Food Journey

[ravencorbie]

I've decided I want to have a thread where I post my experiences with different foods. Eventually, I want to end up feeding a homemade raw diet, probably frankenprey or whole prey (frozen). That's why I put it in the Raw forum, even though I'm not there yet.I sort of started that with my venting about my mom, but I realized I need a more general thread than just that, since it's currently not an issue, but I do want to talk about what I'm doing and getting advice.Currently, I'm feeding all wet food, 4-5 times a day. Since my cat is still a kitten (almost 9 months old), I feed her whenever she is hungry. When I start teaching (this coming Monday), that will switch to 3 times a day because I'll be gone during her current "lunch" time. I picked foods from Dr. Pierson's site, as well as Nutro Natural Choice, and only chose those that were 10% or less in carbohydrates. I also avoided fish flavors for the most part, but do have one fish option. I haven't (yet) looked at or avoided/added food based on specific ingredients.The first step, the one I'm on currently, is just to find out which of these low-carb foods my cat likes. I've been compiling a list of each food she's tried and then noted whether she ate it or not. Due to wanting to provide variety, I give her a different brand each time I open a new can. I'm hoping this will keep her from becoming too attached to a specific brand.Once I've listed all the foods she likes, I'm going to find out what ingredients are in them. I will be looking for bad ingredients (like carrageenan) as well as good ingredients (like antioxidants). I also want to include some of the commercial raw diets into the rotation at some point. Thankfully, there's a good pet supply store that has a variety of commercial raw options. They also have store cats that roam around and are adoptable, so I'm pretty impressed.The good news today is that I'm planning to switch vets. My former vet was a good vet, and my parents go to her. But my new vet is so much better. She has 6 hospital cats that live there and routinely assists our cat-only shelter. She is very good with cats, and overall, I was very impressed with her practice. When I asked her about feline nutrition, she told me I should go to catinfo.org, which I'm actually fairly familiar with. She's not at all opposed to raw diets, but does insist that they be balanced, so I think she'll be a big help when I start transitioning from canned and commercial raw to homemade. I feel so lucky to have found such a good vet. She also does acupuncture, but I'm not sure if I will want/need that.I'll keep you posted as things change and as I need advice. Right now, I feel pretty good about where I am and where I'm going.

 

[vball91]

I think your plan is good, but I would introduce raw sooner rather than later. The older a cat gets, the more resistant to food changes he/she gets is what I understand. Especially if you're introducing commercial already balanced raw, there's no reason to put it into the rotation. Also, if you're planning on going all raw at some point, I am not sure how compiling canned food ingredient likes and dislikes will matter in the long run since they won't be in the raw food.

 

[ravencorbie]

Thanks for the response. You're absolutely right about compiling likes/dislikes and ingredients. That's pretty pointless if I'm going all raw. I should mention here that I have a lack of common sense at times! I plan to get to the cat food store that has the raw food soon. They have a lot of different varieties. I just need to figure out which ones are balanced. I'm going to check out the thread on commercial raw before I go. One thing I do know is that I want to be able to give her chunks, and not just raw ground, because of her teeth.

I made myself steak tonight and tried giving Iris a bite of the raw meat before I seasoned it, but she wasn't interested. That said, I think she'll probably be more interested in chicken anyway. Most of the canned food she likes is either chicken or turkey, and she hasn't liked the venison or beef that I've tried.

Edit: I also gave her a sardine (with just water, nothing else) today, and she loved it.

 

[ravencorbie]

So, we have one store in town that sells raw food, and they have 3 brands:  Primal, Nature's Variety, and Stella & Chewy's.  Unfortunately, the Nature's Variety and Stella & Chewy's they have is only for dogs -- they don't carry any of the cat foods.  So, that leaves Primal.  They also only sell two kinds of Primal cat food, but can order the other varieties if necessary.  They have the chicken & salmon and the turkey.  The chicken & salmon is ~$15, and the turkey is ~$17.

That said, they gave me a sample package for free, and it has four varieties:  the first two, then beef & salmon, and pheasant.  They also have a "frequent buyer" club for the Primal raw food -- after you buy so many bags you get one free.

I have two worries about this, and they're connected:<br>

1.  I want to have variety, but I've heard fish isn't good, due to various mineral issues, as well as addiction possibilities -- so, do I go with two varieties and just deal with the fish, since it won't be everyday?  After all, I'm giving her sardines anyway.  Or should I avoid the fish and not worry as much about variety?  Or should I special order the pheasant to go with the turkey?<br>

2.  I don't know if I can do variety (i.e. two different types) anyway because I didn't realize how big the bags are.  I don't think I'll be able to reasonably fit one of them into my freezer, let alone two

Any ideas would be very much appreciated!
 

(And on a side note:  what is it about spaces between paragraphs?  Sometimes, it works with two "returns," but other times, I have to put line break codes in.)

 

[brandislee]

Honestly, I don't see why you're messing with ground if you're planning on eventually doing frankenprey.  As the above poster said, the earlier you introduce it to her the easier the transitions will be.  Have you tried just giving her a piece of chicken?  I jumped right in with frankenprey, and with a little planning it's not that hard, and it's cheaper than ground balanced.  BUT my kittens were 10 weeks old when I started, so it was easy for them and they took right to it.

Also, if you're rotating between commercial food and raw, I've read that you have to fast them in between because the enzymes that they use to digest each is different, and you can cause digestive issues if you feed raw and canned too close together.  BUT I'm still new, and I don't know how much merit there is to that... maybe someone else can chime in and confirm/deny?

 

[ldg]

I'm not aware of any issues feeding raw and canned together. In fact, it's a common transition tool. It is internet lore not to feed raw and kibble together. The idea is that kibble is usually rather high carb, which takes longer to digest and may be contaminated with salmonella, so it may cause gadtric upset if fed with raw, which typically digests quickly. But plenty of people feed some kibble with raw, at least during transition, and don't have issues. So who knows. :dk:

What I do know is that kibble and canned fed cats have to go through a transition in the switch to raw, because their entire systems become more acidic when digesting raw, and digesting bones can be a problem until that transition to a more acidic GI system happens. This is a normal state for a cat (the more acidic GI system). I transitioned my cats when most of them were almost 10, and looking back, I can see it took 3 to 6 months for their bodies to fully make the adjustment. So the younger and sooner, the better.

But quite a few people feed only a partial raw diet, and their kitties do fine, and see the benefit of raw, even though it's not 100%.

 

[ldg]

I'm not aware of any issues feeding raw and canned together. In fact, it's a common transition tool. It is internet lore not to feed raw and kibble together. The idea is that kibble is usually rather high carb, which takes longer to digest and may be contaminated with salmonella, so it may cause gadtric upset if fed with raw, which typically digests quickly. But plenty of people feed some kibble with raw, at least during transition, and don't have issues. So who knows. :dk:

What I do know is that kibble and canned fed cats have to go through a transition in the switch to raw, because their entire systems become more acidic when digesting raw, and digesting bones can be a problem until that transition to a more acidic GI system happens. This is a normal state for a cat (the more acidic GI system). I transitioned my cats when most of them were almost 10, and looking back, I can see it took 3 to 6 months for their bodies to fully make the adjustment. So the younger and sooner, the better.

But quite a few people feed only a partial raw diet, and their kitties do fine, and see the benefit of raw, even though it's not 100%.

 

[ravencorbie]

Brandislee --
I appreciate your concern. The fact is, I'm a full time teacher at a charter school, and we just started our teacher training week this week. Kids are coming next Monday. I have two weeks of lessons to write for five different classes, and if I want to be able to make photocopies on Friday, I need to get them done BY Friday. There's a LOT of research I still need to do before I'll feel completely comfortable with Frankenprey. I do plan on giving her pieces of raw chicken/etc. as a snack, but as for making the full transition, I need to do more research because I want to make sure it's completely balanced according to vets/nutritionists (Dr. Pierson, Dr. Becker, Dr. Hovfe are some that I've found, but I haven't fully explored CatCentric, which I think is where I'm going to find more on Frankenprey). Unfortunately, right now, I don't have the time to do that research. In Dr. Becker's video, she said the worst diet is an unbalanced homemade diet, so until I have more information on how to balance the Frankenprey and/or what to do about the bones in whole prey, I'm going to have to put that on hold for awhile. In the meantime, I'd rather have her start eating SOME raw, and the commercial is what I can afford (time-wise) right now. I wish I was still a full-time cat mom, but unfortunately, that doesn't pay the bills and I live alone.

As for the canned vs. raw -- I just followed the advice of the lady at the pet store (so, somehow didn't do the research on transitions that I've done on actual feeding guidelines). However, Laurie might be right. I know something's up, though: I gave Iris her first bit of raw in her canned food tonight, and she's thrown most of it up. I think I remember reading somewhere that that's normal, as part of some kind of "detox," but at the same time, she still had mostly canned, so I'm not sure. I know I fed her the first half of this can this morning, and she did not throw up, so it does seem to be the raw that precipitated it. Maybe she's allergic to something in it? This is the beef/salmon one, and I've heard some cats are allergic to beef. Plus, she never eats any of the beef-flavored canned foods, either. As for why I started with that one . . . *sigh* I actually had her pick. I figured it didn't matter since, well, I'm going to have her try all four anyway.

I should also note that I am a perfectionist. I know that you can switch to Frankenprey by just gradually adding things in, but I want to have a plan first, so that I know before I start the full transition that I know where I'm going and that I'm comfortable with it.

 

[ldg]

Aw, I'm sorry she threw up!

It's actually not unusual for cats not to tolerate red meats well - or at least at first. It really is best to start with easy-to-digest poultry. :nod: I have a cat that can eat beef, lamb, or venison now if it's only 50% of a raw meal, but it took ..... 6? 8? months... a year? to get there. He would have one bite of beef and throw everything up at first.

This isn't detox. People throw that term around. Here's how I think of it - imagine all you've been eating is highly processed foods. Microwave dinners, canned food, etc. And you've NEVER eaten a fresh vegetable or a fresh piece of fruit - ever. Then, instead of starting with something like an apple, you start with raw brussel sprouts or broccoli - or chili peppers or something. But no matter what you start with, it's a BIG change for your body. You haven't produced the digestive enzymes needed to process that raw food before. So you throw up.

This is the same for cats that have never eaten raw food before. Younger kittens usually do really well with transitions, as they're digestive systems are more flexible, and their tastes for various foods are still developing.

My cats were all older when I transitioned to raw. I introduced one protein at a time, slowly. When they were all eating it and keeping it down, I'd introduce a new one - but I'd be sure to include the original protein in some meals. My cats got bored eating the same thing, so I'd introduce it up to 50% raw/wet, and then introduce a new protein - a very small amount at a time, and slowly build up the amount of raw vs wet over a few days.

My cats don't have IBD, but there was a lot of vomiting during the introduction until I slowed things down.

 

[ravencorbie]

That makes a lot of sense. It's sort of like beans and cabbage: when you eat them rarely, you have lots of gas, but if you start eating them regularly, that diminishes. Or so I've heard.

As for the transition and different proteins: I think I understand, but I'm a little confused. This is what I *think* you're saying:

Step 1: Add a little of protein1 raw to wet. Over time, increase to 50% raw/50% wet, but just with protein1.

Step 2: Add a little of protein2 raw to the protein1/wet mix.

Step 3: Gradually replace protein1 with protein2 until 50% raw protein2/50% wet

Step 4: Repeat with other proteins, and then start increasing from 50% raw (any type protein) to more and more raw over several days.

But maybe you mean:

Step 1: Add a little of protein1 raw to wet. Over time, increase the amount of raw vs. wet.

Step 2: Add a little of protein2 raw to a mixture of 50% raw protein1/50% wet, protein1

Step 3: Gradually replace the wet food with protein2 raw = 50% protein1/50%protein2

Step 4: Add a little of protein3 raw to a mixture of either protein2 raw/wet same protein or protein1...

I also think you're saying I should just give up on the beef/salmon for now, and start over with poultry because it's easier to digest.

 

[ldg]

Well, I don't know that you should give up on the beef/salmon. You can try again, perhaps with an even smaller amount. But if she throws it up again, I would definitely leave red meats until later in the transition. :nod:

As to which method for transitioning, it depends on your goal and her likes/preferences. For me, the goal was 100% raw. Ideally, I would have introduced one protein to the point that a meal was 100% that raw food with no canned food any longer, then used that raw protein as the base for introducing the next raw protein. That's how Carolina managed the transition with her kitties (two of which have IBD).

I didn't have that option, because my cats got bored of eating the same protein for the length of time it took to a) get it to 100% of a meal, and b) keep eating it while introducing a new protein.

:lol3:

My only real point was that it helps to go slowly, to stick with introducing just one protein at a time - until she's comfortable with it or bored of it - and then when introducing the next protein, make sure you include meals of the original protein at some points, so her body "remembers" it.

I don't mean to make this sound difficult. Just go at her pace - it's not a race! And don't let throwing something up mean that raw isn't agreeing with her. It can be just that protein, or that it's too much too fast. Each kitty is different. :rub:

 

[ravencorbie]

Oh, sorry -- I meant, I should give up on the beef/salmon that was already defrosted (since it will be bad in a couple of days) as the FIRST protein.  I still have some in the freezer that I could introduce later.  Also, now I do understand what you're saying -- you only reintroduced wet because of the boredom issue.  Does that mean that when you were using the canned, it was any flavor?

As for this:  "And don't let throwing something up mean that raw isn't agreeing with her."  No worries!  I was pretty sure it wasn't just that it was raw OR that it was just part of the adjustment to raw (i.e. it wasn't something wrong with it being raw in general) that would eventually go away.  It's funny in that I made a similar comment when someone suggested adding in dairy (my cat has also thrown up with dairy).  Right now, I'm pretty sure it's some kind of reaction to either beef or red meat in general, since she just threw up again after eating this morning, and I didn't give her any raw then, but I did give her Wellness Core Beef-Lamb-Venison.  So, no more of that!

 

[ldg]

Well, if she threw up something else with red meats, even though not raw, I'd toss the dethawed raw beef/salmon and not try to feed it to her before it goes bad.

 

[ravencorbie]

Yep, that's what I did.  And I threw away the Wellness, too.  Then, I fed her a chicken based canned food with some of the chicken/salmon raw.  I put a little on the side, too, after having read the other thread about that.  She ate all of it and did NOT throw up!  What a relief!  I'm staying away from red meat for a long time, now.
 

 

[ravencorbie]

I made a mistake in my last post:  I've been trying out the TURKEY raw, not the chicken/salmon.  It's been going well.  Today, when I got home from school, I gave her all raw, and she ate it all.  Unfortunately, I don't have any more turkey defrosted (I wasn't expecting her to eat it so fast), so she's going to have to have canned tonight.  Tomorrow, I'm going to get a bag of the turkey.

 

[ldg]

 

[ravencorbie]

Thanks!

And she must really like it because she licked the dish completely clean.  As in, it looked like it just came out of the dishwasher.  So, I think we can definitely say that the throwing up was a red meat issue.  I think I'll introduce the chicken/salmon next, and then the pheasant after that.  I still don't know how I'm going to do variety when the store only carries the two types (turkey and chicken/salmon).  I guess I'll have to order some online, but I don't want to get a lot in case she has difficulties (either not liking it or getting sick).  I'd like to try rabbit, but I'm not sure if that counts as red meat, so maybe if the pheasant works, I'll get pheasant.  Still trying to figure out where it will all go in my tiny freezer . . .

 

[maple syrup]

We transitioned our kitten to raw the second day we took him home (15 weeks). He actually threw up the chicken that we fed  him a couple of times, and preferred the beef! His favorite is quail.  They can eat the whole thing bones and all, and I add a chicken heart or liver. The easiest thing to do for a thaw is put it in a baggie in a container of tepid water.  change it out a few times, and voila.  I also buy small hens and chop it in half while frozen.  the 1/2 will stay pretty frozen in the bottom of my fridge and lasts for 2.5 days of meals.  I usually beat up some of the bones so he can more easily chew them. 

 

[ravencorbie]

Isn't it interesting how different cats are!  That's funny that he threw up the chicken but ate the beef.  I'm really looking forward to when I can do some of the stuff I'm still hesitant about, like chicken wings and Frankenprey in general.  I really like the idea of using chicken wings to help with oral health, but I still am worried about whole bones.  Once I have time to thoroughly examine all the threads in the Resources thread (which is amazing!), I think I'll feel better about it.  And I'm guessing my cat will like it more, too.
 

 

[maple syrup]

I think the last thing you need to be worried about is the bones.  If they can eat them they will, and if they can't because they are too big, they will pick them clean. Quail is your safest bet for a first try because their bones are so tiny and frail. When we first tried quail he would eat the rib bones but would pick clean the leg bones.  Now he just scarfs the whole thing down.  I usually chop it into 4 pieces - 2 legs and half the breast/rib cage.  He eats 1/2 a quail in a sitting. 

When he was losing his baby teeth he was less able to chew the bones and really just picked everything clean.  That is when I started using a mallet or the back of my cleaver to soften the bones, and supplementing with eggshells.  Now that all his adult teeth are in, he is happy as a clam...