How do you cats react to "punishment"?

[rogerniris]

By "punishment" I mean non-harmful measures like water spraying, air puffing, etc.

Our male cat deliberately does things that will result in punishment to get our attention (I assure you he gets A LOT OF attention but he's just greedy ). He probably figured out that we can't ignore him when he's scratching on the back of our leather office chairs when we're sitting in them and keeps this habit, no matter how we direct him to other scratching posts (we have several in our home, one right next to the chair), covering the chair back and giving him negative reinforcement (and positive ones when he's scratching on the right one). We tried puffing air in his face, gently but firmly pushing him away, talking to him with angry face and tone, and picking him up to get him out of the room. He knows exactly we don't like it but he does it anyway. If we look at him, he will stop or slow down while staring at us, but resume to it the second we turn our eyes away. If we "punish" him, to avoid being kicked out of the room, he will lie very close to the ground so that we can't pick him up, lowering his head like a puppy begging for pardon, or walk to some place where he could roll all over on the floor to soften our heart (and it's hard to pick him up with this position too!). We always ended up giving up throwing him out and giving him one more chance.. And he successfully lured us to interact with him, though not in a "desired" manner. Of course he will soon come back to the chair and do scratching - begging for pardon - getting one more chance all over again.

I can't say it's not annoying but it's also cute. He's manipulative but we think it says he's smart and can understand our behaviors. Compared to the other cat of ours, who will only run away or bite back when getting air puffed/water sprayed/picked up to put her to another room, we definitely enjoy his "manipulation" much more. Anyway, I posted this because he's hatefully adorable (adorably hateful?) and I'd like to know more about your cats' reaction to "punishment". Will they stop the undesired behaviors? Do they continue to do bad things despite of the negative feedbacks? Do they trick you into giving them attention, even though they are "attention with negative feelings"? Also, a suggestion or two on how we can save our chairs would be nice. 

P.S. I'm aware that there is debate on whether we should "punish" cats and what measures we can take. In our case we make sure we never hurt them, and it won't affect our relationship. But I understand that if there is possibility of giving positive feedback, distracting or ignoring them, we'd better not to resort to punishment. So suggestions on the former category would be great. 

 

[samuel medina]

Maybe a shock collar, so you can zap him when he does stuff, but do it so he doesn't se it's coming from you.

 

[Norachan]

 
Maybe a shock collar, so you can zap him when he does stuff, but do it so he doesn't se it's coming from you.

No, I really wouldn't recommend that! My sister works at a shelter helping to re-train problem dogs. Some of the worst problems; biting, attacking other dogs when they get too close, urinating on themselves etc, are seen in dogs that have had shock collars put on them at some point. I think shock collars should be banned.

@RogernIris  I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "Our male cat deliberately does things that will result in punishment to get our attention" Wouldn't it be easier to keep a wand toy or a soft toy you can throw for him when he starts scratching the back of the chairs?

The only form of punishments my cats get (and it's really only one of them that ever needs it) is time-out in their cage. Toby is a large, muscular boy and he sometimes plays too rough, particularly with a couple of the smaller, more timid females. If he starts harassing them he gets put into his cage to calm down.

 

[rogerniris]

That's interesting. I'm not worried about he thinks bad things comes from me. I would never really hurt him and he is very very attached to me despite that I'm always the one who come out to carry out the "punishment". But may be a way to not give him attention while sending him the message. Does a shock collar hurt him more than a gentle tap on his head? The name sounds terrifying. And I worry that he will “paralyze” once put on a collar, as he does to the harness we put him in (to walk him out)

 

[rogerniris]

I didn't know about the shock collar.. As I said the name sounds terrifying..

We have a lot of toys for him and plays with him all the time! Sometimes he just comes right after we had a play session with him (with his favorite wand toys)... I didn't try throwing a toy for him to chase. I'll try it next time. Thanks

 

[di and bob]

Cats do not respond to physical punishment like dogs, they do not have a 'pack' mentality and do not associate punishment with what they are doing that displeases you. They just become wary and afraid. They do not live to fit in or to please their family members, you have to make them associate what they are doing with being unpleasant. A shock collar would most likely give them a heart attack or cause them to never come out from hiding. I've seen a person hold a collar to their throat and it knocked them down.  Being held down by the scruff of the neck by their mother so they can't bite and play is unpleasant, they learn not to do that.  When their litter mates stop playing with them because they are too rough, they miss it, it is unpleasant so they change. They can associate things, it has to mean something to the cat to make them change. So you have to make scratching the leather chairs unpleasant for them. The best way I have found is double sided tape, put several strips crisscrossed across the leather where he scratches. They hate the feel of the stickiness. Leave it on until he learns not to scratch there, then it can be removed. If you don't want to do that, there are several cat deterrent sprays available, make sure they are good for leather. The only problem with these is that we smell them too. A sharp, loud NO, or any way to startle him will work, even shaking a can of pennies, but that only works while you are there, he'll scratch when you are gone. i would definitely try the tape, it works for me! I just thought of one other. We tried those corrugated cardboard 'scratchers' you buy it Walmart, etc., they absolutely LOVE them. Sprinkle a little of the catnip on them that comes with them and they completely forget about the chairs, they love them that much!

 

[talkingpeanut]

That's interesting. I'm not worried about he thinks bad things comes from me. I would never really hurt him and he is very very attached to me despite that I'm always the one who come out to carry out the "punishment". But may be a way to not give him attention while sending him the message. Does a shock collar hurt him more than a gentle tap on his head? The name sounds terrifying. And I worry that he will “paralyze” once put on a collar, as he does to the harness we put him in (to walk him out)

Yes, it is certainly more painful, and potentially dangerous. In any case, I agree that punishment is not helping as cats don't respond. Distracting him with a toy or laser would be much more effective.

 

[plan]

The closest I come to "punishing" my cat is occasionally throwing a pillow when I'm trying to sleep and he's meowing at 100 decibels into my ear because he decides it's time for me to wake up.

That said, I've found a LOT more success with "act of God" behavior modifiers than with anything else. The Sssscat with motion sensor cured him of his "lounging on the dinner table" habit, and in general I try to ignore undesirable behaviors until he stops, and/or make things physically inaccessible to him if he tries to destroy/hide/break those items. Even if it's something you can't move, like a set of wires, you can bind them together, wrap them in wire covers, and rub citrus on them, that sort of thing. Or place a physical obstruction so he can't get to them to bite them, etc.

I don't think things like spray bottles or yelling work with cats, at all, and that seems to be the general consensus. Of course, I don't want my Buddy to be afraid of me either, so that's another compelling reason to find alternative ways to correct destructive behavior, if it happens.

And finally, he might just be bored. Maybe a little more play time can help?

 

[basschick]

we have never punished HK.  when things get really difficult, i use the "voice of authority", as i seem to have a tone that kids and pets respond to. we never yell or throw things, and while years ago we tried light spraying on warm days, it didn't seem to change his behavior so we stopped.  instead we just let HK have his own way.  if he wakes me up mowwing, which he started doing more as he's aged (he's 18), i pet him a little and go back to sleep.

 

[neely]

I don't think things like spray bottles or yelling work with cats, at all, and that seems to be the general consensus. Of course, I don't want my Buddy to be afraid of me either, so that's another compelling reason to find alternative ways to correct destructive behavior, if it happens.I

I completely agree with the above quote as well as Di and Bob about using double sided tape.  

Here is a helpful link to explain why these methods don't work: http://www.catbehaviorassociates.com/the-squirt-bottle-controversy/

It's hard to tell but from the looks of the adorable kitty in your avatar he appears to be quite young.  If this is the case i can understand why he is exhibiting playful behaviors which seem to annoy you. We had a cat, Neely, in my avatar who was the smartest most mischievous cat I've ever known.  We had to brainstorm ways to deter some of her precociousness, all with positive reinforcement.  The double sided tape helped immensely with one of our sofas.  In fact, we left it on for our present cat just in case.

  Best of luck and please keep us updated on your progress.

 

[Norachan]

 
I didn't know about the shock collar.. As I said the name sounds terrifying..

We have a lot of toys for him and plays with him all the time! Sometimes he just comes right after we had a play session with him (with his favorite wand toys)... I didn't try throwing a toy for him to chase. I'll try it next time. Thanks

It sounds like he's not done playing.

He's probably just getting into the game and when you stop he's like,

"Hey, what happened to my game? C'mon human. Wave that toy again!"

Have a look at some of Jackson Galaxy's YouTube videos for playing with cats. He talks about the "Boil and simmer" approach, where you get the cat to put all his energy into playing with the toy, then let him simmer down a little, then play until he is panting again. It can take 20 minutes or more to get a healthy young cat really worn out, but after that he's going to want to eat and groom and sleep so you'll get an hour or so of peace.

 

[rogerniris]

Thanks for the advice

I think by "punishment" I mean similar things to your "unpleasant things" (I hope air puff, gentle push, angry face/voice and leaving him outside the room do not count physical punishment..). We tried double-sided tape but he'd just avoid the tape areas and could always succeed in finding little spots where there is no tape (and our other cat actually love the tape and can't resist biting it off...). We have a scratching post and a cardboard scratcher right besides the chair, but he'll just ignore them. I don't think he scratches because he has the urge (he never does it when we're not sitting in it). he just knows we hate him scratching the chairs and will always give him attention while he's doing it (we always ended up giving up "punishing" him but pet him/played with him instead, which are pleasant to him), so he makes use of it to get our attention. It's kind of "negative reinforcement" in which he does bad things to strengthen some of our behaviors. I think he does not care about most of the unpleasant things we gave him except for kicking him out the room, in which case he will not get the attention he wants. So he does all the tricks (lying close to the ground or in the corners, rolling all over on the floor) to avoid that. He's like a small child who's smart enough to play "trick-or-treat" with us 

. (Oh I think he just got a new trick that rubbing us repeatedly will give static electricity shock which will force us to give him what he wants - he did not rub too much before but now he's doing much more rubbing especially when we're not in the chair but on bed/sofa!) One of our problems is we're not consistent in our response to his behaviors. As I said, we always ended up giving him one more chance, or come to play with him or pet him 

. We do play A LOT with him but he's just too active. I actually asked a question on this in this forum before (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/331055/should-i-get-a-playmate-for-my-super-playful-cat#post_4158430). He's so manipulative and exploitative

! Nevertheless we LOVE him SOOOOO MUCH. I don't mean to complain about him. Just want to have a more effective method to communicate with him in some of the matters.

 

[kittens mom]

You don't punish cats. You redirect. If he isn't using the scratching posts try moving them or using different surfaces. It is always self defeating to assign human emotions and intentions on a pet. Yes my cats are my babies but I never forget they are cats with cat needs.  Find a book on catification  and see what you can do to make his environment more engaging.

Facepalm

 

[rogerniris]

He only scratches the chairs when we're sitting in it and we don't want to deter him from us, so we don't use motion sensors/deterrent or can't make it physically inaccessible to him. Even when we lock him out of the room when he scratches the chair we only do it for about 5 minutes and then let him in. He will be good for another 10-30 minutes and decides whether to resume it again.. 

As I mentioned in the post above, he does get easily bored despite that we play with him A LOT, and we're worried that playing with him while he scratches will reinforce this behavior. And he's doing negative reinforcement to us in which he does bad things to make us to do certain thing. He's like a naughty and smart kid and we love him but want to have more effective ways to persuade him from doing certain things. 

 

[rogerniris]

He responds to "voice of authority" too, by lying close to the ground/in the corner/rolling on the floor and refusing to be picked up (so he can't be put out of the room) . He might be thinking "Oh your 'authoritative voice' will never hurt me and see you were just falling in my trap and paying attention to me! I won!" 

  

 

[kittens mom]

 
He only scratches the chairs when we're sitting in it and we don't want to deter him from us, so we don't use motion sensors/deterrent or can't make it physically inaccessible to him. Even when we lock him out of the room when he scratches the chair we only do it for about 5 minutes and then let him in. He will be good for another 10-30 minutes and decides whether to resume it again.. 

As I mentioned in the post above, he does get easily bored despite that we play with him A LOT, and we're worried that playing with him while he scratches will reinforce this behavior. And he's doing negative reinforcement to us in which he does bad things to make us to do certain thing. He's like a naughty and smart kid and we love him but wants to have more effective ways to persuade him from doing certain things. 

Keep his claws trimmed. If he's fairly active you probably won't have to do the backs. I have several battery operated toys that can distract them. We also rotate toys. Redirection is frustrating but worth the time investment. You wouldn't smack a small baby for being annoying treat what your cat is doing in the same manner. Fetch is a game almost all cats can learn.

 

[rogerniris]

Thanks for the good words about my cat! He's so adorable that I can't contain my love for him 

Could you tell me some of your brainstorm ideas about positive reinforcement? Double-sided tape does not work for him because he'll always find the spots between the tapes. We even tried covering the back up with towels and he just turned to the side of the chair where there is a tiny exposed spot..

 

[kittens mom]

 
He responds to "voice of authority" too, by lying close to the ground/in the corner/rolling on the floor and refusing to be picked up (so he can't be put out of the room) . He might be thinking "Oh your 'authoritative voice' will never hurt me and see you were just falling in my trap and paying attention to me! I won! 

  

We call that the mercury /quick silver move here. Yes the literally can bond with the floor and be impossible to pick up and if you do it's like holding mercury. Wand toys can be used to distract and add play time. If you get good at it you can do other things while they hunt the thing on a string. How old is your cat ?

 

[rogerniris]

Sometimes he wants to play sometimes he just wants our attention. Talk to him, pet him, etc. I assume that's because he gives us full attention, following us around all the time, checking out everything we do, etc. and think we should do the same thing to him 

We do play with him A LOT. We have many many play sessions with him every day and many automatic/traditional toys. He is young and super active and I actually asked a question on this in this forum before (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/331055/should-i-get-a-playmate-for-my-super-playful-cat#post_4158430). The video is great. I'll try his method to see if that will calm him down a bit. Thanks!

 

[kittens mom]

 
Sometimes he wants to play sometimes he just wants our attention. Talk to him, pet him, etc. I assume that's because he gives us full attention, following us around all the time, checking out everything we do, etc. and think we should do the same thing to him 

We do play with him A LOT. We have many many play sessions with him every day and many automatic/traditional toys. He is young and super active and I actually asked a question on this in this forum before (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/331055/should-i-get-a-playmate-for-my-super-playful-cat#post_4158430). The video is great. I'll try his method to see if that will calm him down a bit. Thanks!

I'm going to give you a bit of wisdom I realized . I'll be 60 this year and when we took in two baby kits I was like I will never be able to give them the attention and love they need. We have two other cats. Instead I realized that this time in their life is brief and should be cherished and we do every single day. We watch their antics and never turn one away even if it's only a quick hug or kiss or belly rub. We take great delight in taking pictures and video and in all the wonderful things they learn every day. And they are just as nutty and active and annoying as your kitten is right now. We just put on a different set of eyes and decided to enjoy the ride. Before you know it that ball of energy will be a pile on a window sill and you'll debate turning him over to avoid sunburn on one side and bed sores on the other. Right now you are forming the bond you will have for life.