Instigation

[justjayde]

Kismet (2 weeks ago) started this new behavior and I am a bit stumped how to make him stop...

He will start with a gentle bite or two - to try and instigate me into wrestling with him (which I don't do bare handed so I never "comply"). If I don't comply he will start to attack me (bite) the way you see one cat try to instigate another to wrestle/play.

I have told him NO when he does it, he ignores me.

I have SCRUFFED him and told him no when he does it, this just makes it worse.

I have scruffed and forced him down into a laying position, which also makes it worse.

I have tried redirected (other toys ), it doesn't work.

I have tried to "play him out" before 10 am so he is too tired to attack, but it doesn't work (plus some mornings I am too busy working to spend a solid 2 hrs tiring him out lol )

He will leap at my face if I don't catch him... and he has a very DELIBERATE look in his face like he is mad and wants to fight. (the same look that multi-cat-houses cat looks when they try to instigate a good rough housing session. I know WHY he is doing it and I understand it but I need to know how to train him it is NOT ok ). I have never had a cat this INTENT on attack/play/play aggression.

Today I blocked him with my arm (I have a thick sweat shirt on thankfully) and told him NO! I grabbed my squirt bottle and he backed down almost instantly.

I will also try a HISS at him (( I am really good at hissing like a cat - and use it ONLY in absolute desperate times, such as him about to attack my face )).

What else can I do to correct this?

I can not RISK him doing this to my mom or my son. Bad enough he does it to me but if he does it to one of them it won't be a good thing.

Suggestions please? We need to nip this in the bud IMMEDIATELY.
My usual methods are not working

(He only does this in the morning around 10 am before he has his lunch and chills out a bit, afterward he is his normal loving self.

 

[rad65]

Can you try adjusting his lunch time? I notice my cats get more playful and aggressive near meal times, this could be Kismet's way of telling you he wants his lunch earlier. Do you feed all wet food, or do you leave dry out? If he's that aggressive, maybe try leaving some dry out for free feeding if you don't already so he can eat and chill out without having to bite you first.

 

[gloriajh]

I know WHY he is doing it and I understand it but I need to know how to train him it is NOT ok

I guess I didn't understand what you said when you said you know "WHY" ...
Did you identify the reason as he wants to play rough?


Could the reason be that he's really hungry?

I'd try to see if feeding him more and more often will help. Full tummies seem to produce nap time.

I suggest this because of what I've observed with some of my cats -

-- I usually know when our KiKi is hungry - he begs and cries in a very persistent way - and - if I'm not paying enough attention to him he starts picking a fight with his sister - and that gets my attention.

When I do feed him, he eats like he hasn't had a meal for several days even though it's only been a few hours.

You probably know some humans that can get real nasty when they get hungry.

otherwise, I'll leave the other remedies to other members' ideas
g

 

[my4llma]

He does this 2 hours before he eats every day? Maybe he needs to eat earlier? Even if it's just a small amount at that time.

 

[justjayde]

Thanks for the replies!

Kis eats only dry food as wet food makes him really sick - and we do measured food - and I add a little to his dish every 2 hrs or so through out the day. If I did free feed he would be 400 pounds

he is a bit of a bottomless pit - and was starting to get chunky. If I put all his food out at once he will bolt it down all at once.

He is 11 pounds - and gets a half cup a day dry of blue wilderness (though he has been known to get a few extra nibblies now and then if he seems to run out of food earlier). He also gets 2 tablespoons of pumpkin and several treats throuhg out the day.

Am I underfeeding?

USUALLY when he bites me he is sitting on my knee bored - so I think it is more of a "PLAY WITH ME, WRESTLE WITH ME!" thing. Though I could be wrong.

 

[yayi]

I'm not an expert but my cats are between 6 to 10 lbs and they get an average of 1 cup of dry food a day. I must add that they go outside and are pretty active.
How active is Kismet?

 

[yayi]

Another form of discipline is blowing air at their faces and an unexpected loud noise.

 

[justjayde]

hahahah Kismet is as lazy as the day is long - truth be told. He always has been a lazy little loafie cat.

when he plays - he likes to play LAYING DOWN.

Yea a cup of food would turn him into a big ol sausage.

Maybe I will try adding a bit more food - but yea... gotta watch that weight.

The puff of air doesn't work - tried it.

Next I will try a hiss and see how that goes I guess...

I can't complain he is a perfect cat in every other way

hopefully we can change this one behavior.

 

[rad65]

Hissing has been by far the most effective way of getting my cats to stop inappropriate behavior. I hope it works well with Kismet. Here are some rarely-seen hiss vibes

 

[ducman69]

Could it not also be dominance aggression?

Instigating everything on HIS schedule and control and effecting it by aggressive play may be a possibility you might want to direct in a question to an expert on cats.

If that is the case, I would stop it with a tss/hiss and/or startling noise such as a clap, stand up to make yourself large and imposing, scruff, and then banish (if it can be done safely, and remember you definitely need to support the weight of a 11lb cat properly) to another room for timeout. This establishes you as dominant and in control and provides an inescapable negative response to unacceptable behavior.

Combined with lots of positive affection, love, and perhaps treats/rewards for good behavior, but on your schedule, would help to enforce the desired qualities so kitty doesn't just learn to avoid you. Works with doggies at least, but may on some level apply to cats the same.

Best of luck!

 

[yayi]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Could it not also be dominance aggression?

I think you have a point. Sometimes our cats have to be reminded who is boss. I once had a feral dominant mommy cat. She and I spent days deciding who was top cat. I ended up w/ the position since I controlled the food supply (and won her kittens to my side)

Unfortunately, instead of me taking care of her and her babies, animal control took them away.

 

[xlovey]

Negative Reinforcement and Punishment rarely if ever work with cats. They're not like dogs, they're not really like any other domesticated animal actually. They just don't respond well to that. If I were you, I would just walk away as soon as he starts doing it. If he persists, perhaps go into another room and close the door. Just wait a couple minutes then come back out and give him love and such, cats don't have very long attention spans. If he's doing it for attention, then ANY attention is good attention, even if the attention you're giving him is meant as a punishment.

If it's because he wants food, then you should just feed him. It might be a pain, but while you're at home you could try to give him less food more often, just so he feels like he's getting something.

As for the dominance thing, maybe you need to just accept that cats are the boss and give him what he wants

 

[ducman69]

Hmmm, I dunno about that. Negative reinforcement worked to keep Wesley from dashing out the door (by scaring him back in) and off places he shouldn't be (via scary SSSCAT spray) and possibly to not scratching me during foot cleanings in the sink (either that or they just got used to it or used to the fact that its over quicker without protest heh) and via 'tssts' to stay away from myself and guests while eating or preparing food since otherwise they are allowed up on the table/counters. Inadvertent negative reinforcement by getting caught in a plastic bag has him overly avoiding those now (knew to keep them out or to at least cut the handles, but just turned my back for one second to put the frozen stuff away first).

Not that "honey" isn't stronger or desirable whenever possible, but its not always appropriate for circumstances.

I do believe that cats have issues "connecting the dots" the way humans do, and so correction has to be obvious and immediate or not at all.

 

[justjayde]

Originally Posted by rad65

Hissing has been by far the most effective way of getting my cats to stop inappropriate behavior. I hope it works well with Kismet. Here are some rarely-seen hiss vibes

Yup I used to use the Hiss with other cats and it usually works... if reserved for rare instances of serious need.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Could it not also be dominance aggression?

Instigating everything on HIS schedule and control and effecting it by aggressive play may be a possibility you might want to direct in a question to an expert on cats.

If that is the case, I would stop it with a tss/hiss and/or startling noise such as a clap, stand up to make yourself large and imposing, scruff, and then banish (if it can be done safely, and remember you definitely need to support the weight of a 11lb cat properly) to another room for timeout. This establishes you as dominant and in control and provides an inescapable negative response to unacceptable behavior.

Combined with lots of positive affection, love, and perhaps treats/rewards for good behavior, but on your schedule, would help to enforce the desired qualities so kitty doesn't just learn to avoid you. Works with doggies at least, but may on some level apply to cats the same.

Best of luck!

It is not dominance aggression - he knows I am the boss. It only happens in the morning when he is full of energy and bored... But yes - that is pretty much what I am doing

I get him to stop the attack (so far no one way is successful - which is what I am working on ) and then he is removed to calm down or rewarded when he diverts his attention to something acceptable.

Originally Posted by xLovey

Negative Reinforcement and Punishment rarely if ever work with cats. They're not like dogs, they're not really like any other domesticated animal actually. They just don't respond well to that. If I were you, I would just walk away as soon as he starts doing it. If he persists, perhaps go into another room and close the door. Just wait a couple minutes then come back out and give him love and such, cats don't have very long attention spans. If he's doing it for attention, then ANY attention is good attention, even if the attention you're giving him is meant as a punishment.

If it's because he wants food, then you should just feed him. It might be a pain, but while you're at home you could try to give him less food more often, just so he feels like he's getting something.

As for the dominance thing, maybe you need to just accept that cats are the boss and give him what he wants

I already mentioned that he IS fed a lot of little meals (about every 2 hrs) rather than a few big ones. He always has a couple of kibbles in his dish. I really do not think it is a food issue.

I also usually don't use negative reinforcement but at times it works better than positive. Such as making him realize he can not bite people. He is not the boss and he won't ever be the boss... that is just not ok in my world. I am disabled and I have people in and out I can't have a cat thinking he is in charge and being mean etc. Not to mention again - I can't have him doing that to my son.

I can not just "walk away" I am disabled - so again I need to teach him it is not ok.

Thanks for the input - will continue forth with attempting to stop this beaviour.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Hmmm, I dunno about that. Negative reinforcement worked to keep Wesley from dashing out the door (by scaring him back in) and off places he shouldn't be (via scary SSSCAT spray) and possibly to not scratching me during foot cleanings in the sink (either that or they just got used to it or used to the fact that its over quicker without protest heh) and via 'tssts' to stay away from myself and guests while eating or preparing food since otherwise they are allowed up on the table/counters. Inadvertent negative reinforcement by getting caught in a plastic bag has him overly avoiding those now (knew to keep them out or to at least cut the handles, but just turned my back for one second to put the frozen stuff away first).

Not that "honey" isn't stronger or desirable whenever possible, but its not always appropriate for circumstances.

I do believe that cats have issues "connecting the dots" the way humans do, and so correction has to be obvious and immediate or not at all.

I 100% agree with you. I use positive reinforcement for 99% of things but at times - when it is something he absolutely MUST do or not do and positive doesn't work, then it is time to use other methods such as ssscat, etc.

I used the ssscat to teach him the counter was not safe because my counter is a stove top and he jumped up there when it was HOT a time or two. I was done "playing nice" because I didn't want him to get hurt. The ssscat fixed the problem instantly. We haven't had it on for months now and he still stays down.

I use the squirt bottle (I rarely have to use it and even when I do usually the sound it makes is enough to stop something he is doing) it works, its fast and it keeps him safe. (( I use it when he is in danger etc ))









Thanks all for the input. I am 99.99% sure this is simply "I am bored, PLAY WITH ME" agression.

Just need to teach him to ask me to play in anon biting way.

Will keep you posted on how we proceed/succeed.

 

[xlovey]

It's your cat, so you should do what you feel is best, I just don't support the use of negative reinforcement or punishment. They have repercussions and I believe that anything you can do with them, it is also possible to do with positive reinforcement. Though I understand that your disability could interfere with that.

 

[carolina]

Hi... I hope this issue gets resolved soon...
I am one that doesn't believe in negative reinforcement either - IMHO it can become a snowball and aggravate the situation to a point that there is nothing left to do besides increasing the negativity... IMHO It creates a cycle that feeds the problem... I do believe in certain things however - hissing, SSSCat, for example...
But I wanted to throw an idea out there... related to the food... I have seen another cat here that had a vicious/violent reaction apparently related to the food, and once it was changed, it got better. It was also highly caloric/high energy, grain free - I believe it was CORE.
You said your cat eats only dry and needs to eat a limited amount of calories, right? What if you change him to a lower calorie food, with a higher fiber content? This way you will be able to feed him more and he will feel fuller longer due to the fiber...
You might also try a slow feeder bowl, and measure free feeding. With a slow feeder, he will eat slowly throughout the day, yet you will be able to make food available to him by serving measured amounts of food in the morning and at dinner. Say the portion for the day is 2/3 a day - you can serve 1/3 cup in the morning and 1/3 cup at night.

Also, if this is a sudden change of behavior, a trip to the vet might be in order just for good measure... Sudden changes of behavior like this can be a sign of pain or illness...

Hope this helps some

 

[justjayde]

I thought I would update...

Due to it being a serious problem I did use a squirt bottle (yes negative reinforcement) - it only took ONCE and he stopped... (without the squirt he kept attacking harder every time I tried positive reinforcement... vs ONE squirt which got his attention and made him back off long enough to pick him UP and put him on the floor.)


He learned that is NOT an ok behavior.

The next time he tried I only had to say "No bite" in the same disappointed tone and put him on the floor and he stopped - rather than leap at my face to attack. This was a huge change/success.

He tried it ONE MORE TIME a day later and again I said "NO Bite in the same disappointed tone - set him on the floor and that's it!

Now when he is on my lap "bored" he DOES still open his mouth like he is going to bite and right away I say "No bite" and he stops! At which point I then pick up his "kick it" and play rough with him with that.

We also rough play with his kickit when he is on his tree

Problem solved!

I have told my mom and my son that they can NOT use bare hands to play with him and how to deal with it if he tries to bite them but I think we have over come that hurdle.

He really DID need the squirt to realize "ooooh she is serious". I have only ever sprayed him a hand full of times and always on the foot or bum. He has learned my disappointed voice and connects it to that little squirt. There have thus far been no negative issues from doing this and in times of great importance it is faster at getting the desired results (and since I only use it for the very serious things - and positive for everything else, it works for us.)

I will continue to use my negative reinforcement for big/serious things (stove, door and attacking are the 3 negatives) Everything else I will continue to use positive reinforcements.

BTW I will mention everyone that ever meets kismet (including vet/groomer/high stress situations) are floored at how well behaved/well trained he is - So I must be doing something right LOL!

He is a happy kitty and I am once again a happy mama secure in knowing he won't attack my sons face/hands while trying to instigate play.

It also was not food related it was 100% "I am bored, lets wrestle/play!" as I suspected.

 

[ducman69]

Awesome news! Grats to you two for working it out.

Originally Posted by Carolina

I am one that doesn't believe in negative reinforcement either - IMHO it can become a snowball and aggravate the situation to a point that there is nothing left to do besides increasing the negativity... IMHO It creates a cycle that feeds the problem...

What about spoiling to a point where it snowballs until there is nothing left to do besides increasing positivity by building a throne and hand feeding caviar, heh.

Everything in moderation.