Ebony And Kidney Issues

[Freedom]

Ebony was always a petite girl, never reached 7 pounds. Recently she has lost weight; a LOT of weight. Had her in to the vet yesterday, we weighed her and did blood work. She has lost almost 2 pounds in about 1 year, bit less than a year. She also needs a dental, scheduled that as we checked out yesterday; earliest is in 3 weeks. She has major mouth issues (again!) including stomatitis.

I wasn't home when he called today with the lab results, he said her kidney values are all elevated.

Now he wants to test for bartedella; she never had fleas. AND he wants to test her for FIV, because my boy Bobby is FIV+. Bobby is a charmer, he does not fight, never has. He came to me at about 4 months of age and he is now 12. My cats are indoor only. When he came to me I had 10 cats; he made 11. Now, all these years later, I have 5 cats total. He does not fight. Period.

To me this is all stuff to run up bills, not to help Ebony with kidney issues. He did not mention anything re what to do re her kidneys.

I go in to the vet tomorrow with 2 of the dogs. What should I expect re Ebony, what can I ask, etc? Thanks.

 

[Kflowers]

It sounds as though you do not trust your vet. That isn't good. is there another vet in your area? If so go to your vet and get the records for Ebony. Ask them to copy the records and hand them to you. If you have them sent the odds are they will only send her vaccination records. That's not what you want. You want her entire file copied every page of it.

If you like the new vet do the same for the rest of your animals.

They may charge you a copying fee, it shouldn't be more than $5.

 

[Freedom]

I like the vet. I do not trust ANYONE (my issue). A huge veterinary conglomerate is relocating and building a brand spanking new place directly across the street from my vet. I know for a fact it has him and his wife very worried. So I think I am 'assuming' he is trying to make as much money as he can before them move in and he ends up out of business. Thanks for showing me that my trust issue is showing (again).

 

[Freedom]

I had a wonderful vet when I lived in RI. I relocated almost 4 years ago, tried 4 vets and settled for this one. I know no one can live up to the vet I had in RI, lol.

 

[Freedom]

Saw the vet today. Ebony's blood will be tested for bartdella. I convinced him testing for FIV was not needed.

Will have Ebony in next week for them to try for a urine sample. I'll drop her off in the morning and with luck, they will get one.

Also got pain meds for her for the next 3 weeks, until her dental appt.

Oh, and the voice mail message was not exactly what he said today. Today he said the kidney values are ok. The dental seems to be the big issue, leading to her not eating and thus losing weight. Interesting how things changed in 24 hours, from voicemail to talking w/ me directly.

 

[FeebysOwner]

That is weird about the kidney values. Why don't you ask if you can have a copy of the tests, just so you can see for yourself? And, if there has been more than one testing for kidney values, get copies of them all. Perhaps, the vet was looking at the wrong results?

It's OK that the vet is going to test for bartdella, but why not go ahead and test for FIV too? I know it is rare, and likely not the issue, but have you asked your vet why they think they should be testing for it?

 

[Freedom]

Bobby is FIV+, he is a charmer. I really doubt he has shared the FIV with Ebony or anyone else.

I do have the lab report here; and will post that in a moment. I am currently disgusted with this whole issue.

I was in to the vet yesterday w/ the dogs; but first we discussed Ebony again. At that time, I did ok the test for the bartonella. He agreed that testing for FIV was not needed. And he said that the kidney test results which are high can be from dehydration; and the issue she has in her mouth would make it painful for her to eat or drink. So getting her dental work done is a priority. As mentioned above I already had that scheduled, soonest THEY could get her in is in 3 weeks. So yesterday I also came home with pain meds for her.

Reviewing my paperwork last night, I noticed I was charged for the dogs, but nowhere did I see the charge for Ebony's bartonella test. I phoned in this morning. There was nothing on the check out (well, I KNOW that, that is why I am calling!), but she would check with the doctor and call me back. Three hours later I learn my approval yesterday was not listed on Ebony's chart at all; it did appear in the notes for one of the dogs.

THEN she says she has to have answers to lots of questions: any children in the home; does the pet visit at a nursing home; anyone in the home over age 60; anyone in the home with a transplant; anyone in the home with HIV. At that point I stopped and asked what was this all about, I thought this was a routine lab test. Oh she says, he approved that too, that one is $81, this one is $165. Hold on, what is this one and that one, what are you talking about? She says the doc recommended the FIV that is $81, and the bartonella is $165. No, we agreed yesterday NOT to do the FIV. Now she has to go talk to the doctor again.

I told her to forget it. Forget I even called this morning. Do NOT do any of the tests. Apparently there is more to this bartonella than I have been told, and I think that all should have been discussed in person when I was there yesterday, as we discussed Ebony's issues for 20 minutes before we moved on to the dogs. Just forget the whole thing.

So Ebony is on pain meds. I will take her in one day next week for them to get a urine sample. And I will take her in in 3 weeks for her dental work, the stomatitis and so on. I am giving her the pain meds (bupe) twice a day. Got 3 doses in and now every time she sees me she runs to hide, so I'm not sure how many more doses of that she will get.

I really do not understand why Ebony has had mouth issues the entire 12 years she has lived with me but this is the first time any vet has ever mentioned bartonella as a problem. Ebony has never had fleas. She is indoor only. There is something very odd going on, and I will not have her be a part of it.

 

[Freedom]

Here is the lab report

 

[Freedom]

I have no idea why the pages are showing multiple times. But that is typical for how my day has been.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Unfortunately, I am unable to zoom in on the test results to be able to actually read them. In a quick glance, however, it doesn't appear that anything is terribly out of whack. The WBC (white blood cells) and some of the related counts are on the high side of normal, which could indicate a mild infection - perhaps due to the condition of the teeth? Other than that the RBS (red blood cell count) is just a bit on the low side.

Unless money is an issue, I would just go ahead and have both the FIV and bartonella tested for. Then, that 'saga' is done and over. As far as all the questions regarding seniors, children at home, etc. - you need to ask to speak directly to the vet about it to get an accurate answer. Other personnel in the vet's office are not really equipped to answer a lot of detailed questions.

Both bartonella and FIV can cause stomatitis, gingivitis and a whole host of other issues - which are actually common to both. And none of the issues associated with either have to appear early on in a cat's life, but can become more active as the cat ages.

FIV can be transmitted through blood in other ways than just a serious cat bite or scratch. Any kind of wound exposure between the two could theoretically cause transmission. So, while not common, it can happen.

Also, bartonella can happen to indoor cats. For example, my cat is indoor only, but got tapeworms from a flea bite. So, if she could get tapeworms from a flea bite being indoors only, Ebony could have contracted bartonella from a bite from an infected flea while indoors.

I think you should write down every last question you have and either email them all to your vet so they can read through them and compose thorough answers, and then ask the vet for a phone consult so that they can respond. It is the only way you are going to get to the bottom of all the possible issues.

 

[ZepMom]

I wanted to share my thoughts. Please keep in mind this is what I understand from issues my cats have had. Can't really comment on lab reports. They tend to make me more confused at times.

My girl kitty had kidney issues around 12. We changed vet offices in an attempt to help her. She lived another 3 years due to finding a vet who understood her. What she to tolerate & if the stress something caused her was worth it. No constant bloodwork or trying to force her to eat prescription food. We were successful in switch over to wet food. We tried different prescription foods, but she ate mostly Friskies. The last year she ate Hill's K/D. I think feeding wet food would be beneficial if she's eating mostly dry. Higher moisture content to help if there are kidney issues. Also easier to feed while dealing with dental issues. She may already be eating wet?

As far as additional tesing, I'd ask how they plan to treat based on results. I feel sometimes medical professionals (doctors & vets) get to catch up with having labs/tests preformed. These can be quite expensive & I'd prefer spending that money on higher quality food, supplements & meds that may help condition. I do understand some meds need to be monitored to confirm correct dosage or such, but with FIV? Maybe I need to look into these conditions to better understand possible treatments.

My vet will advise when we can treat without costly tests or labs & when they are needed. She deals with many clients with limited resources & considers this when advise on testing/treatments. Sometimes tests aren't clear as to exact cause or issue anyway resulting in a treatment based on the vets experiences with similar cases.

Please keep in mind these are my personal thoughts based on my cats only. Hope Ebony will greatly improve after the dental procedure.

 

[Freedom]

Update: I guess I have my answer.

Today I took Ebony in to another vet. Took along the blood work from last week.
She is now on antibiotic (Clavamox) and will have dental on Wed.

Prior vet said once mouth was healed up, most likely the lab report will show all is well. This vet says highly unlikely. SMDA shows up when kidneys are down 40% of normal (early sign). The other values show up when kidneys are down 70% from normal. So she has kidney disease and will go on k/d once the dental is complete.

Prior vet said she is other wise healthy. This vet noted a marked heart murmur.

Prior vet said no need for antibiotics until the dental (which was going to be April 16th, earliest he had available). This vet said he would start her on Clavamox immediately, even before I mentioned antibiotics. I can keep up the pain meds, but give the Clavamox first (in case she gets away from me). And the dental will be Wednesday; less than 48 hours wait.

New vet never said a word re FIV or bartonella testing. And he got a urine sample today, will have the results tomorrow, but he said it looks very dilute.

I need to read Zepmom's post once more. (or several more times). I have 5 cats and kibble food is always out. With Ebony going on k/d, I have to figure out how to feed all the cats. I also need to think about giving Ebony some canned, even now, pre surgery (I have some here in the house already), since adding moisture to her intake would be a plus with kidney disease.

BTW prior vet had given me 2 vials of bupe for pain, 1 syringe and needle. I gave 6 doses (2x daily) using the needle in the rubber to load the syringe, then remove the needle and give orally. After 6, the needle was bent and dull, so I went in to get more needles. I was CHARGED for them. Pfft.

New vet said not to give bupe the morning of surgery.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Thanks for the update! I am hoping this new vet keeps up the better reputation that they appear to be presenting than the old vet.

Ask the new vet if there is really any issue to letting the other cats have access to the new k/d food for Ebony. It may mean more expense, but if there isn't any reason it would be bad for the others, it would sure help you with feeding them all. Also, if you are feeding Ebony some wet food (k/d or other wise), feeding the others at the same time with some wet could help matters for you. I have found the wet to be more filling, and therefore reducing the overall amount of dry that they need in between. Not to say for you not to put it out, but you might find they eat a little bit less of it when they are getting some wet food as well.

Crossing my fingers for Ebony's upcoming dental procedure. Keep us posted on that, and any time in the mean time that you would like to share!!!

 

[Freedom]

I fed primarily canned for years; then was advised that was a big part of all the dental issues my cats had. That kibble cleans the teeth. I had been told that kibble is like us eating graham crackers; it sticks! Not so, 2 different vets advised. So I stopped feeding any canned and went with only kibble. I will say the poops in the litter box dropped to about 1/4 size vs. when I was feeding canned food.

Vet already said no harm in all the cats eating k/d. So it is only a matter of price. As ZepMom said (and I've been through this before) often the cats don't LIKE the prescription foods. It would be just like a cat, that 4 of my 5 will eat it; and Ebony will be the one refusing it! lol

 

[FeebysOwner]

Too funny about the k/d, but to be sure, it is a chance. Do your research and see what other alternatives there are just in case that happens!! See if this article might help shed any light.

Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - Which Foods to Feed, and Which to Avoid

The wet vs. dry for teeth is a debate that will last beyond all of us. Personally, I have had 3 cats and the only one who had dental issues was the one that didn't eat at least some dry food. But, others will tell you - not so. I also think there are just some cats that are more prone to dental issues no matter what they eat (not that different from humans).

I do think there are positive advantages to having your cats eat some wet food. If for no other reason than the extra moisture it provides. And, yes, the more junk in the food (more often found with dry) the more poop there is, due to the processed and expelled 'stuff' in the food.

 

[Freedom]

Until a month back, I always fed grain free. Over 15 years of only grain free.

Thanks for that link!

 

[Freedom]

Ebony is home from her dental. 4 rear molars out (you know, those 3 root thingies). Vet said she has other teeth which are bad, but he took the worst ones today; said she was under anesthesia a bit over 2 hours and that is his limit.

During discussions, he also said various things can contribute to these dental issues including FIV and Bartonella; but as the care plan is the same he doesn't see any reason to run the tests. (I did NOT even ask about this, HE brought it up!)

He suggested I look at this site for a water additive to help prevent plague build up: http://www.vohc.org/VOHCAcceptedProductsTable_Cats.pdf
Edit: Above website seems to be a marketing thing for one brand of products, not an impartial review (which is what vet led me to believe). And furthermore, after 10 minutes I have yet to find ANY of the listed products in a place where I can purchase them. Waste of time.

I've changed both kibble and soft food for Ebony, based on the link from FeebiesOwner. I took in info on that, he found it interesting and kept a copy. I'll attach the chart I did. At the top is the link to the website. Then the list of prescription k/d kibble. Below that is the food I was using (Earthborn) and the food I now have for Ebony. ( I did not include the soft food info.)