Does this recipe look reasonable?

[coatfetish]

I am strongly considering making my own raw food, and I was wondering how healthy/complete this vid is? I'm trying to feed a cat with chronic rodent ulcer a low allergen food to see if it's diet related. I have two cats, and right now they are on Hill's z/d dry, but both cats are having serious diarrhea on it (it's only been 3 weeks, so they may not have adjusted yet). Anyhow, I'd like to get them off kibble and they won't touch the canned Hill's - they hate pate style food.

 My emergency vet is all for raw, my regular vets are all against it, so I'm rather confused. My regular vets say it's impossible for an individual like me (compared to a corporation) to get a proper balanced diet in a homemade meat mixture, but I think otherwise. Finding the right balance and combination of additives it what worries me - I need to learn so much! Not knowing any better I once started my cats on a raw diet consisting of ground organic beef/bison muscle and organ meat with shaved bone. It's a mix available at a butcher's here - but I didn't add any supplements since my emergency vet said it wasn't required. They loved it. I stopped when my regular vet had a fit.

 There is a lady down the road that raises meat rabbits so I'd have a rabbit source, many of my friends hunt venison & would share for some $$, lol, now if I could only find duck. I'm trying to avoid beef, chicken, turkey, and fish until I see if there is possibly a food related allergy.

 Am I on the right track, or am I way off base? Would I be better off buying something like Evo 95% if I can find it?

 Thanks!

PS - I don't have a meat grinder yet, so if I do this I would be adding the human grade bone meal...

 

[mschauer]

Yup, that is a perfectly good recipe. Some would say that some of the ingredients aren't really necessary but they certainly won't hurt and may be helpful.

If your  vet actually used the word "impossible" when regards to your ability to make a balanced diet for your cats then he was just being flat absurd. How is it that no one has a problem with the idea that we can all produce a balanced diet for ourselves but some many feel that it isn't possible to do for cats????

Whole bone contains many trace nutrients that are destroyed during the production of bone meal but many have used bone meal long term with great success.

Please let us know if you have more questions. 

 

[coatfetish]

Thank you for replying! Yes, one of my vets actually said that. My vets are a husband & wife team, and sometimes they seem poles apart. I didn't get to ask the husband about it - he's usually very open to trying "non conventional" things. The wife told me straight up she's a traditionalist and doesn't take much stock in homeopathic/holistic/natural remedies. Oddly, when I mentioned raw food to their substitute/stand-in vet they use when away, she was very anti-raw too. The only vet that was gung-ho for it was the emergency vet (at a different hospital).

The butcher that makes the organic ground beef/bison mix separates the bone and shaves it into a powder, then adds it back into the meat mix. I wonder if it's possible to do that at home? I hear the pro grinders are very powerful (I forgot what brand my emergency vet said she uses, but I have saved her emails). If I were able to grind the bone separately, then perhaps I could make it finer than the meat/organs & add it in. As it is now, I have several 1/2 cup containers of the beef/bison mix still in my freezer, but I've been reading where beef is considered by many to be one of the main allergens for cats? Granted, the butcher makes the blend for dogs, but my emergency vet feeds it to her cat as well. (she and her husband breed Briards). The butcher also does the same mix using chicken and chicken necks. Chicken or beef/bison, the cost is only 59 cents a pound! I'm just a poor little Walmart associate who rarely gets a 40 hour week, the cost of the Hill's is killing me! lol I grow my own organic veggies, I'd much prefer to make my own cat food as well so I can have a measure of control over the quality.

 I have to add - and it may mean nothing and just be coincidence - but while the cats were eating the raw food, their coats became very shiny and their energy level went sky high - like two year old cats! (they are nine) Now that they've been back on dry kibble for a few months their coat doesn't look as good, and they are nearly back to their old lay-about ways. When I first tried the raw beef/bison diet, I didn't know any better and I didn't transition them - but they took to it right away. I added enough water at feeding time to create a broth and I think that was the hook. I'm hoping I will be as lucky when I start to transition them into a new improved raw diet! lol

 thanks again for answering my initial question, mschauer!

 ~ Cindy ~

 

[mschauer]

The butcher that makes the organic ground beef/bison mix separates the bone and shaves it into a powder, then adds it back into the meat mix.

That's terrific! If I had access to that mix I would give it a try! Shaved bone should be pretty darn close to whole bone without the puncture risks of ground or gnawed bone.

I wonder if it's possible to do that at home? I hear the pro grinders are very powerful (I forgot what brand my emergency vet said she uses, but I have saved her emails). If I were able to grind the bone separately, then perhaps I could make it finer than the meat/organs & add it in.

Your typical home grinder isn't going to shave bone into powder. One popular model is this:

http://www.onestopjerkyshop.com/tasin-ts-108-electric-meat-grinder-1/

I have one and It doesn't come close to turning bone into powder. I haven't tried grinding the bones separately. 

As it is now, I have several 1/2 cup containers of the beef/bison mix still in my freezer, but I've been reading where beef is considered by many to be one of the main allergens for cats?

Ask 20 different people what the top allergens are for a cat and you'll get 20 different answers. Frankly I wouldn't start with any assumptions or concerns about what proteins your kitties might be allergic to. If there is strong evidence of an allergy to a particular protein, maybe try feeding only a tiny amount of that protein and see what the result is. But I can't tell you how many times people report that their cat was "allergic" to a certain protein while fed a processed food but were able to eat the protein raw with no problem. I strongly suspect there was no allergy to that protein to begin with. 

 Granted, the butcher makes the blend for dogs, but my emergency vet feeds it to her cat as well. (she and her husband breed Briards). The butcher also does the same mix using chicken and chicken necks. Chicken or beef/bison, the cost is only 59 cents a pound! 

The biggest problem with getting that kind of a mix is do you really know what is it? Does it contain organs? If so, which ones and how much of each? Do you know what the bone to meat ratio is? Too high a bone content can cause constipation. If your e-vet uses it good results then maybe it is fine but 

  I'm a stickler for the details but I certainly can't say that I know there is anything wrong with using the mixes from that butcher. On the surface at least, with the shaved bone, it looks pretty good as something to use with the recipe in the video you posted. 

 I have to add - and it may mean nothing and just be coincidence - but while the cats were eating the raw food, their coats became very shiny and their energy level went sky high - like two year old cats! (they are nine) Now that they've been back on dry kibble for a few months their coat doesn't look as good, and they are nearly back to their old lay-about ways. 

No, it isn't a coincidence. More energy is the most commonly reported change in cats when switched to a raw diet.

 

[coatfetish]

The bison/beef mix does contain organs, but good point - I don't know the muscle meat/organ meat (or content) and bone ratio.

This is the grinder I'm considering...many of the reviewers are using it to grind raw pet food and they are saying it eats up bone with great ease. Sorry for the big pic, I'm having trouble with links since going to google chrome 

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[mschauer]

The Tasin handles grinding bones well also. But it doesn't turn bone into powder. Do the reviewers of the STX say it does?

You might want to take a look at this for an alternative, but similar, recipe:

http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

 

[coatfetish]

Oh no, they don't say it powders the bone, I was wondering if it's possible to get a very fine grind of the bone. I really like how the butcher is able to do that.

 I'm off to read the alternate recipe now!

 

[carmina piranha]

We use the Tasin 108 grinder, and the bones are tiny.  I pinched through a container of our mix (FOR YOU!

You are welcome 

) and all I felt were a few bones that were "coarse-ground-pepper" size.  There is shredded cartilage that looks like bone, but it's soft.

The Tasin is cheaper and also has a 1-year warranty (done through the Jerky Shop, which makes things easier if you have to use it) but if people are using the other one for grinding bones, it probably will do well for you.

If I had a butcher selling the mix for that price, I wouldn't have bought a grinder!  But, it is really good to know what ratios of bone/liver/secreting organ he's using, or being able to change things depending on how your cats are doing. 

 

[coatfetish]

Carmina Piranha, thanks for going the extra mile! lol  

 Nothing's too good for the kitties, eh?  It's good to know such details, I've been concerned about the blockages and partial blockages due to bone that I've been reading about. I'm also going to talk with the butcher and see if he has a set ratio he uses, or if it's "mix du jour". Obviously it would be easier on me to use that as a base, rather than grind my own. I forgot to mention that they raise the beef/bison themselves (I don't think they do the chicken), the farm is literally across the street. All they do is walk the animals across the street, butcher them, and freeze it right away. I wonder if bison meat spoils fast, because they don't offer it in the meat cases, they said all the bison cuts are frozen. I will say last time I was there I bought myself two beef roasts and a pork shoulder and they were yummy! lol

 My emergency vet said when feeding raw I should keep an eye on the cat's stools, and if they are whitish (too much bone) add more meat, and if they are too soft, there isn't enough bone. She said that's good enough, no need to over-complicate it. However, she also assured me more than once (because I found it hard to believe) that I didn't need to add anything to the butcher's mix. No taurine, no probiotics, nothing - it was as complete as it needed to be for the cats as is. I added the water to make a broth because they liked it better - the mix is thick and paste-like - and she said that's ok, but again, not required. There would be enough water in the mix naturally. I don't want to sound like she said the beef/bison and chicken mix would suffice, she did say I should expand the menu and get other proteins, too. Like duck, rabbit and kangaroo. Don't ask me where to get kangaroo meat...

So I come here to get more opinions!  

 

[carolina]

However, she also assured me more than once (because I found it hard to believe) that I didn't need to add anything to the butcher's mix. No taurine, no probiotics, nothing - it was as complete as it needed to be for the cats as is. I added the water to make a broth because they liked it better - the mix is thick and paste-like - and she said that's ok, but again, not required. There would be enough water in the mix naturally. I don't want to sound like she said the beef/bison and chicken mix would suffice, she did say I should expand the menu and get other proteins, too. Like duck, rabbit and kangaroo. Don't ask me where to get kangaroo meat...
So I come here to get more opinions!  

That is true, you do not need to add any supplements IF the meat is CUT - if you are grinding the meat, however, which is what you are intending to do..... then you are looking into supplementing with at least Taurine.
If you are feeding Frankerprey - cuts of meat/bone/organs, then no need to supplement...... aside from a sardine or so once a week for some Omega3.... and following the correct muscle/bone/organs ratios, of course.... You can do just fine :nod:

Funny thing about Allergies: My IBD Cat Bugsy was never able to handle chicken - always gave him explosive diarrhea - but since I started him on raw, he has been just fine on it..... Here is the thing though: He appears to be fine on vegetarian fed/pasture raised chicken..... otherwise he can have problems. So I just make sure to serve him that.

My kitties started on ground raw/commercial, but I am working now on transitioning them to frankerprey - my meats and organs are arriving Wednesday - VERY exciting
As for your vet, that is normal.... unfortunately.... I do have a vet who is totally pro raw, which is the best vet, and another who is ok with it, as long as I feed commercial/supplemented...... I listen, but in the end the choice is still mine. No diet, including all the prescriptions Bugsy has been on, have done what raw has done for him...... so on that matter..... we know better :lol3: I am sure Bugsy does :bigthumb:
Have you seen this thread? http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread
There is a lot of information there..... Lots of great reading!!

 

[ldg]

I've been concerned about the blockages and partial blockages due to bone that I've been reading about.

If you're referring to Carolina's Lucky, Lauren's Walden, or my Spooky, none of them were actually blocked or even partially blocked:

- Lucky has been eating kibble her entire life, and her problem was an inability to digest the bone and resulting nausea from acid overproduction;
- Walden and Spooky were constipated. Lauren and I were feeding Nature's Variety frozen raw. It has 15% bone, which is more than the 8-10% cats should have in the meat/bone/organ mix. They were constipated from too much bone (too much calcium). I've been adding fresh meat to "thin out" the amount of bone they're getting, and that's working (just as your e-vet recommended!).

In each case, the ground bone was small enough to pass undigested without problem.

 

[coatfetish]

Ahhh...thanks! My misunderstanding 

 

[ldg]

Well, it is a little scary when you're new to raw, a cat stops eating,so you go to the vet to check for a blockage or something, and the vet says everything looks fine on the x-ray, but there's a lot of bone in their poop and colon. :lol3: It doesn't really matter that the vet says "it's fine, they'll pass it without any problem." You leave with instructions to bump up the amount of fresh meat they're eating... but.... :lol3:

 

[carmina piranha]

That's so cool that the meat is so local!  I wonder if they use beef and bison bones in that mix; those bones are big and tough (although maybe there are small bones they use), or whether they use chicken bones for that too.  If a small grinder can handle chicken bones, I suppose a huge grinder could handle beef bones.

We were making our recipe with chicken thighs only, (plus organs), which actually made the recipe about 30% bone.  We're now reducing the bones--"thinning out" the mix by adding boneless meat--but luckily the cats have had no constipation issues or bone digestion problems.  It was recommended that we add enough boneless meat to see the stools get too soft, then get a little more bone into the mix until they're normal again.  I thought that was a great idea, to ensure that everything stays nice and easy, rather than a little difficult for the kitties.

 

[coatfetish]

I think the idea of going for slightly too-soft stools, then gently correcting the mix is a great idea too. Better to err on the side of comfort for the kitties!

I'm sure they are using the bison/beef bone in the mix and not incorporating chicken bones - the chicken is a totally separate mix. As a matter of fact they sell the bison skulls and skins in the shop along with dream catchers, etc.

 Across the street where the farm and fields are they have rows and rows (about 50 feet) of home built wooden tables. Stacked in piles on them are bones, bleached from the sun. A huge pile of shoulder blades, a couple of piles of cow/bull skulls - some of them long horns - a couple of piles of hip girdles. It was so startling to see! The first time I went there I drove past them on the way to the shop & didn't see them. As I was leaving they were right across the street and I stopped dead in the road I was so shocked! Good thing this is a mountain community and there is very little traffic at the end of that road except to go to the meat market - next time I go I may take a pic, lol 

  If I get a chance I'll take a pic of the mix & show you what it looks like...

 

[carmina piranha]

Before you posted this last post, I was thinking about the skulls and actually picturing cats gnawing on a cow skull--but I want it to be a bleached skull, not a yucky one, which means no meat, therefore no gnawing, so nevermind on my bizarre carnivore-cat fantasy photo shoot!

Their dreamcatchers must be really nice, probably incorporating some buffalo hair or hide.  What state, or general area, do you live in?  I'm picturing this in the Dakotas, but maybe they're raising these bison in  Appalachia or California.  I'd love to see some pictures of the mix, or the bone-tables, whenever you have a chance.  Bones and skeletons are neat--and traffic-stopping!

 

[coatfetish]

I live in the western part of Virginia - the butcher shop is about a 90 mile round trip for me, and it's in Rich Creek, Va. (is case you're into Googling that kind of thing!). There are several bison farms around here - 3 within a 30 minute drive. I'll take pics of the "bone tables' next time I go get meat - maybe next week!

 

[carmina piranha]

I can't wait to see some photos.  And now I am imaging the tables of bones with gently rolling hills and mountains behind them, instead of the badlands!

 

[coatfetish]

lol - it's more like tables of bones with a dilapidated barn and THEN rolling hills...  ; )

 I can't go this weekend coming up because I have to pick up an aquarium I bought, but I will be going mid-month. I promise I'll bore you with a few pics!