How far would you go for a nearly 12-year-old with kidney stones/failure?

[jwathas]

Does anyone have any opinions on the food?   http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/diamond-indoor-cat-food-18-lb

We are thinking about changing all of our cats to it.  I really like the ingredients list.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

As to Bailey fighting on the fluids, is that normal when he's feeling good?  If not, then I'm just wondering if today you might have just not gotten a good stick or something?  Sometimes our old guy

Sven

would fight a little, but then again, if it was a bad stick, WE could tell too, because the fluids just would flow well. 

As to the new food, it's still pretty high in carbs (I ran it against my carb checker), but I don't know of a dry food that isn't

)  I caution against changing food right now though, simply because Bailey is just now starting to eat again, and a new food might set him back.  Also, dry food is not really all that good for cats with either stones OR kidney disease, and Bailey has both.  Particularly with stones, at least for bladder stones, lots of moisture is the best preventative.  And for kidney cats, dry food is...well...drying.  You're already adding fluids to him under his skin, it's even better for him to FEED him moist food, even with extra water added to that.  However, once again, the best food to feed him is something he will eat.  It's a catch 22 for sure. 

Another note on that food you're looking at, I'm by no means an expert on kibble, but am wondering about some of the things, like oranges?  I always heard cats don't like citrus, so am curious about that one ingredient.

Here's an article on food, if it helps:  http://www.thecatsite.com/a/choosing-the-right-dry-cat-food

BTW,  SO glad Bailey is feeling better

 

[2bcat]

I find it amazing that a cat takes syringe feeding without fighting, but then I remember watching a video of one who also did that.  It sure makes it easier.  The syringe feeding was probably the hardest thing I ever did, and I ended up insanely frustrated and sad when trying to do it.  I think part of it probably was that getting the food in her actually correlated with her not feeling that great!  It just started out bad and never got better with syringing.

Anyway, yes, quite possible you just got a bad run today on the fluid if he's never done that before.  Here's hoping.  

And yes really best if he will eat wet food on his own.  Maybe he won't, if he's eaten dry all his life.  If not, better dry on his own than nothing, for sure, he needs to eat something.  But it would really be best if you can get him to eat some canned food.

 

[jwathas]

All of our cats have eating both wet and dry food their entire lives, so Bailey is used to both.  He doesn't fight the syringe feeding much at all.  He did at first, but he's gotten used to it.  I take him into the bathroom (less space for him to run away) and sit on the floor with him and just stick the syringe in the side of his mouth and he takes it with no problems.  My husband is going to look for a different kind of wet food on his way home from work tonight that might be easier to blend and get into the syringe.

 

[2bcat]

Well with any luck you'll be at a point where you won't have to syringe.  He seems to be getting a little better, understanding that he wants to eat, etc.  As one who has experienced a cat doing that and yet still not really feeling better in the end, I don't want to give you any false hope, but it's always a better sign if he eats on his own and gives you other behaviors that seem like he is feeling better, which is what you described above.  And even then, if he needs a bit of syringe for a while to get enough food, at least he seems to tolerate that well.

I'm trying to remember if we ever tried blending a cat food and syringing it.  I think we may have once or twice and perhaps also gave up on it, so maybe I'm wrong in suggesting it.  I know eventually I had ordered a case of 12 cans of Iams Max Cal because it wasn't available locally and I was just trying everything.  I figured higher calorie density per syringe was good.  Didn't use too many of those either, I think the Hills a/d was just easier to deal with despite having fewer calories.  I ended up buying plenty of baby food at various points too and I had bought taurine powder to put in it and we were giving potassium supplement and various stuff.  I don't think we ever syringed the baby food though.  I mixed cat food into it at times as attempt to have her eat a bit.

Makes me exhausted and emotionally drained just thinking about it again, hang in there.

 

[jwathas]

The whole process is definitely draining and exhausting, but Bailey is totally worth it.  He has given us almost 12 years of unconditional love, so this is the least we can do for him.  It sure is a good thing that I work from home and I am here all day to be able do it!  We looked everywhere for the Iams Max Cal, PetCo, PetSmart, Target, Walmart, and none of those places had it, so we may have to order it online.  My husband is going to stop by the grocery store on his way home tonight to see if he can find anything that would be easier to blend and work in the syringe without either getting stuck because of chunks or getting too thin and just running out and/or splattering everywhere (that just happened with the Royal Canin).  Bailey actually seems to kind of like the baby food, so maybe that's why he takes it so well.  

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Even Fancy Feast Classics or Sheba PATE's are fairly high in calories and with a little water added should go into a syringe. (just put a little in a bowl and mix in water with a spoon)   I think the SHEBA is smoother, and know it's more caloric.  The Hills A/D is sold at Petsmarts that have a Veterinarians inside (can't think of the name right now), BUT, they do require a prescription from your Vet.  It really IS the best for syringe feeding, IMHO. 

 

[jwathas]

GOOD NEWS!!!!  My husband just brought home some Friskies pate wet food (turkey and giblets dinner) since I thought the pate kind would be easier to blend and syringe feed, but I didn't even have to!  I put it in a dish and Bailey ate a VERY decent amount of it on his own, very enthusiastically at that!  He ate not quite half the can, but pretty close to it and that is actually the normal amount of wet food that he would eat each day when he's not sick, so we are ecstatic right now!  I guess we will stick with the Friskies wet food for now!  Bailey has always been a pretty finicky eater, so to find something that he likes is a huge bonus!  Right now, I'm debating on whether or not to give him one more jar of baby food today.  He has had 2 jars already and now this Friskies wet food and just a couple of very small bites of dry food right before that.  I don't want to make him too full by giving him more baby food and making him not want to eat regular cat food, but at the same time he does still need to put some weight back on!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Oooooh, that IS good news

 

[jwathas]

He ate some more this morning!  Also, when I got up, he was sitting at the bowl of dry food (not eating) and he came running up to me when he saw me coming and I picked up the container of dry food to fill the bowl and he went running to the bowl, but decided that he didn't want any dry food, so I got out his Friskies wet food that was leftover from last night and he ate some of that and then I syringe fed him a whole jar of baby food.  He's acting A LOT more like himself today!!!  He also had a dose of mirtazapine earlier in the morning.  

 

[di and bob]

When my 14 year old started looking thin, I started him on kitten food, it definitely fattened him up. Just watch the protein, some is higher then others and you don't want a lot of protein with kidney disease. Make sure you clear any thing with a call to the vet. All the luck!

 

[jwathas]

 
When my 14 year old started looking thin, I started him on kitten food, it definitely fattened him up. Just watch the protein, some is higher then others and you don't want a lot of protein with kidney disease. Make sure you clear any thing with a call to the vet. All the luck!

Thanks for the tip!  We'll pick up some wet kitten food for him this weekend!  As of right now, he really seems to like the Friskies turkey and giblets wet food and I'm still supplementing with baby food 2-3 times a day, giving him an entire jar at a time.  I can definitely tell that he's starting to put a little weight back on.  Bailey has always been a very slender cat, never overweight, unlike our other cats!  He is definitely getting better and better each day.

 

[marc999]

How far would you go?

-As far as you're financially willing.  That's your call.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

 

 
When my 14 year old started looking thin, I started him on kitten food, it definitely fattened him up. Just watch the protein, some is higher then others and you don't want a lot of protein with kidney disease. Make sure you clear any thing with a call to the vet. All the luck!

Thanks for the tip!  We'll pick up some wet kitten food for him this weekend!  As of right now, he really seems to like the Friskies turkey and giblets wet food and I'm still supplementing with baby food 2-3 times a day, giving him an entire jar at a time.  I can definitely tell that he's starting to put a little weight back on.  Bailey has always been a very slender cat, never overweight, unlike our other cats!  He is definitely getting better and better each day.

How about the sub-qs,  Is he still fighting you on that, or was that just a fluke?  I wonder if the stone passed?  Did the Vet say they will be able to tell by palpitating his kidneys?  Also, is it possible that the stone stuck in the ureter (I'm still assuming that's what happened, but don't think you ever confirmed) CAUSED the kidney issue and once it passes the kidney values might return to normal? 

 

[tjcarst]

Look for a food low in phosphorous.  Not low protein, as once thought.  It is now the reverse, a high protein food, that is believed to be better.

Please go back to page 1 of these posts and read LDG's post:

On the renal diets: Article by a vet, published March 13 of this year http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/Why-Feline-Kidney-Insufficiency-is-still-Tricky-to-Treat/

From the article:

Diet

A changing view of the best diet is a key development in the treatment of chronic kidney insufficiency, Nortsworthy said.

In the past, the approach was a low-protein diet. Now the practice is to put such a cat on a high-protein diet, he said.

There are several reasons for this switch in thinking, particularly to keep the cat from losing too much weight and muscle. Muscle wasting is a common problem in senior cats, Norsworthy noted. Their spines and hips become very prominent because they have lost muscle mass. This occurs due to protein deprivation.

“The low-protein diet really hasn’t done the good that we thought it was doing,” Norsworthy said, adding that its benefits to kidney function “are minimal to nil” and that many older cats on a low-protein diet will begin to lose muscle and get thin.

Despite this change in thinking, many manufacturers continue to make low-protein diets that are officially labeled for the kidney disease, he said.

“I don’t even use those official kidney diets anymore,” Norsworthy said. Instead he recommends foods made for diabetes patients because they are low in carbohydrates, which is in excess amounts in many cat foods, and the food makers have replaced the carbs with mostly proteins.

Norsworthy noted that creatinine is artificially lowered when a cat loses a lot of weight, and muscle mass is needed to make creatinine.

“In a very thin cat, the creatinine will not be a true reflection of the kidney function,” he said.

That means the creatinine measurement is not reliable in a thin cat, and on the other hand the BUN measurement is falsely elevated in a cat that’s dehydrated. “Therefore, you have to consider body condition and hydration status when interpreting creatinine and BUN values,” he said.

High protein diets will elevate the BUN measurement, but that doesn’t mean the kidney function is down, he said. “It just means the cat’s on a high-protein diet.”

A picky appetite is one of the most common concerns Quimby hears about patients with chronic kidney disease

“Appetite should be actively addressed, as poor body condition is linked to a poor prognosis,” she said.

Treating complications of the disease, like hypertension, dehydration and anemia, will help maintain appetite, Quimby said, but feeding tubes, appetite stimulants and anti-nausea medications should be considered to manage nutrition.

And a (referenced) article on the myth of the low protein diet for renal failure. In the end, it is about management of phosphorus, not protein, and it is possible to provide a high protein diet that a cat needs with low phosphorus. http://www.optimumchoices.com/Downl...tion_for_Dogs_with_Reduced_Renal_Function.pdf

 

[BonitaBaby]

I just read your thread and am so glad that you decided not to listen to that vet! I recently had some unwanted experience with emergency vets and sometimes you just need to find another vet. The meds they prescribe are not necessarily the best for your cat either. By that, I mean, the first emergency vets prescribed horrible liquid meds, including an appetite stimulant. After knowing it wasn't working, they didn't try to prescribe a different one. Long story short, a vet specialist prescribed pills instead, including mirtazipine and that worked! The first emergency vets had NO bedside manner either and one was plain rude. Unfortunately, in emergency situations, I've learned that sometimes it's best to just go to another place where they will really care for your cat.

EDIT: Oh, and my Bonita baby is HORRIBLE about fluids! I didn't get most of the first 3 liquid meds into her mouth because of her struggling and scratching, but I learned to get better. I also figured out to grab a towel and get her into a locked room so she couldn't race around to escape. I wrapped her up tight like a burrito in order to squirt the liquids. Some still dribbled down because she was trying not to swallow. Same with trying to get water into her mouth and liquid milk supplement for senior cats. She would squirm up so much trying to escape that I constantly had to rewrap the "burrito" and figured out to really get it snug around her neck. Not tight but snugger. Still she'd escape, but "burrito" cat babies are needed for cats who fight their meds. =(