Getting in the weeds with raw recipe nutrition

[orangeblossom]

Hi! I haven't posted here for awhile. I'm returning because I needs some thoughts from everyone. I'm so sorry that I'm long-winded!

Background: I have two kitties ~4 years old, who both were started on raw food right after adoption as kittens. They have thrived on it; they have gorgeous coats and musculature. I fed RadCat exclusively for most of that time, but when they started high pressure pasteurizing their poultry, nothing I could do would get them to eat it. We started feeding Darwin's Pet raw, which initially I was pleased with, but as we've been buying it over the last year I've had growing concerns with ingredients and quality. This includes but isn't limited to the product varying extensively in color, texture, and smell between batches, and website ingredients listing "thigh meat," but the package only reading "meat." They have also changed the recipes in what I feel represents a cheapening of the product. The cats, too, noticed, refusing to eat food from one batch, but fine with another. You can see where this would disturb me - what are they smelling that I can't?

I have started making my own cat food. I use a grinder because that is what they are used to - for now, maybe we can advance to chunks. I should note that I am a dietitian with a degree in nutritional science so reading recipes that say to remove x percent of bone drives me a little crazy.

I'm looking at recipes from Dr. Pierson and Feline-Nutrition.org and approximating the percentages of bone/meat/organs therein and I am not coming out at the much-cited 80-10-10. I ended up deboning my turkey, weighing it all separately, then calculating the amount of everything I'd need to hit those ratios. I ended up with liver at roughly 5%, bone roughly 10%, and then the rest hearts plus other muscle meat.

So I guess my question is this, how do you all ensure that you are achieving a somewhat precise nutritional profile? Is there a good reference for this ideal profile besides recipes? I've noticed that RadCat, for example, doesn't include added vitamins/salt except manganese. Darwin's Pet has a slew of vitamins and minerals and includes hearts as an "organ." I also read that mice are 4% bone, so why are we trying to hit 10%? Dr. Pierson (I believe) has stated that she removes 50% of the bone now - I haven't done the math to estimate on what percentage that lands. Is the ratio only applicable as a percent of total food weight (so including water, egg, etc)?

It's funny because I am not that precise with human diets (with the exception of high-performing athletes) so my obsession with "getting it right" here is a little bonkers. The cats have also been unimpressed with my food so far, so all of this drama may be a moot point.

At the end of the day I'm still trying to clone RadCat because man oh man, they were addicted to it until the HPP started.

 

[missmimz]

At the end of the day I'm still trying to clone RadCat because man oh man, they were addicted to it until the HPP started.

They don't HPP the venison, beef, or lamb, only the poultry. Not sure about the new pork. 

 

[orangeblossom]

Unfortunately mine will not eat the venison, lamb, or beef. My boy did eat lamb for awhile, but he started puking it consistently so I removed it from the rotation. I didn't realize they had added pork, though! It is very pricey, though, and really you could buy organic meat from a farmer (fit for human consumption) and still come out more economically. I'm just not sure what makes it so addictive. I thought about buying dulse as I've read it has a savory, salty flavor and I suspect that may be a key factor.

 

[mschauer]

So I guess my question is this, how do you all ensure that you are achieving a somewhat precise nutritional profile? Is there a good reference for this ideal profile besides recipes? I've noticed that RadCat, for example, doesn't include added vitamins/salt except manganese. Darwin's Pet has a slew of vitamins and minerals and includes hearts as an "organ." I also read that mice are 4% bone, so why are we trying to hit 10%? Dr. Pierson (I believe) has stated that she removes 50% of the bone now - I haven't done the math to estimate on what percentage that lands. Is the ratio only applicable as a percent of total food weight (so including water, egg, etc)?
 

The AAFCO has a publishes a document that contains profiles for the minimum nutrient needs of cats and dogs. Pet food manufacturers use those profiles to formulate their foods.

Most commercial raw pet food manufacturers meet AAFCO nutrient recommendations.  They should state whether they do or not on their labels. Rad Cat does say they meet AAFCO requirements. Their short ingredient list is probably due to them using free range meat sources. True free range animals eat a natural diet and their tissue has a much better nutrient profile than that of conventionally raised animals. Rad Cat is also very expensive partly due to that.

I've seen other manufacturers claim to be "nutritionally complete" (without mentioning the AAFCO) but the ingredients of their products make me suspicious of that claim.

Many sources of raw pet food recipes don't believe in the need to follow the kind of guidelines provided by the AAFCO. That is where the 80-10-10 comes in. They believe that if you just follow that rule the food will be nutritionally complete.

Dr. Pierson falls into another category. She, and others like her, don't believe in the need to follow AAFCO guidelines but also believe the 80-10-10 rule isn't sufficient. They may vaguely use the 80-10-10 rule but add supplements to fill in what they believe is needed.

As to mice being 4% bone, I've seen a wide range of claims about the composition of a cat's "natural diet". 

 It's funny because I am not that precise with human diets (with the exception of high-performing athletes) so my obsession with "getting it right" here is a little bonkers. The cats have also been unimpressed with my food so far, so all of this drama may be a moot point.

It isn't bonkers at all.  Feeding a nutritionally deficient diet to a cat over a long period of time and do serious harm. Humans eat a far more varied diet than most pets. That is particularly true of home-made diets for cats. Most people don't have access to a wide variety of meats and organs. Some don't have access to organs at all. A lack of variety in a diet is the perfect formula for nutrient deficiency. 

 

[sophie1]

Interesting, OrangeBlossom.  I'd never calculated the bone percentage in Dr. Pierson's recipe, but I just did now.  Assuming chicken thighs are 15% bone, the recipe (ignoring eggs & water) comes out to 10% bone on the nose.

Calculations here so you can check my work:

3 lbs chicken thighs = 48 oz, * 15% yields 7.2 oz bone.

Removing 30% of bones results in a total of 45.8 oz chicken thighs that includes 5 oz bone.

Add 4 oz liver to get a total of 49.8 oz meat/bone/organ. 

Random internet searches yield a large range of numbers for chicken thigh bone composition, but mschauer has reported the 15% figure from USDA sources and her own testing.  What bone percentage did you calculate from the thighs you separated and measured, and what specific chicken brand/type did you buy?  I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a good deal of variability depending on how the chickens are raised (i.e. Mr. Purdue vs small local farm with free range hens).

FWIW, I buy preground meat/bone/organ grinds from Hare Today and consider the quoted bone percentages to be an average rather than a guarantee for every package.  My cats have had no constipation issues as long as I target bone in the 10-12% range (to allow for feeding bits of plain meat and freeze dried treats here and there), and I also rotate proteins with each jar of food.