Dusty and Lily: first timer here

[chrisbrault]

Hi all,
I'm new to this site, found it when researching how to socialize feral kittens. Am hoping for some suggestions/advice/etc.
A week ago, we adopted two kittens that are 2.5 months old, brother (Dusty) and sister (Lily). mom was a feral cat rescued by a lady right after the kittens were born, the lady had been keeping the kittens in a crate, litter trained them, and working on socializing them til we took two of them.
I had NO CLUE how hard this was going to be! Have had cats - in multiples and as kittens - all my life, but never "wild things". Had them locked in out bathroom for a day and a half, taking them out a few times to cuddle and talk to them, then gave them the run of the house by default (one took off on us.) They got upstairs in my son's room which has a ton of storage (converted attic space), and have basically been dashing out at night to eat and use litter box. We cna go up there and sit on bed and play using a cat fishing toy, they'll come out but not too close, also tried offering treats to them.
So that's how we've spent a week. Last PM got ahold of Dusty and he's back in the bathroom, sometimes hiding behind water heater, sometimes lying on towel rack and letting us pet him. Once he gets in my arms he's content (a bit shaky/vibrating if that makes sense - can tell he's nervous, but it wears off in a minute or two), was even rolling over on my today and sniffing at my hand and purring, which I think is a good sign.
Lily is another matter entirely, she is hiding among the crap upstairs (WAAY too much to try moving it, trust me!), only dashing down here in the middle of the night to eat.
Unfortunately, our house is kind of a big open room, with only the bathroom and our bedroom having doors and there's not really a way to rig a close or door to the upstairs, we worked at it today but I doubt it will work long-term.
I'm reading that they should really be seperated and not given run of the house (BOY do I see why!!), I'm wondering should I put Lily in a kennel for now or in bathroom with Dusty?
I guess now that I've given you a ton of background, I'm hoping for some thoughts and suggestions on how to proceed. Any help is HUGELY appreciated!

 

[StefanZ]

Hi!

Welcome to the Forums!

I suspect part of the problem is not they had a feral mom. Being raised in a home (captivity?) they arent really feral. But them being raised in a crate is sooner the problem...

Dusty is coming well you write. Thus no real problem there.

I think you should have them in a somewhat confined place. Ie bathroom and the bedroom, the rooms with doors. Make sure they do have some "legal" hiding place. A cat igloo, or an sideturned cardboard box with something nice to lie on is fine.

Do NOT separate them. Work on with Dusty so Lily sees you cuddling, After a while she will dare she too... A positive example is always useful with cats, and with humans too.

There are also other possible advices on working with shy kittens, but this is a good beginning.


Tx for helping these kittens,

and Good luck!

 

[strange_wings]

Originally Posted by StefanZ

I suspect part of the problem is not they had a feral mom. Being raised in a home (captivity?) they arent really feral. But them being raised in a crate is sooner the problem...

You're right. If they were taken away from their mother before 4wks, they wouldn't even know better. BUT, many "tame" kittens can become skittish cats due to their personalities and under socialization. I have one like this, he's not feral but hates strangers. He'd likely turn aggressive if cornered by someone he's never met (he growls at strangers outside and will sit in the hall doorway and growl at company) - where as my semi feral kittens would just hide hiss. I've had other semi ferals in the past that were just scaredy cats, too.

At some point you'll have to let them out into a decent size room, like your bedroom, so they can start interacting with you that way. Kittens need a lot of stimulation and can't be cooped up forever - but you still need to be able to find them in case something happens.
Keep them together, it sounds like Dusty will tame easier and he'll be your key since you don't have another cat in the house to show them.
Take your time, be careful when walking up to them, use treats and toys, and interact with them down on the floor - if you can be lower than them at any time it could help, too. You have to gain their trust first, once you have some measure of that the rest will eventually come along.

Add a cat tree soon. As they gain confidence in the home they'll like being up high. It'll make them feel less small and exposed than they are on the floor.
My male semi feral kitten started feeling much more secure around me when he could sit on stuff and paw at my head... and grab my hair and chew on it.

You've already noticed Dusty's easier to interact with when he's up on the towel rack.

And a warning for the future. With no mother cat or another older cat to teach them manners, your kittens may get a little rough if they start playing with you. Always redirect their rough play to each other or a toy.

 

[chrisbrault]

Thanks so much for the advice.
I finally gave in tonight and am trying to trap Lily to reunite them and get her out of the attic so we can try and socialize her - she is REALLY REALLY skiddish - and FAST! Dusty hisses once in a while, but its kind of halfhearted and otherwise he's a dollbaby. He's been rolling around on our laps and purring and that gives me hope. I did put him in a kennel, just so we can get them back together and until we can get Lily to a point where she doesnt head for the hills at the sight of us. I'm willing to accept she may never be a cuddler. Thinking in a few days we'll try and put them in our bedroom - going to be awhile I suspect before they can get the run of the house, seeing as this seems to have made Lily worse if anything.

 

[ldg]

Thank you for adopting these kitties!

Trust me - IT WILL BE WORTH IT! Part of the issue with cats is that they HAVE such distinct and diverse personalities. Lily may never run up to snuggle with strangers - but once you cross that trust barrier (which is what socializing is all about), you will experience one of the most amazing human - animal bonds!

Have you been able to get Lily in a crate - and both of them in your bedroom? I think this really is the best advice. The contained space, but larger than the bathroom. I totally agree that Lily will learn from Dusty that people aren't all bad.

Things you need to know:

Looking cats directly in the eye is a sign of aggression. Once they're socialized and trust you, this isn't a problem - but until then, look at their forheads or over their heads. Don't force eye contact. In fact, during the process of working with them, "looking" at them with your eyes closed is a great trust-builder.

For scaredy cats, ferals, or under socialized kitties, people walking towards them are scary. While working with them, sitting on the floor - being lower than they are or at their level - and sitting sideways to her rather than facing her will be less threatening.

You can use Feliway to help promote a calmer atmosphere for them. Feliway is a spray or plug-in product that is a synthetic hormone that mimics the "friendly" markers in cats cheecks. It should NEVER be used near the litter boxes or scratching posts (wrong scent - it was developed to help cats that were not using litter boxes), but when sprayed in other places of the room, it can really help kitties feel calmer.

Feral cats in particular respond well to relaxed classical music - especially harp music. Either on a 24/7 loop or when you're not in there - or during the day - whatever schedule you want, you may want to consider getting some. These two were made specifically for animals:

http://www.musicmypet.com
This is specifically for cats: http://www.catfaeries.com/music-for-cats.html

The bedroom is a GREAT place for socializing, because there is nothing less threatening than a sleeping human. !!!! When they're comfortable enough to investigate you, they may choose to do so while you're asleep.

Best, at first, just to pretend to still be asleep.

Because unlike dogs, cats are not hard wired to think people are "good," there are other things we can do to help them understand we represent good things - and they WILL come around.

Initially, focusing on meeting their needs and not wanting anything else will go a long way to them trusting you. Doing everything on a schedule helps establish this. Scoop their litter at the saem time every day. Clean and refresh their water at the same time every day. Fill their food dish at the same time every day. If you feed them wet meals, feed them at the same time every day. In fact - knock softly on your bedroom door and tell them you're coming in.

Food is a BIG motivator, and the routine helps establish that you provide the food.

Also, get a t-shirt really good and sweaty. Put it under the food dish. This reinforces the association of your scent with things they love.

Talk out loud to them. Read out loud. Sing. Just be in there as often as you can - not always trying to interact with them. Dusty's come a long way - but let Lily come around in her own time. Let her watch - let her be scared. Ignore her.

Whenever we feel we're not getting enough attention for our cats, we stop seeking it out. We start ignoring them. After a couple of days, they are all over us. Cats are contrarians. And as soon as Lily is comfortable that you want NOTHING from her - and she sees you playing with Dusty and she hears him purring... and she associates your scent with food she loves... she'll get curious. And she'll seek you out. She'll be fearful and confused at first.

But if you ever see her walking toward you, don't keep walking toward her. Sit down, sideways to her. Just talk softly, and don't look at her. If you keep treats handy, slowly sliding some to her and leaving them at arm's length - but pulling your arm back - this will help her get used to being near you. The more often she's near without you trying to "do" anything to her, the more confident she'll become that you are no threat.

Think of it like this.... you and a brother or sister have been orphaned. You were thrown in an orphanage where you were confined to the human equivalent of a cat cage. Then you were put on a plane and flown to China. EVERYTHING has changed. The smells have changed, the territory has changed, the people have changed - and you are scared out of your wits.

You don't speak the language, so you don't understand that this is your new home and your new mom and dad. The last thing you want is your new mom and dad trying to hug you and love you. You need some time to adjust and to understand what's happened. You need to get comfortable in your room, and you need to understand that you're going to be fed regularly, and that you have a clean bathroom and environment. When you're more confident that you're not going to be used for medical experiments and that these people have no evil intent, then you'd be open to having your hair brushed or to a good night hug.

...and if your sister or brother seemed happy around these people, that would help you come around too.

Please keep us posted! I think Lily will be a bit traumatized getting her to the bedroom, but it will pay off in the long run. Working with under socialized kitties is often a process of one step forward two steps back.... but there are also times that you'll take three steps forward, and maybe just one step back.

And don't forget to ask ANY questions you have along the way!

 

[chrisbrault]

Wow, thanks for all your suggestions. Here's an update on the last two days:
caught Lily, crated them both overnight, then let them into the bathroom with us during the day for 2 days, took turns sitting in the floor and a chair while they ate - made sure they saw me providing food and only letting them have it next to me. Played a lot with them, well, mostly with Dusty while Lily eyed us up. Sat in a chair and read and just chilled out, also read aloud and my daughter did likewise.
Last night, we had them on our laps and Lily hightailed it and scrambled, we'd been letting them on our laps in the living room (maybe not such a hot idea?), finally re-caught her this afternoon and they are both in the bathroom.
I'm still stuck on the whole crating vs/ bathroom thing...we'd put the kennel in the dining room between the dining room and living room so they could be near us while we were still up and get more used to things. But our bathroom is also the laundry room and its BIG, like 8x10 and we blocked off behind the washer/dryer so they cant get back there, they seem happy in there, lying on the towels, sitting on the cat tree looking out the window. We put a fairly comfy chair in there so we can sit a lot with them and a night light tonight since this is the first night this week they have not been put in the crate (thought maybe crating at night gave them a thought of "this is bedtime" but all they seem to do is cry all night in there.
I like the idea of music, I'll be giving that a try tomorow!
We did put a shirt of my daughter's in the crate and Dusty slept on it.
Now we just need to figure out how to block off the attic part of the upstairs - that's right where Lily headed last night! I was not familiar with Feliway, but we have used Cat-calmer water additive for stressed cats in the past with success and started them both on it early this week, think it's helping. Also trying to establish a routine for mornings and evenings and since my hsuband is home during the day he's hanging out in the bathroom with them playing (i joke that they are already no longer my kittens, he's really loving this!), glad you mentioned knocking on the door - he has been and I was teasing him, but apparently he was onto something.

 

[sarahp]

I think a crate would be worse for them - they'll just feel trapped rather than secure.

I would let them run loose in your bedroom and just keep them in there until they have gained confidence. You will find before too long they'll be up on the bed.

I have a scaredy cat named Lily too, we got her when she was only a couple of months old and she was a complete fraidy cat. It's taken years for her to come out of her shell, with little improvements along the way. The first big breakthrough was when she started sleeping on the bed - she would accept pats there and nowhere else. She felt less threatened by us lying down and being quiet. The bed is still her favourite place for pats, but just this year she's started getting more comfortable and letting us pat her almost everywhere. She still hates being picked up and still won't sit on our laps, but when it's just me at home and I'm on the couch she's really affectionate and will cuddle up to me for a while. It really does just take time and patience.

If I was doing it again, and what I recommend to you, is confining to the bedroom, and doing forced cuddles like you're doing with each kitten. Put them in your lap and pat and cuddle them for as long as you can. Find a food they LOVE to eat, and put it out and sit there with them until they eat it. Get a toy called "Da Bird" if you can, you should be able to get it from most pet stores. It's an amazing cat toy, and I swear it has done wonders for socialising my ferals, and even Lily - it's what first started bringing her out of her shell.

Lily will definitely settle down seeing her brother socialising with you.

Stick with it though, it's wel worth it in the end. My Lily is such a shy cat, but every moment I have with her is so precious to me because I know how far she's come, and I absolutely adore her for it

 

[ldg]

Oh yes, definitely - keep them confined to the bathroom or your bedroom for several weeks or several months, even. Cats only need a large territory in the wild - to use for hunting. But their nests are very small. So when they're being fed, they don't need a lot of territory to be happy, they just need enough activity to not be bored.

Personally, I'd move them to the bedroom and keep them there for as long as it takes for Lily to not want to bolt. And being around you sleeping will help her come around.

 

[chrisbrault]

So we are entering week 3....I can now scoop up both kittens and they'll lay on our laps for a half hour or longer at a time, they asre both now actively playing with a string/fishing/etc. We moved the crate into our bedroom and are crating them (together for now...see my worry below!) at night, and they are in the large bathroom during the day, we have a comfy chair in there and sit in there and read, play with them, sit while they eat, etc.
They still seem almost headshy in that we have to sort of sneakily pick them up - the hisses are more half-hearted and they are not hiding in the bathroom - I do think if given the run of the house this soon, they'll bolt right back upstairs.

My male kitten (Dusty) has started something I'm not sure if it's playing or preparing to mate, and I'm worried! He's climbing on his sister's back and chewing/biting on her neck.
Is this just kitten play or do I need to seperate them until I can get together the $$ to have one at a time spayed/neutered?
Looked into low-cast spaying programs, there is nothing in my area. Hoping to talk to my vet today and see we he's willing to work with me.

 

[strange_wings]

So they're, what? Barely 4 months? While possible, it's just more likely that he's being the dominate kitten in play. I have some right around the same age and the male kitten chews all over his sisters - and tries that with one of my adult cats (definitely not attempting to mate a 3 year old neutered male!). But you're running out of time.

I'd say start planning for your next paycheck. If funds are tight, try getting the male done first since that might be a little cheaper. Plus, some vets like to wait on spaying female kittens.


I'm planning for the first part of January for my male. I still need to get him in for his rabies vac since he pushed that back with his little incident.

 

[chrisbrault]

Made an appt for Jan 12th! MY vet wanted over $200 each, so I finally reached someone at a program called SNAP that offers discount coupons for spaying. While I have to go about an hour away, for them both to have the exam is only $140, $55 each for the FeLuk and Aids testing, and using the program I finally located, it's $35 for him to be fixed and $50 for her.
I called 5 vets in an hour radius, everyone wanted to wait til 6 mo of age to do either one, but I know that is a semi-outdated philosophy.
Now, on the socialization side of this adventure, last night I put Dusty on my bed and he snuggled next to me for about two hours, stretched out, feeling sercure as he was rolling onto his back and exposing his belly. Still trying to work on convincing Lily she doesnt hate people.

 

[strange_wings]

My vet says 6 months, too, BUT it's really more depending on weight, health, and situation. My male is around the same age as your's and he said he'd neuter him soon because he's a good weight (and he's huge). Vet assistant that handles the phone just says 6 months - most of them aren't in the position to say more than that because they do not want to get in trouble.

How much do they each weigh?

I'd just be really worried about separating them without other cats to teach them to socialize with you. Lily could get more withdrawn if she feels to insecure.

I know my three rely heavily on each other - the most skittish one will cry if she can't find her brother or sister.

I hope all goes well with the low cost spay and neuter. Girls are usually kept over night, but males can go home same day if all goes well. Since you have to drive so far you might want to talk with the vet.

FIV and FeLV costs $38 per cat here.

 

[chrisbrault]

Oh boy, are they acting like kittens today! We've been letting them out of the crate in our bedroom during the day, keeping their water and litterpan in the crate so they know they can go back to it whenever. All morning I've laughed at them chasing each other, messing with shoelaces, etc. Neither has discovered my scrapbooking desk with all the ribbon rolls yet...I'm dreading that moment. But they are having FUN today, racing around, tails wagging, playing up a storm!

The vet tech where I booked the low-cost appt did say since she knows me and that my husband and I both work in the medical feild, if we are comfortable and can keep her seperate for 24 hrs, we can bring Lily home same-day. We'll see when the time comes.

 

[strange_wings]

Uh oh! Don't let them ever discover the goodies on your desk! Get some really nice containers for all of your ribbon, and anything small that could be ingested or chewed into a soggy mess. I know scrapbooking stuff is expensive so you don't want them ruining anything or it becoming a medical emergency. Pens will be safe, just be prepared to have some disappear.

I have a lot of crafts that I do, and have always had cats. Everything they could eat or potentially ruin (or cover in fur) gets put away.

I hope all goes well with their upcoming appointments.

 

[ldg]

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Uh oh! Don't let them ever discover the goodies on your desk! Get some really nice containers for all of your ribbon, and anything small that could be ingested or chewed into a soggy mess. I know scrapbooking stuff is expensive so you don't want them ruining anything or it becoming a medical emergency. Pens will be safe, just be prepared to have some disappear.

I have a lot of crafts that I do, and have always had cats. Everything they could eat or potentially ruin (or cover in fur) gets put away.

I hope all goes well with their upcoming appointments.

This is such good advice! Cats are very 3D, so at some point they will discover it - and you'll be so much happier if you take the annoying time to box it rather than have it wrecked.... besides, searching through cat poop for several days because there's a bunch of missing ribbon is so no fun. We left wand toys out before we knew how dangerous it was....

...but sounds like things are really going well!

 

[strange_wings]

Thankfully I've never had to hunt for anything ingested. The closest I've came was yanking a couple inches of a soggy ribbon out of a cats mouth and fighting Tomas for about 4" of the cloth string that he chewed off my pj pants while I was sleeping in them.

Nothing is safe.


Another good tip. If you're going to be buying a lot of smaller containers so you can organize everything nicely - check local dollar stores.

 

[chrisbrault]

Most of my craft stuff is packed away, I'm sort of OCD about that, but my ribbon spools are on a long rod that hangs, not sure how I'll change that up.
I once sifted thru cat litter for a golf tee, long story...but found it!
We're getting there, I'm just impatient. So used to having cats attached to my hip, this is an adjustment for our family!

 

[jennyr]

Sounds like you are doing great! Feral or semiferal kittens socialise at different rates, depending on their personality and their history. I do agree that their early cage confinement probably didn't help. And it is difficult to be patient, but so worth it in the end. I have a cat, Biscotte, who turned up as a feral in my barn, aged around 5 months. I managed to trap her after feeding her for three weeks, and brought her into a disused bathroom for several weeks, spending time with her each day, before she would allow me near her. I left a radio on for her, and lots of toys, but it took time to teach her how to play. After I began introducing her to the other cats and brought her into the main house, she calmed down specially when Wellington adopted her as his special buddy, and she realised love and care from both humans and cats were available along with the food and warmth. It was a year before she would actually come to me of her own accord and she still hides from strangers. But now, two years after I found her, she is a real lapcat and jumps on me for cuddles and scritches all the time, ans sleeps on my bed curled up next to her Wellington. She is so affectionate I can hardly believe she is the same cat. So do be patient, and things will work out.