I need to air out the situation, and would welcome any advice

[pepsiandmax]

I have a cat Pepsi. He turned 9 now in March. He is peeing, he is pooping solids, he has good appetite, he loves to play, he loves cuddles (when he wants them), and also love belly rubs.

So from all that everything is fine, he is fine.

But then also, I questione everything. I do have some trauma, I lost a cat (my soulcat Max) some years back, and I feel I missed signs that might have made me take him to the vet sooner, and I would still have him with me. So I have trauma, where I am now super watchfull, maybe a bit too much. Which is why I feel I might just be feeling anxious and overthinking.

Pepsi has always had a problem with hairballs, ever since he was a kitten. He does not seem bothered by them. Might show some small signs of discomfort a bit before he throws up, but then immidiatly after he is fine.

Last summer is really when this all started; he has TR, not sure if its called that in english; Tooth reabsorption, tooth disease. And june 2023 he needed to have 1 tooth pulled. After surgary we had a 1 week checkup, and he has ripped his stitches even with him only getting wet food, and this put us on a pure wet food diet for 2-3 months. He is not too fond of eating wet food, loves the sauce, but for actually eating he prefers his dry kibble. So it was a rough few months, he lost a fair bit of weight, but also I did notice no hairballs like he would usually have.

Before they pulled his tooth, they took some blood samples, and his kidney values have gone up. They are still within the normal range, but they have gone up, so the vet wanted me to move him over onto «Early Renal» food. We started with some wet food of this (and he was fine eating that this time), but when we went back to dry food once his gum was healed we first went back to Satiety that he was on as to not throw away food, and then moved him over to Early Renal dry kibble. When we made the change to Dry Early Renal, he suddenly started having way more hair balls than he has ever had before. This was late autumn/early winter. And then on this side of the year he started having some … breathing problems. Knowing he struggles with hairballs, it could also just be irritation, and after two such attacks a hairball did come up. It could remind of what I have seen cats having a asthma attack, or just wheezing trying to get an hair ball up.

Anyways, when a hairball did come up I figured that was it. And then he had a third attack. This is when I contacted the vet. I took him in, the vet was able to provoke such an attack, by lightly squeezing his throath. Given how he was otherwise very fine, eating, drinking, using the litterbox and all they thought it too drastic to put him out to go down with a camera. I did mentione his problems with a whole lot more hairballs than usual, and the vet concluded with possible just sore throath.

I was sent home with some painkillers/anti inflammatory meds to give for a week with food. Metacam if that is a name used in other countries. He was also placed back on a wet food only diet, Early Renal.

I might have changed it over too drastic, or … after some days he ended up with diarreah. But even with taking steps with probiotics, he kept having diarreah. It did seem like it was getting better then it didn’t. So I contacted the vet again, asked of its possible his whole system is angry right now, and if we could try and have him on some Gastrointestinal food, to calm everything down.

We did do that. He was on that for 2 weeks, no more problems with breathing, no diarreah, he seemed super fine. And this is where things went bad again. The plan was to get him over onto Early Renal again. Given his hair ball problems with Royal Canin, we tried Purina this time. So I started to add a little. Mixing up gastro and early renal dry kibble. In a small dosage, for about 1 week. And he starts to throw up. Also worth mentioning, he turned 9 and got a birthday present on the 12th, some new snacks that I also started giving in this same week.

I stopped the early renal on last friday, but he still threw up on saturday and monday. I did remember that he had gotten these new treats as I was talking with the vet on tuesday, whicj I had given him as well these days.

That was tuesday this week that I walked to the vet. I was told again; its very drastic to put a 9 year old cat out for camera down to his stomach, x-ray and all the stuff, when he is fine. He is eating, he is drinking. Pooping about once a day, sometimes twice like normal, he pees normally. He plays and has a good appetite. And I very much agree that it is too much to put him through such a procedure just because I feel anxious.

We both did say it is very possible he is reacting to the early renal food, and also possibly having some kind of food intolerance given the new treats.

There has been 1 throw up since tuesday, but that was a hairball, so my gut don’t feel that is the same «kind» of throw up as the others he had last week. I don’t know.

What I am also reacting to is that he has found a new favourite place to sleep. Not unusual for that to happen, but the olace he has choosen is triggering me. He is sleeping/relaxing, and not crouhing together and hiding. And that is under the sofa. Reason this upsets me is that the cat I lost, Max, was hiding under the sofa right before, so its triggering to see him under there when there has been all this stuff happening.

I am trying to remain calm, since he is very much fine. But its very hard when I just feel anxious. My other cat Max, he was also fine I thought, and then he wasn’t.

Besides lying under the sofa, I am also overthinking him licking his mouth. I know this is a sign of nausea. But I also know from having seen him do it before throwing up that its not just 1 time, its many rapid lickings. So I am trying to tell myself to remain calm when I see him getting up from sleeping, jumping down from the cat tree where is was lying, and then doing a lick. My brain is working overdrive, analysing his every behaviour, and its not good.

So I have trauma clouding my vision, and I just wanted to hear from people who might have some experience with food intolerance in cats.

Pepsi is a very picky eater, he is not very fond of the Gastriintestinal dry kibble he is getting right now. I have continued on giving some wet food, and he does not seem to react badly to it. Its with fish, and I read often its beef that is a problem with food intolerance.

My vet carries Royal Canin and Purina. And those two brands are the ones I have tried. The vet did mentione that there are other brands to try. I said I was worried about him needing to be on early renal, but him seemingly having bad reactions to both those brands.

Anyways, long post from a anixous cat mum. Pepsi is currenly lying, sleeping, inbetween my feet in the sofa, trying to tell me that he really is fine, and that I need to calm down.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. Am I to understand that - other than the hairballs - this all started when Pepsi was given early renal food? If that is correct, I would put hm back on the food he was eating before and see if that improves things. It could take more than just a few days of stopping all these new foods and the new treats before you see improvement - maybe more like 2-3 weeks. It sounds like he has gone through quite a number of food changes in a rather short period of time and that could have messed up his digestive tract. You want to get to a point where you can let his system settle down, and I would think the easiest way to do that is through his old food(s) that were not posing any problem.

Do you know what his creatinine, BUN, and phosphorus levels are based on his last blood work? I'd be curious to know, if you can share them. Those numbers are a good starting point in determining the degree of his kidney disease and whether or not it is crucial at this juncture to even start renal foods. If his numbers aren't bad, I think you have time to do more research on your options. There are other foods on the market for cats with kidney disease besides the prescription ones that the vet has had you try. Wet food could help with the hairballs because of the extra moisture which can help to pass hair, so finding a wet food that he likes and splitting his food between his dry and some wet might help with future hairballs. This is part of what you can look into as you wait to see if he settles down some. I can share with you a list of non-prescription kdiney care foods, if you are interested.

Overall, Pepsi sounds pretty OK and may just need time to get over all the stuff that has gone on with him recently. I don't think you need to be overly worried at this point.

 

[pepsiandmax]

Hi. Am I to understand that - other than the hairballs - this all started when Pepsi was given early renal food? If that is correct, I would put hm back on the food he was eating before and see if that improves things. It could take more than just a few days of stopping all these new foods and the new treats before you see improvement - maybe more like 2-3 weeks. It sounds like he has gone through quite a number of food changes in a rather short period of time and that could have messed up his digestive tract. You want to get to a point where you can let his system settle down, and I would think the easiest way to do that is through his old food(s) that were not posing any problem.

Do you know what his creatinine, BUN, and phosphorus levels are based on his last blood work? I'd be curious to know, if you can share them. Those numbers are a good starting point in determining the degree of his kidney disease and whether or not it is crucial at this juncture to even start renal foods. If his numbers aren't bad, I think you have time to do more research on your options. There are other foods on the market for cats with kidney disease besides the prescription ones that the vet has had you try. Wet food could help with the hairballs because of the extra moisture which can help to pass hair, so finding a wet food that he likes and splitting his food between his dry and some wet might help with future hairballs. This is part of what you can look into as you wait to see if he settles down some. I can share with you a list of non-prescription kdiney care foods, if you are interested.

Overall, Pepsi sounds pretty OK and may just need time to get over all the stuff that has gone on with him recently. I don't think you need to be overly worried at this point.

Thanks for replying

I do not know the values or what the numbers were representing. But some number was at a ~7 in 2021 or 2022 and was almost doubled when they checked in 2023. That is what had the vet concerned and wanted him to switch. But they also said, its still within the normal range. Its just the almost doubling og the numbers that had them concerned.

Pepsi has always had a problem with getting hair balls. He was on Satiety from RC for years, then made the switch last autumn to Early Renal from RC. This is when his hairball problem really shy rocketed, going from about once every two/three months to once a week. Both of these dry food.

Now with the breathing problems starting back in february, we tried wet food Early Renal from Purina, since he seemes to like this better than RC, when we tried both summer 2023 when his gum was healing.

In february he went on a wet food diet to try and stop all the hair balls and to let his esophagus heal from possibly being sore. But this food caused diarreah that did not seem to want to stop. So that is when we changed him over to Gastrointestinal, to let his system rest, and I was told that I could try to change him back over to Early Renal after a few weeks when he seemed to be back to normal, which is what I tried, and that is when he started puking.

I do agree its been a lot of changes happening. I plan to head back to the vet to have a talk about food and what now on monday when they open. Maybe he needs to stay on this Gastrointestinal for a longer time to let everything rest.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I do not know the values or what the numbers were representing. But some number was at a ~7 in 2021 or 2022 and was almost doubled when they checked in 2023. That is what had the vet concerned and wanted him to switch. But they also said, its still within the normal range. Its just the almost doubling og the numbers that had them concerned.

I don't know what that number represents as it relates to the kidneys, but something like SDMA which is nothing more than a predictor of possible kidney disease could double from 7 to 13 and not really mean too much. So, it does depend on what number doubled as to what it means.

Chronic kidney disease (CKD) is progressive and ultimately terminal, and there are varying steps/treatments along the way to help slow it down or at least make the cat feel better. Trust me, as time passes and things progress, you will want to know all you can about it, including Pepsi's blood work numbers. This link is the 'go to' for all feline CKD issues. Very comprehensive, but if you want to learn more about CKD this is the place.
Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - Everything You Need to Know to Help Your Cat (felinecrf.org)

 

[silent meowlook]

Hi. I am not a veterinarian and don’t have a license.
What concerns me is that he was put on Metacam which is known to cause kidney damage in some cats. It is not supposed to be used in cats with renal impairment. I know you said his numbers were within the “normal” range, but you did say they went up since last time.

If he was my cat, I would stop the Metacam,( you probably already have) and I would retest the bloodwork.

I would also consider having an abdominal ultrasound done by a boarded internal medicine specialist or a specialist who preforms and interprets ultrasound. This would show you not only what is going on in the kidneys, but also the GI tract.

Regarding the vomiting of hairballs. It is never normal for a cat to vomit hair. Unfortunately through misunderstanding of the GI tract in cats, people and some vets have come to believe it is. A normal functioning healthy GI tract in a cat can process hair just fine.

Dry cat food is very high in carbohydrates and is dehydrated, so no moisture. Cats cannot process carbohydrates as they are obligate carnivores. Any cat with suspected kidney issues needs to be on a canned wet diet to help get the most moisture into the cat as possible. If your cat is experiencing vomiting of hair, this can also be helped with the canned diet as it adds moisture to the GI tract.

If he was my cat, I would switch to a canned only renal diet, if he will eat it. If not, then another type of canned pate variety diet. You want to avoid the canned foods with gravy, as those are high in carbohydrates.

Regarding the coughing incedents. Usually feline asthma looks to people like the cat is trying to cough up a hairball. Since it is such a serious disease in cats if left untreated, I would do diagnostics to determine if it is asthma as well.

If he were my cat, I would have chest X-rays done to determine if it is asthma or not. If it is, I would treat with an aero cat inhaler of steroids
( Fluticazole ) and albuterol ( cat sized) for any attacks. I would not want him to have a steroid injection if at all possible.

With the trachea stimulation causing cough response at the vets. My own cat has that reaction to pressure of any degree on the throat. With her it is because of hyperthyroidism. The growth on her thyroid has become large enough to cause this.

If he was my cat, I would test for hyperthyroidism. This is a test often not included in the full cat panel.

Some things to remember, he is your cat and you know him better than anyone else. I know with anxiety and PTSD, it can sometimes feel to yourself like you are being neurotic, some vets can also make you feel this way. But, you know your cat. If you think there is a problem, there is. You know the sleeping under the couch isn’t normal. Any change in normal behavior should be investigated.

I speak from experience with the anxiety and PTSD. I don’t want it to sound like I am just offering advice about something I know nothing of. It is hard to live with especially during something like this. But try to trust your gut instincts. The first gut instincts, not the 47 that follow.

 

[FeebysOwner]

What concerns me is that he was put on Metacam which is known to cause kidney damage in some cats. It is not supposed to be used in cats with renal impairment. I know you said his numbers were within the “normal” range, but you did say they went up since last time. If he was my cat, I would stop the Metacam,( you probably already have) and I would retest the bloodwork.

pepsiandmax - While i agree with checking with your vet about some of the testing options suggested above, don't get upset about the meds. All meds are processed by the kidneys and/or liver. As a result, most come with notes about using them especially if a cat is known to have kidney or liver issues. However, there is no med out there that can avoid being processed by one or both of these two organs, and generally meds within the same grouping/accomplishing the same goal will also be processed by the same organ. Sometimes, there is no getting around it. If I were to not use meds that are processed by the kidneys with my CKD cat, she would not get meds that she needs. You have to weigh the risks against the benefits.

Sometimes, finding out what is going on with a cat is a one step at a time process rather than a do everything at once. That is where talking to your vet about the best next steps to start with is most beneficial. As also said above, you know your cat best so you can use that to your advantage when addressing issues with your vet.

 

[silent meowlook]

Information about the Boxed Warning on Meloxicam Labels

The new boxed warning on the METACAM® labels helps inform veterinarians of the serious risks associated with extra-label use of meloxicam in cats.

www.fda.gov

The following is a packaged insert for Meloxicam inj. I had to screen shot and highlighted relevant parts.

Meloxicam is not like other drugs for cats. While other medications may be processed through the liver or kidneys, Meloxicam can damage the kidneys in a different way.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Please don't let our enthusiasm upset you or scare you off. We all have the best of intentions and can sometimes get pretty intense even though we don't necessarily mean to be.

Most vets would not intentionally give your cat something that they truly thought would harm him, and especially not in the case of your vet who already believes there is likely a kidney related issue going on.

So, please don't become overwhelmed with information given here. Discuss options with your vet and see what comes of those conversations. I do believe that the more one learns makes a person a better advocate for their cat.

Please continue to keep us posted on what is going on with Pepsi and ask all the questions you want. We will try to keep our responses focused on each matter if/and when they come up.

 

[Alldara]

I would simply ask the vet if the last bloodwork included a hyperthyroid test and if not I would start there. It was one of the first signs with Lily, that I missed.

Otherwise your cat is doing very well for 9! My friend's cat has started having very early stages of kidney disease too and they looked over Tanya's site to make food decisions as well.

 

[pepsiandmax]

Hi. I am not a veterinarian and don’t have a license.
What concerns me is that he was put on Metacam which is known to cause kidney damage in some cats. It is not supposed to be used in cats with renal impairment. I know you said his numbers were within the “normal” range, but you did say they went up since last time.

If he was my cat, I would stop the Metacam,( you probably already have) and I would retest the bloodwork.

I would also consider having an abdominal ultrasound done by a boarded internal medicine specialist or a specialist who preforms and interprets ultrasound. This would show you not only what is going on in the kidneys, but also the GI tract.

Regarding the vomiting of hairballs. It is never normal for a cat to vomit hair. Unfortunately through misunderstanding of the GI tract in cats, people and some vets have come to believe it is. A normal functioning healthy GI tract in a cat can process hair just fine.

Dry cat food is very high in carbohydrates and is dehydrated, so no moisture. Cats cannot process carbohydrates as they are obligate carnivores. Any cat with suspected kidney issues needs to be on a canned wet diet to help get the most moisture into the cat as possible. If your cat is experiencing vomiting of hair, this can also be helped with the canned diet as it adds moisture to the GI tract.

If he was my cat, I would switch to a canned only renal diet, if he will eat it. If not, then another type of canned pate variety diet. You want to avoid the canned foods with gravy, as those are high in carbohydrates.

Regarding the coughing incedents. Usually feline asthma looks to people like the cat is trying to cough up a hairball. Since it is such a serious disease in cats if left untreated, I would do diagnostics to determine if it is asthma as well.

If he were my cat, I would have chest X-rays done to determine if it is asthma or not. If it is, I would treat with an aero cat inhaler of steroids
( Fluticazole ) and albuterol ( cat sized) for any attacks. I would not want him to have a steroid injection if at all possible.

With the trachea stimulation causing cough response at the vets. My own cat has that reaction to pressure of any degree on the throat. With her it is because of hyperthyroidism. The growth on her thyroid has become large enough to cause this.

If he was my cat, I would test for hyperthyroidism. This is a test often not included in the full cat panel.

Some things to remember, he is your cat and you know him better than anyone else. I know with anxiety and PTSD, it can sometimes feel to yourself like you are being neurotic, some vets can also make you feel this way. But, you know your cat. If you think there is a problem, there is. You know the sleeping under the couch isn’t normal. Any change in normal behavior should be investigated.

I speak from experience with the anxiety and PTSD. I don’t want it to sound like I am just offering advice about something I know nothing of. It is hard to live with especially during something like this. But try to trust your gut instincts. The first gut instincts, not the 47 that follow.

Thanks for the reply.

For the food. Oh boy. See if I were to switch him onto a wet food only diet, with no gravy. He would go on a hunger strike. He lost 0,7kg last year when he went on a wet food diet, and that was with gravy. He is very picky. If I open a packet of wet food, he will only eat it fresh, and if its gel, or mouse or anything beside bits in gravy, he will sniff it and walk away. I know they say that cats will eat when hungry, but I also do know him, and he would resist, and I could potentially have other problems on my hands with anorexia.

As for hairballs; he has been like this since he was a kitten. Getting them regularly, but not as often as what started happening last year when put on Early Renal RC diet. He likes to eat hair. If he finds fluff on the floor, he will eat it. Its not just the hair he ingests while cleaning, but he is getting extra in there as well. The wet food diet did help with hair balls, I already saw that, but then there is the weight loss, and refusal to eat to also consider. I know its bad for a cat to go without food for long periods of time as well. That can also cause GI problems, and also kidney problems I think.

I will speak to the vet. I think the way forward will be to try and find a balanced way. Also especially find a food that he can stick to, and the Early Renal foods we have tried have not agreed with him. And question is how quick do we try another one. As was mentione in the first reply, its been a lot of changes already, if we are not going to try even more different kinds moving forward

 

[silent meowlook]

Hi.
You absolutely never want Henry to go without eating, ever. Being overweight puts him at risk for hepatic lipidosis if he stops eating or even drastically reduces the amount he eats. So, do what you can to cut out the dry. Once he isn’t getting the carbohydrates, he will lose weight without having to be hungry.

As for how to transition to a different food, that all depends on the cat. I have always just changed diets. But it sounds like you are worried about vomiting if you change to quick. Personally, I don’t think feeding dry renal diet is worth it. But that’s me. I feel very strongly against dry food for cats. I think that any canned cat food, even the worst, is better than the “best” dry.

But, like I said before, he is your cat and you know him best. You are right that he should never go without eating and unlike with dogs, you cannot wait out a cat until they eat. The get very sick if you try.

 

[pepsiandmax]

I just ugly cried on the phone with the vet.

Pepsi is still fine. Start there, he is still his normal self, but yeah, those small few things is really nagging at me, and I just can’r relax. Its easter, so they are not fully staffed this week, only open mon-wed, and then closed until tuesday after easter.

We got an appointment for tomorrow. A small check, and hope to be able to draw some blood to check his kidney values. The Vet explained to me when I called that there are 2 numbers that they look at for kidney issues, and its only one of them that has gone up, but still at a normal level. So they do not consider this a kidney issue as of yet, hence why they recomend the Early Renal diet, as a precaution.

But it would be good to check the levels again, and see if they have gone up.

I use google, which I should not, cause it is telling me its his kidneys. All of this. I noticed last night that his breath seems to maybe be a bit more smelly than normal.

Bad breath, licking mouth, possible nausea = kidney issues.

He is still eating, using the litterbox, playing and all that, so he is not considered an emergancy, and we wait until tomorrow.

That is the update for now. Cat mum, still anxious about the small little details that seem off.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Typically creatinine and BUN are the numbers most vets look at related to kidneys. However, there are a number of factors that can elevate BUN, so often it isn't a real indicator if creatinine is not also elevated. Just wait and see what the new blood work numbers are.

As far as "Bad breath, licking mouth, possible nausea", those things can mean many. many other things that just kidney issues. Besides, my cat has CKD and her breath isn't bad, so you can see how misleading your google search was.

 

[pepsiandmax]

Typically creatinine and BUN are the numbers most vets look at related to kidneys. However, there are a number of factors that can elevate BUN, so often it isn't a real indicator if creatinine is not also elevated. Just wait and see what the new blood work numbers are.

As far as "Bad breath, licking mouth, possible nausea", those things can mean many. many other things that just kidney issues. Besides, my cat has CKD and her breath isn't bad, so you can see how misleading your google search was.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I know. I figure just like googling all kinds of things human you can get told you have either diabetes or cancer. It will be the same for cats.

Google is all I have, and as much as I know I should just not, I still search around to try and educate myself to prepare.

I just can’t shake the feeling that something is not quite right. Given how «fine» he is with everything, I am staying relativly calm, but I am still anxious. Really the sleeping under the sofa really just triggers me. I can see him litterally chilling under there. Absolutly totally relaxed. Its not entirely uncommon for him to switch up and find new favourite places to sleep, so it might be nothing.

Maybe its «just» some kind of small irritation in his stomach due to all the food changes. Or possibly development of a food intolerance. Something less scary. I think both those can fit the situation as well as kidney issues. Or maybe this is from his TR, maybe another tooth is bad and needs to be pulled.

 

[FeebysOwner]

The TR could very well be the cause of any unusual behavior. They can be painful.

 

[IndyJones]

I just ugly cried on the phone with the vet.

Pepsi is still fine. Start there, he is still his normal self, but yeah, those small few things is really nagging at me, and I just can’r relax. Its easter, so they are not fully staffed this week, only open mon-wed, and then closed until tuesday after easter.

We got an appointment for tomorrow. A small check, and hope to be able to draw some blood to check his kidney values. The Vet explained to me when I called that there are 2 numbers that they look at for kidney issues, and its only one of them that has gone up, but still at a normal level. So they do not consider this a kidney issue as of yet, hence why they recomend the Early Renal diet, as a precaution.

But it would be good to check the levels again, and see if they have gone up.

I use google, which I should not, cause it is telling me its his kidneys. All of this. I noticed last night that his breath seems to maybe be a bit more smelly than normal.

Bad breath, licking mouth, possible nausea = kidney issues.

He is still eating, using the litterbox, playing and all that, so he is not considered an emergancy, and we wait until tomorrow.

That is the update for now. Cat mum, still anxious about the small little details that seem off.

Google is unreliable for medical conditions.

In all seriousness though, I do have an example.

I noticed an amonia smell coming from Indy a while ago and google said "advanced kidney failure" turns out Indy's litterbox just needed cleaning.

 

[Alldara]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I know. I figure just like googling all kinds of things human you can get told you have either diabetes or cancer. It will be the same for cats.

Google is all I have, and as much as I know I should just not, I still search around to try and educate myself to prepare.

I just can’t shake the feeling that something is not quite right. Given how «fine» he is with everything, I am staying relativly calm, but I am still anxious. Really the sleeping under the sofa really just triggers me. I can see him litterally chilling under there. Absolutly totally relaxed. Its not entirely uncommon for him to switch up and find new favourite places to sleep, so it might be nothing.

Maybe its «just» some kind of small irritation in his stomach due to all the food changes. Or possibly development of a food intolerance. Something less scary. I think both those can fit the situation as well as kidney issues. Or maybe this is from his TR, maybe another tooth is bad and needs to be pulled.

Ditch google. It's a personalized search algorithm (meaning results based on your previous search history and personal algorithm rather than true results).
When you want to look up some cat things, head over to the VCA website. They have tons of "handouts" and update them as new research becomes available.

For example when I look up Bad Breath Cat on VCA website you get this: Halitosis in Cats | VCA Animal Hospital | VCA Animal Hospitals

 

[Alldara]

Off topic, but why Google doesn't work well unless you're looking for localized results (like you want to find x restaurant in your city): Google Personalized Results Could Be Bad for Search
Note: article is from 2009 when they began this.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I agree, it depends on what you are searching for - as in localized vs. general information. For the latter, Google sucks. I bypass them and use Yahoo and get better results. I can look up the same thing and get tons more thru Yahoo. Bing isn't so great either.

 

[Alldara]

I agree, it depends on what you are searching for - as in localized vs. general information. For the latter, Google sucks. I bypass them and use Yahoo and get better results. I can look up the same thing and get tons more thru Yahoo. Bing isn't so great either.

I like Duckduckgo but the Brave browser has their own which works good too. I use Google if I need a local business contact information.