Dog food advice needed

[taryn]

Since Paul has decided that he doesn't want any more dying cats, we have decided on a dog. Not sure how Nuts will react to this, I know he has a healthy fear of dogs, but I'm not sure if it goes beyond healthy. Attitude was terrified of dogs(but she fell behind Mitzi's fence before she was 8 weeks old and had 2 very cat aggressive dogs try to eat her after Mitzi let them out and we discovered Attitude was behind her fence, she was unharmed physically she got into a spot that the dogs couldn't reach, but would start shaking anytime she saw a dog.) Nuts walked behind the fence at the dogs but quickly ran back out. He hasn't been to the vet(enough to gage a reaction to dogs, his last appointment which was his yearly was Dec 28 my pets do go to the vet when they need to) or out enough for me to know how exactly he feels about dogs.

It will be a small dog 20 lbs or under and we are going to try to find one that already has a proven track record with cats and is either friendly or even better, ignores cats. It also has to be good with children as Bobby is 8. We are looking for an already housebroken dog that is either an adult(preferably) or possibly an older, as in almost adult, puppy. I'm not willing to deal with a puppy and I'm certainly not dealing with trying to housebreak a dog. Fur doesn't really matter, I'd prefer to not get a dog that requires grooming(my last dog was an Old English Sheepdog, need I say more) but if one that does picks us then so be it, Mitzi is a groomer and I know she does great work and loves dogs so if I need a groomer I have one. We're going to let the dog choose us and then find out if we have an appropriate match. Obviously if we have major issues that involve any animal(Nuts) or human(Bobby) safety the dog won't be staying. I can deal with a dominating dog(I raised a sheepdog who did try to 'challenge' my place in the pack once she reached her own adolescence around 12- 18 months old(I was 16 or 17), she quickly learned through gentle dog language(light muzzle holding and me 'laying' across her side, she was 80 lbs I wasn't going to hurt her) she was below me in the pack and that wasn't going to change, and she was a very happy well adjusted dog) and so can Paul(he raised a very friendly doberman) but I'm not going to risk the safety of my kid or Nuts. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. I'm being realistic, any animal I have will be mine for life unless they do something that threatens the life or safety of other animals or people that I consider important.

OK, dog foods. What should I use? Obviously I have to make the change slowly so in the beginning he or she will eat whatever they were fed at the shelter or rescue but I will want to get the dog on a better diet as soon as possible, taking it slowly of course, a cat with the runs has a better chance of not having an accident than a dog so no thanks and cleaning up barf is not my idea of a good time.

We are starting to really look tomorrow so I'll keep y'all updated on our search for a dog. Also, yes we have the money and this dog will be insured unless it has something pre existing(Attitude darn near broke me in vet bills.)

Taryn

 

[Willowy]

There are a lot more great dog foods than great cat foods. Shouldn't be hard to find one that agrees with the dog. What brand do you feed your cats? Might be good to start with the dog version of that brand. What's your price range?

 

[taryn]

Nuts eat Solid Gold Indigo Moon(there are 5 different dog formulas and I have no clue where to start) and whatever I pick up for canned food(FF, Soulistic, Wellness, Blue Wilderness, By Nature, etc, most high quality), he has a lot of variety in brands I feed canned/pouch wise since he appears to have an iron stomach and doesn't have any apparent food allergies(being immunocompromised it doesn't surprise that his immune system has better things to do than fight harmless stuff.)

I'm trying to stick to around the same I pay for 15 lbs of Nuts' food so $34 for 15 lbs give or take a few dollars(all of the SG ones fall in my willing to pay price range.) I have fed Nuts Natural Balance(and I liked it) in the past. Just wanted opinions on a good dog food.

I'm just hoping for an iron stomach dog. The last thing I want is a dog with a super fussy tummy where I have to worry about him/her getting sick because they accidentally ate a little cat food(I plan to keep it separate but we all know that even with the best plans animals can and do sometimes swap bowls to see if what the other has is better. I'm going to try and keep everyone on their proper species diet at all times but a few nibbles here and there might happen and I'd rather not worry about it making an animal that has to go outside to potty sick.)

Taryn

 

[taryn]

Forgot to add that I am totally clueless on dog food. I have no idea what is or isn't good for a dog food wise. Obviously no corn, wheat, or soy, no animal needs that. My parents fed Abby(the Old English Sheepdog) Iams, which I am going to avoid like the plague, but she did well on it and lived to be 11 1/2 years old(average life of OES is 10-12 years) so she lived to a ripe old age before her liver or spleen burst(possibly due to her arthritis meds she had been on since 6 or 7 or simply old age or a combo of the 2, her last blood work less than 6 months prior showed no organ dysfunction or any other abnormalities and they had switched her arthritis meds to one that was easier on the liver) and she had to be helped across the bridge due to massive internal bleeding.

Do I go with grain free or do I feed a dog food with grains? Is there a huge difference between the two that it matters? Nuts has Missing Link added to his food everyday so he has some grain with his food, male cats and totally grain free don't mix and some of the canned I give him does sometimes contain grain. I know what to look for in general with cat food but have no idea what is good for dog food since the are 2 very different beasts. Like I know dogs can be vegetarians. I have no intention of having a vegetarian dog, unless necessary for health reasons. Mitzi's dog Dylan is on a home made vegetarian diet(nothing with a face) due to liver and diabetes issues, all the normal liver meds make him violently ill, I just know you can do it with dogs and have healthy dog but if you do it with a cat you are going to most likely wind up with a dead cat.

I absolutely 100% can not do anything that involves raw due to Nuts being FeLV+. FeLV+ and raw do not mix due to him being immunocompromised. Not sure if I would want to even if I could. Getting everything right would worry me.

Taryn

 

[Willowy]

Dog food is cheaper than cat food, so if you're willing to pay the same amount I don't think anything would be out of that price range. Well, maybe Orijen. . .yikes, it's pricey.

The exact food I'd recommend would depend on the size and age of the dog you get. For instance, a large-breed puppy shouldn't have most grain-free foods. An older dog with arthritis might not do well with a food containing potatoes. Etc.

The Solid Gold dog food equivalent of Indigo Moon is called Barking at the Moon. In choosing dog foods, looking for the same thing that you'd look for in a cat food is fine. Dogs are more omnivorous than cats, but are still carnivores, and most do better on a food with high meat content. Rotating brands is also a good idea, so pick out 3-4 foods you like for the rotation.

What stores do you have available? Just the big-box stores (like PetCo/Petsmart), TSC, feed stores?

 

[taryn]

We have PetSmart and Petco. I haven't checked out any of the feed or farm stores to know if they have anything.

Taryn

 

[nekochan]

Just a heads up, several of the small/dog breed dogs are difficult to housebreak so it may be challenging to find a fully housebroken older puppy. One suggestion if you are concerned about that and health/temperament is to check with good breeders of breeds you like, sometimes they may have an older puppy available or even an adult who has already been health tested (make sure the parents are also tested for whatever genetic conditions are found in the breed.)

Also the whole "dogs want to dominate you" thing is not really the best way to train a dog, the dominance thing is outdated and has been disproven to an extent, holding a dog's muzzle or holding them on their side are in fact not normal "dog language" that an adult dog would receive in a pack. There are better ways to get dogs to listen.
Here is some info:
http://www.fun4fido.co.uk/blog/debun...ance-myth.html
http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancemyth.pdf
http://www.dogwhispererdvd.com/article-domin-myth.html

As far as diet, personally I prefer grain free. Dogs have no requirement for grains.
Pretty much any of the grain free foods at non-chain pet stores are generally good choices (feed stores may also carry these). You will want to switch very slowly if the dog has not had grain free before though, to avoid stomach upset as grain free tends to be higher in protein and richer, and a change from a grain-heavy diet to a high quality diet is a big difference.

Some good grain-free foods include Instinct, Orijen, Wellness CORE, Taste of the Wild, NOW Grain Free, Canidae Grain Free, EVO and Blue Wilderness.
If you don't want to go with a grain free, some higher quality foods with grain include By Nature, Nature's Variety Prairie, Merrick, Innova, and Fromm Four Star Nutritionals.

If you want to go with really high end foods, there are also dehydrated and freeze-dried foods which are closer to raw than kibble. Since you're getting a small dog, this would possibly be a feasible option because although they are expensive a small dog wouldn't need to eat as much. Some examples of these are Nature's Variety freeze-dried raw, Stella and Chewy's, Honest Kitchen, and Ziwipeak.

 

[sharky]

I am with Willowy ... many more good dog foods ....

I use a with grain food due to have dealt with many illnesses in my dogs oh and this one does NOT do well on High protein nor grain free...I have a large shih ztu...

As with Cats I make sure the meat to grain is a one to one ratio... Ie if food has three grains or starches it needs three meats ( prefer meals in the dry food ... meat meal in a wet food IMHO = low quality, though many "good brands" now do it )
I use Kirkland puppy with stella and chewys freeze dried... Occasionally I mix in a no grain food... IMHO raw is very easy to do with dogs and then grain is NOT at all needed cause they are getting bone and organs reg...

 

[taryn]

I said the youngest I would go was older 'puppy'(older than 7-8 months but under 1 year) but we are more looking for an adultTaryn. I know some small dogs are near impossible to housebreak that is why I want one already trained and I don't have the patience to housebreak a puppy. Potty training Bobby was more than enough housebreaking for me.

With Abby it was the only thing that worked, I tried other ways and I did not use any extreme methods. If she wanted up she was let right back up, I never held her down, there was no force to it, I lightly grabbed her muzzle, never forced it shut. I want to say she was more 'mouthy' than anything else. Problem is when you have a 'mouthy' 80 lb dog they are big and so are their teeth. She never broke the skin and I went with what felt right and it happened to work. I didn't listen to the trainer that said you had to beat the dominance out of them(that sounded like te exact opposite you would want to do.) If she was getting mouthy it was lightly grab her muzzle and tell her 'no biting.' That was it, no physical force and she seemed happier opnce she knew she wasn't going to be mouthy(it's part of the breed, they use nipping to herd sheep) and that her place in the pack was below me. I didn't break her(didn't want to or need to), she still herded anything that would let her(and a few things that didn't.)

I'll look into food depending on what I get and from where and then figure out what to feed from there.

Taryn

 

[nekochan]

I would make sure to be very clear about what you mean by "housebroken" when you are looking for a dog, because people will say "yeah sure he's fully housebroken" but what they really mean is he only has accidents a few times a week, or only once a day, or only if let alone more than 3 hours etc... So make sure you describe exactly what you mean when you tell them you want a dog who is housebroken.

Please if you have a chance take a look at my links, they explain the reason why the whole dominance/alpha dog thing has been disproven. It was based on wolf pack studies from the past, but the people who did the studies have since retracted their statements because the studies were flawed, were not done on natural wild wolf packs and the results were misinterpreted (and anyways, wolves are not dogs.)

 

[kattiekitty]

Yeah there are a lot more good dog foods out there than cat foods, plus they are cheaper per pound. My dog, which is a med-large mix , does get allergies to certain foods and does have a sensitive stomach on certain foods. I have him on a food with grain as grain free isn't tolerated. Right now he is on Merricks dry and canned. I also rotate dry foods with Merricks, Fromm's four star nutritionals and Nature's Variety Prairie. He used to be on Innova or Ca Naturals, but since the buy out by Proctor and Gamble, I refuse to buy it. Since being on the Merricks Dry though, my dogs' coat has never been better. He used to be really itchy, shed a lot and really flaky skin and since he is a black dog, that is really noticable. Anyways, I am really impressed with Merricks and it is comparable to what we were paying for innova. It is designed for rotation feeding which is cool and my dog really likes it. A 15 pound bag lasts about a month and a half, and I think for a 57 pound dog that is really good. He gets a cup in the morning and a half cup plus half can of food at night. He is older and a little less active but not by much.
Other good foods that I reccomend at work(I'm a vet tech and hate Science diet), are Blue Buffalo, although that has a little too low of a protein content, Solid Gold, Go Natural, Natural Balance, TOTW, Orijen, Acana ect. Some of the more affordable foods that are still way better than Science Diet, Iams, Purina andthe like, are Chicken Soup For the Dog Lovers Soul, and Kirkland. My parents have their extremely sensitive dog on Chicken Soup and she does great. Can't beat the price either. If you have a costco membership, I've known several people that have had really good luck with Kirkland food as well. I think it is a matter of trial and error and each dog is different and will react differently to different foods.

 

[tillymoo]

You seem to be looking for that near 'perfect' dog that we'd all like to own

have you contacted specific breed rescues which would narrow it down and in all honesty many breed rescues use foster homes so technically they have been road tested and then matched accordingly. Or even a breeder that may have a dog come back to them that they have bred previously.
At just your average rescue many are kenelled so their temperment/history cannot be vouched for and believe you me MANY people lie about why they are giving up their dog so it can be pot luck, they may have seperation anxiety, chewing, barking, nervous aggression, dog aggressive, not housebroken, do not like men, women, children etc etc but have been relinquished because the old owner says they have to move

Be prepared to be homechecked rescues want whats best for the dog too.

As for food if its healthy and happy on what its being fed why change? i personally raw feed mine and have done for years when i used to feed commercial i always looked at the first line of ingredients if the first ingredient was corn/grain i wasn't buying it. Dogs do not need grains its just a filler and you'll be poop scooping your yard for eternity.
Honest kitchen is becoming very very popular by the way for people that don't want to or can't barf but will compromise.

 

[taryn]

Abby was a special case on getting her mouthiness under control. I don't care the science behind it and I used it long enough for her to quit being mouthy(maybe 2-3 weeks) and it got thrown out the window never to be used again. She quit being mouthy, which is what I needed done. She never had a problem listening when I told her to do something(prior or after this), she did have a stubborn streak but that was just her personality. I'm not going to use it again unless nessesary(with a large dog) and it has no part in anything to do with a small dog.

I don't want a perfect dog, they don't exist and would be boring if they did. The rescues I look at use foster homes so they know if the dog is house broken and are honest if they aren't perfect yet. They als make sure they know what the dog does and doesn't want. I'm using specific rescues(that do home visit before adoption) because I have to have a dog I know is not going to kill or injure my cat.

Rescues can't afford decent food so I know I'm going to have to get a dog off Purina or crap food like that. I'm not feeding crap, if the dog is on something that isn't crap the dog will stay on what it's currently on. That is why I'm thinking of food.

Taryn

 

[feralvr]

Yeah, it is unlikely the dog will be on anything healthy being from a rescue, but you never know

. I have two jack Russels that are twelve now. I have fed them Fromm four star grain free. They are now on the senior diet that Fromm has. I really like that food but you have to get it a natural pet food store. Petco sell Wellness Core now and that is another good food for dogs. My cats are on Wellness Core too.

It is so confusing with so many to choose from. Be careful of Orijen, excellent food but very rich and some dogs have digestion trouble with it, loose poops!! I had to take my dogs off of it.. Taste of the Wild is a good one too and a little less expensive than Orijen for sure!

Good luck with picking your new dog

 

[momofmany]

Originally Posted by Taryn

I absolutely 100% can not do anything that involves raw due to Nuts being FeLV+. FeLV+ and raw do not mix due to him being immunocompromised. Not sure if I would want to even if I could. Getting everything right would worry me.

Taryn

Do you understand that adding a dog into a household with a cat can cause significant stress to the cat? If Nuts is FeLV+, the addition of a dog could cause enough stress that Nuts could become seriously ill? I have 2 cats with auto-immune diseases, both of which get set off with any odd change of routine. They both went off the deep end when I adopted our dogs as puppies (7 years ago).

I don't want to discourage you from getting a dog if you really want one. What I would encourage is for you to adopt a very mellow adult dog that will basically leave Nuts completely alone.

We feed our dogs Merrick and Orijen.

 

[purplepei]

I have found Artemis and Canidae to be a good food.

I wouldn't get grain free unless you are getting a full grown dog. I have read that it is too much protein for a growing dog. Even though I have full grown dogs I still would rather not risk it. Dogs are omnivores and don't require as much protein as cats.

 

[nekochan]

Originally Posted by Feralvr

It is so confusing with so many to choose from. Be careful of Orijen, excellent food but very rich and some dogs have digestion trouble with it, loose poops!! I had to take my dogs off of it.. Taste of the Wild is a good one too and a little less expensive than Orijen for sure!

None of my dogs had trouble with Orijen. They all did great on it. The only reason I'm not still using it is my GSD has food allergies.

 

[taryn]

http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/18274219

That is Dexter. he is a Jack Russel collie mix, he's around 18 months- 2 years old. He was hyper at first but has calmed right down. He never dirtied his kennel at the rescue and was fostered in the beginning and was crate trained and house broken.

They weren't sure about cats but when they took him back to the cats he looked at them and went about exploring.

They bypassed their home visit after Jeanette called Mitzi(our next door neighbor) at work and she gave us a glowing reference. Jeanette and Mitzi have been friends forever and Mitzi had talked about us and the cats and how well we took care of them.

We have him for a one week trial, Nuts doesn't think too highly of the new addition. He was puffed and hissing- full out Halloween cat. A little re-directed aggression when I tried to touch him. I'm fast, he didn't get me. Dex did growl a little softly when Nuts was hissing(and wagged his tail when Nuts was trying to get Paul for trying to touch him and then grab him) so I thought we might have problems. So far Nuts has cornered him once(I was at the store getting dog stuff, we didn't plan on having him immediately, Paul broke it the second he saw it) and he just sat there. Nuts has run him around a few times and Dex doesn't seem to mind, he even just got out of the way when Nuts decided to chase and bat at him(Nuts got less than a minute in the bathroom to calm down, Nuts didn't want to stay in the bathroom and I'm not making him.) He ignores Nuts. Right now Nuts is on his back legs resting his front ones on the footstool of Paul's recliner(Dex has decided to crawl into Paul's lap.) He's sniffing Dex, prior he was batting at his tail.

Nuts still isn't too sure of this situation, he is more curious than anything else now. He has calmed down. We're still not at 100% but he's adjusting and isn't freaking out.

BTW- He's currently on Purina One. I bought a 15 lb bag, I want to let him get settled before I even begin to introduce any form of diet change.

I'll post pictures once everyone gets a little more settled.

Taryn

 

[Willowy]

Awww, he's so cute! And it sounds like he and Nuts will work out fine. If they're doing that well so soon, they should be friends before too long.

I never recommend leaving any dog alone with a cat. . .you never know what could happen (to the cat OR to the dog), especially a new dog.

Which formula of Purina ONE is he on? If he's doing well, on it, it might be a good idea to stick with a food that has the same protein source.

 

[nerdrock]

He looks a lot like a JRT/Corgi mix I had as a foster. I'm going to post more on your other thread but wanted to comment on this one regarding food.

The most important thing is that as many of the main ingredients as possible are meat products or animal based protein. Contrary to popular belief, dogs cannot process plant based proteins properly so those ingredients should be towards the bottom of the list.

We feed our dogs raw now, but when they were on kibble they were fed Orijen, Fromm, GO!, and Wellness Core without any problems. Acana gave them bad gas, Taste of the Wild was ok but gave them big poops and they were always a bit gassy. We prefer grain free foods, but not every dog does well on them - some are too rich for some dogs, but it also varies by brand.

In regards to the comment about grain free foods not being suitable for growing puppies - which yours is not - it's also somewhat of a myth. We do not, and have never, fed our puppies puppy food. We have always started them right on adult food or grain free "all life stages" food and everyone has been fine - 1 collie/shep mix, 1 bouvier, 2 dachshunds and countless fosters.

There is a lot more information online about dog food than cat food, however you have to take everything with a grain of salt because a lot of the older studies were not even done one dogs. As an example, the study that said diets high in protein caused kidney damage was actually done on rats - a relatively new study was done on dogs and found that diets high in protein were actually healthier for dogs and those high in animal based proteins were even better. A good site for rating dog food is www.dogfoodanalysis.com. For the most part, I agree with most of their ratings.

If you find that he's having loose stool or is constipated, you can give him pure pumpkin (canned or fresh). It works both ways, most dogs will eat it as well.