoping to have them tested for coronavirus since they tested positive as young kittens, and I would prefer they test negative before we put them through the stress of surgery to decrease the risk of FIP. I do like the idea of an EKG; I'm unsure if an x-ray would also be useful (I realize ultrasound/echo is probably best but they tend to be pretty expensive as well, and I don't want to spend a ton if it's just paranoia). I feel we will be dismissed at our appointment tomorrow - last time we were just told "he couldn't hear any heart murmur so probably no issues" but I know that heart murmurs are not always present with heart issues, that they sometimes aren't heart until the cat is older, and that hearing a murmur alone seems highly subjective depending on the vet. I can't lose this little girl; her brother would not take it well at all.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

I also noticed the irregularities in her breathing in the video. I will tell you this.. if you go in there tomorrow and they don't look at the videos, or even if they do watch them and they still totally dismiss any concern you have... I would then decide it would be time to go to a different vet in a different office.

I'm not sure if an xray would be the route to go or if it would have to be an ultrasound.. I think S silent meowlook will have better advice on that than me..

Seriously though.. a vet should never just dismiss your concerns. They should listen to those concerns and discuss any information about what those concerns are. I honestly feel bad that they blew you off last time and only listened for a heart murmur. The fact that he listened to her heart and said "he couldn't hear any heart murmur so probably no issues" without looking further into it makes me a little upset.

Anyway I feel like every vet should be thorough and really discuss the possibilities and treatments.. your vet could have at least offered an ekg or ultrasound or some kind of testing instead of only listening to her heart..

So if it were me and you go in tomorrow and this vet doesn't further investigate or if he sees the video and just blows it off please get a second opinion..

I'd keep trying during today or tomorrow before her appointment to get at least 2 more videos. If you can't though don't stress it the one you have is a great video and shows her breathing abnormally and quickly..

 

[FeebysOwner]

I do plan on asking about pre-screening tests; I'm actually not sure how they work - do they do them a few days before so the surgery can be cancelled if need be? I know we were hoping to have them tested for coronavirus since they tested positive as young kittens, and I would prefer they test negative before we put them through the stress of surgery to decrease the risk of FIP.

When they do pre-surgical testing might vary by vet, but I am pretty sure it is a few days in advance. But your vet owes it to you to pay attention to the concerns you have about your kitten's breathing, and test accordingly. I sure hope they do!

There is no point in retesting for coronavirus. Once a cat tests positive, they will always test positive. And, as I am sure you know, just because a cat has coronavirus does not mean they are doomed to have it mutate to FIP. I think the percentage of cats that do is under 5% or so. And, yet about 80% of cats have the coronavirus. Yes, it is more common to happen in young cats under the age of 2, and in older cats because the immune system hasn't fully developed in the young one and has been weakened due to age with the older ones.

 

[trishia42]

Thank you - it's good to hear it's not just me being paranoid! I know I have a tendency to worry about every little thing since the other two where every little thing turned out to be a big thing.

I'm not opposed to going to a different vet; this is actually a new vet for us and the only reason we are going there is because the spay/neuter surgery is covered as it was included in the price when we adopted from the rescue. So the plan was to finish the vaccination series, go through the spay/neuter and then most likely switch to a cat-specialized vet after that but I certainly would not want to risk losing her; my heart could not take it - only a month with us and I'm already so much in love with both of them. My husband will be with me tomorrow and we'll certainly push some to get more information and go from there; I don't think we'd be doing the surgeries before another 2 months or so (they're currently about 4 months old), so that should give us a bit of time. We can also do the boy first to avoid any, er, unpleasant surprises.

 

[trishia42]

Really, I was under the impression that most cats would shed FCoV for up to 10 months or so unless they ended up being chronic shedders and that since stress can increase the viral load that can also increase the probability of the virus mutating? These were strays outdoors previously, so it seems the risk is higher between 10-15% depending on the literature you come across (and the geography).

Feline Infectious Peritonitis (Feline Coronavirus)

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

file:///D:/DESKTOP/preprints202301.0408.v1.pdf

 

[FeebysOwner]

A cat will still carry the virus for a lifetime, whether or not they are shedding. The virus lies dormant in most cats but can be activated with various conditions that might compromise the immune system, and I suppose spaying/neutering could be one of those conditions. The antibody titer level of the virus through testing, if higher might indicate the cat is shedding and therefore more capable of passing the virus onto other cats and may provoke some sort of reaction in that cat as well. But, even then, it is not an automatic indicator that the virus is mutating to FIP. Same goes for the RT-PCR test.

I am pretty sure a cat that has previously contracted FCoV will never have an absolute negative antibody titer test, although I have heard of it happening on rare occasions.

Feline Coronavirus (FCoV) RT-PCR | Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine
Do Cats Carry The Feline Coronavirus For Life? (catbreedslist.com)
Correlation of Feline Coronavirus Shedding in Feces with Coronavirus Antibody Titer - PMC (nih.gov)

 

[trishia42]

Saw the vet today and we weren't dismissed. She spent a lot of time listening to her heart and her lungs but couldn't hear anything amiss at all. Still, she agreed that the breathing patterns were a little out of the ordinary and her first step suggestion was an x-ray in order to get a better picture of her heart. I think she's a fairly new vet as she went back to show the video to another vet in the back who thought that the x-rays should also include the abdominal cavity since she thought perhaps a diaphragmatic hernia could be a possibility. Their x-ray machine was down, so it was suggested that either we call next week to see if the issues were resolved or call their sister clinic to see if they could fit us in for just the x-ray.

So now of course, I wish I hadn't researched those words because reddit is full of stories of cats not making it either during the surgery or shortly after due to complications and I'm trying very, very hard not to freak out before we know more but I have to admit that after everything we went through with our two previous cats in 2022, I'm definitely very paranoid and feel like I must be a curse upon all cats.

Thank you for validating my concerns though - it definitely help me push the issue with more confidence.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

T trishia42 it makes me feel a lot better knowing that they really heard your concerns and really are investigating thoroughly.
I am sorry that the possible diagnosis is a scary one. I would try to relax and take it a day at a time until her next appointment. I know it's way easier said than done especially when it comes to our fur babies. I am extremely happy you were able to get recordings of her breathing as it helped show the vet that something is amiss. The fact that she got a second opinion is also a good sign that they are really taking your concerns to heart. Is this the same vet she saw last time? If so I think with not seeing the breathing and only listening to her she probably thought it was fine. I can understand that a little.. but they should have listened a little better last time to your concerns. At any rate that is neither here nor there. The point is that they listened today and are going to be taking steps to figure it all out.

Like I said try to stay calm, we don't know for sure if that is what it is.. try to stay in the now with your kitty and try to not get worked up.. although nearly impossible I know but just try.

Are you going to go to the sister clinic or wait until next week and call your normal vet?

 

[trishia42]

This was a different vet (seemed fairly new) - over here due to vet shortage, it is typical that you will usually see a different vet at the practice every time you book. This has some disadvantages as well as advantages. In defense of the first vet, we didn't really push the issue, but we had only had the two kittens for one week, so we weren't sure if it was just excitement and stress since I think this was the third time they were moved in less than two months.

We are trying to get the x-rays done at the sister clinic although the first clinic requested I call, and since they don't share records, the sister clinic had to request the records from the first and of course, the information wasn't there so it appears there is some back and forth in there. I followed up today and most likely will follow up again tomorrow.

Thank you for the kind comments!

 

[heatherwillard0614]

This was a different vet (seemed fairly new) - over here due to vet shortage, it is typical that you will usually see a different vet at the practice every time you book. This has some disadvantages as well as advantages. In defense of the first vet, we didn't really push the issue, but we had only had the two kittens for one week, so we weren't sure if it was just excitement and stress since I think this was the third time they were moved in less than two months.

We are trying to get the x-rays done at the sister clinic although the first clinic requested I call, and since they don't share records, the sister clinic had to request the records from the first and of course, the information wasn't there so it appears there is some back and forth in there. I followed up today and most likely will follow up again tomorrow.

Thank you for the kind comments!

There are a lot of vets at the clinic I go to that usually do a rotation but I always request one lady if she isn't available there is 1 other vet ill see. Is there anyway to request who you would want? If you find one you and the kittens really like could you have it in their files to see one specific person each time?

It is good that they did listen to you guys though. Some vets just want people in and out. They are the ones who should look for a different profession in my opinion..

I hope you can get her seen soon for her xrays. Please keep us posted. Your little furbaby and your family are in my thoughts.

 

[trishia42]

Yeah, we went to a different clinic with our previous cats and were sometimes able to see the same vet if it was in advance, but more pressing appointments were a bit trickier for sure - most clinics here are generally overbooked and most vets tend to work at more than one clinic and even if it's a "sister" clinic, they don't tend to share records. We are at this specific clinic currently because that's where the spay/neuter surgery was included (from the rescue adoption fee), but we were thinking of going somewhere else after that so this is most likely just temporary. I think we may try the cat-only clinic that is in our city, but there is a bit of a waiting list so for now I'm at least hoping to figure out what is going on with her - if it's what they think it is, then we'll most likely be looking for a board-certified veterinary surgeon who has experience so that will most likely be another clinic.

She's currently tearing up the house in a complete with her brother as I try to work on my laptop : ). They're such a lovely bonded pair - I can't bear the thought of anything bad happening to either of them.

Again, thank you for the support - it does mean a lot.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

Yeah, we went to a different clinic with our previous cats and were sometimes able to see the same vet if it was in advance, but more pressing appointments were a bit trickier for sure - most clinics here are generally overbooked and most vets tend to work at more than one clinic and even if it's a "sister" clinic, they don't tend to share records. We are at this specific clinic currently because that's where the spay/neuter surgery was included (from the rescue adoption fee), but we were thinking of going somewhere else after that so this is most likely just temporary. I think we may try the cat-only clinic that is in our city, but there is a bit of a waiting list so for now I'm at least hoping to figure out what is going on with her - if it's what they think it is, then we'll most likely be looking for a board-certified veterinary surgeon who has experience so that will most likely be another clinic.

She's currently tearing up the house in a complete with her brother as I try to work on my laptop : ). They're such a lovely bonded pair - I can't bear the thought of anything bad happening to either of them.

Again, thank you for the support - it does mean a lot.

The vet clinics all around here and next state over which is where I go are all overbooked a lot of them can't even take new patients... it's crazy they are all overbooked and understaffed its kind of sad. But they make their clinics work the best they can. I actually found a great clinic that I love and the vet we see is amazing with our girl.

I really hope everything works out. Hopefully it isn't too bad and she won't need surgery.. but she will need a specialist more than likely either way.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

T trishia42 hello I wanted to check in and see how things are going. I am really hoping things are going well.

 

[trishia42]

Thank you for checking in. After a few calls, we were able to get her x-rays on Friday.

There was no evidence of a diagphragmatic hernia but unfortunately, her heart appears enlarged (VHS 9), and most concerning has a significant deviation/lump to the right atrium, which would be indicative of a congenital heart defect like a septal or valve defect. She suggested we get an echocardiogram but that we watch for any signs of cyanosis, wheezing, panting, etc. as depending on the heart defect, sudden CHF was possible, although no fluid was detected at the time. She also noticed a cranio-ventral alveolar lung pattern typical of pneumonia (like aspiration, which I don't know how she would have gotten, or potentially bronchopneumonia, which also seems unlikely given the total lack of other symptoms over the ~month we've had her) so she is on a one-week course of antibiotics in case but I have to wonder if it's not related to the heart.

Given that the prognosis for congenital heart defects is fairly poor - often weeks to months - we are absolutely devastated. The idea that she won't get to grow up to be a cat or know love for years to come... Not to mention that her brother and her are so close; they keep looking for each other, interacting with each other, touching noses (!!) - the thought that he will look for her and not find her is just so very heartbreaking.

I've already reached out to the cardiologist's office and forwarded the report and x-rays and the clinic is to follow up with a referral as well, but I find it very hard to keep it together. She's just so young and just so sweet.

 

[heatherwillard0614]

Thank you for checking in. After a few calls, we were able to get her x-rays on Friday.

There was no evidence of a diagphragmatic hernia but unfortunately, her heart appears enlarged (VHS 9), and most concerning has a significant deviation/lump to the right atrium, which would be indicative of a congenital heart defect like a septal or valve defect. She suggested we get an echocardiogram but that we watch for any signs of cyanosis, wheezing, panting, etc. as depending on the heart defect, sudden CHF was possible, although no fluid was detected at the time. She also noticed a cranio-ventral alveolar lung pattern typical of pneumonia (like aspiration, which I don't know how she would have gotten, or potentially bronchopneumonia, which also seems unlikely given the total lack of other symptoms over the ~month we've had her) so she is on a one-week course of antibiotics in case but I have to wonder if it's not related to the heart.

Given that the prognosis for congenital heart defects is fairly poor - often weeks to months - we are absolutely devastated. The idea that she won't get to grow up to be a cat or know love for years to come... Not to mention that her brother and her are so close; they keep looking for each other, interacting with each other, touching noses (!!) - the thought that he will look for her and not find her is just so very heartbreaking.

I've already reached out to the cardiologist's office and forwarded the report and x-rays and the clinic is to follow up with a referral as well, but I find it very hard to keep it together. She's just so young and just so sweet.

Hopefully the cardiologist can get her in for an appointment very soon. She will be in my thoughts and prayers. Please keep us posted.

 

[MillieJ]

Hi just checking in, any updates?

 

[trishia42]

Thank you so much for the follow-ups! We were setup with an appointment for an echocardiogram and cardiology consult next Monday but we got in last Wednesday on a cancellation: HER HEART IS FINE.

The relief we felt is beyond words, I think I almost cried. Although the right atrium did look enlarged on the x-ray, her "heart was structurally normal with no evidence of underlying congenital heart disease" - the cardiologist also thought that the pneumonia pattern that was observed could have been the thymus, which can be a bit larger in kittens. As for her breathing fast; apparently that's just what appears to be normal for her I guess.

It was the best feeling to be able to watch the two of them play together this week-end without this heavy cloud of worry. Now of course, on to the stress of having them spayed/neutered and hope nothing goes wrong there; I might be a bit paranoid about everything.

Thank you again for the concern and kind words.