Did we rush the introduction?

[catty87]

Hello All, 

I am new to the forums. Sorry for the long post in advance. My girlfriend and I have a 5 month Exotic Shorthair (Male, Neutered, In-Door Only, the Resident Cat). We've had him for 2.5 months, all good, no issues. He is very playful and kind to us. We thought it would be a good idea to bring in a second kitten to keep our Resident Cat company while we are away for work (we felt he got bored alone and this breed really loves companionship), but also because we wanted one too.

The new kitten is also an Exotic Shorthair, 3 weeks younger than our Resident Cat but female (she is fixed). The Resident Cat was neutered on September 9th 2015. He has been given the all clear by the vets. The new kitten was fixed on 7th September 2015, also given the all clear by the vets. 

We brought in the new kitten to our home on 19th September. Below is what we did to introduce them in which I feel we might have rushed:

19th September 2015
- As soon as we arrived with the new kitten we put her in the bathroom with her toys, food, water, own cat litter and bed. 

- Resident Cat sniffed under the door, no hissing. 
- We did a lot of scent swapping by using the cloth that was in the new kitten's basket. We passed this over to our Resident Cat (no hissing) and then back to the new kitten (no hissing). 
- We then placed some catnip and treats by the door and opened a little gap so they can see each other. The new kitten was fine but the Resident Cat hissed. This was as expected. 
- During the evening feed we placed both their foods by the door with a little gap. The new kitten ate without any issues but the Resident Cat didn't, He was more interested in her. 
- The final thing we did that evening is placed the new kitten in the basket (made sure it was safely locked) and then placed it in the living room. The Resident Cat was very curious, hissing and swatting on some occasions. But then he laid down in front of the basket and rolled on his side, exposing his belly to her. We thought this was good but we called it a night, She slept in her own room, she meowed a lot but finally fell asleep. 

20th September 2015
- Morning feed through the door with gap, Resident Cat not eating and hissing, new kitten ate fine. 
- More scent swapping and playing with them individually. 
- We then proceeded with some playtime with both of them together with us on guard. There was some hissing and swatting from the Resident Cat. The Resident Cat is not bothered by her when she is still, but when she moves he then has to follow her.
- We put a box in the middle and the Resident Cat played a little, even exposing his belly to her (they were quite close to each other). 
- At the end of the play they both fell asleep on the couch but not together but close enough. 
- We thought we made progress until she woke up and roamed around, he got curious, hissing and swatting then to the point they both had arched backs to each other. This was the end of the play and we separated them. 

21st September 2015
We think now is the time to take it slow. Keep them separated but have a little gap at the door and do more scent swapping. It's a weird one because at some points its fine and then it can suddenly turn ugly or vice versa. For example, this morning there was gap at the door. The new kitten was eating and Resident Cat was trying to stick his paw through with a little hiss. We didn't realise at that point the door had opened and he came through ignoring her to the bedroom where we were. She wasn't bothered as well. 

What can we do to make the situation better? I am guessing it's a time thing? They are both eating, drinking, playing, pooping well. My girlfriend and I have the next 10 days off work for this occasion. There hasn't been any aggressive fighting or biting.   

Many thanks!!

E

 

[catty87]

Just to add an update. We've limited their activity to having a gap at the door. Things are looking a little better. They've touched faces, there were no hissing on either side. 

 

[dlkhain]

Hi there,

I don't have much experience to share, since we're about to go through the same thing bringing in a new kitten.

But, from what I've been reading while researching, for example:

http://www.catchat.org/hierarchies.html

It does sound like you may have jumped the gun a bit.

From what I understand, it can take a few days before the new kitten is getting used to the confinement room (that site says 2-7 days).

Having had physical contact on the first day could have been a bit early.

Go back to isoloating the kitten for a couple of days, no visual contacts but plenty of cloth/scent swapping. Once they both look settled enough, try the gap in the door again.

I'm sure you've already read some material, but I found that site I linked to quite good.

Oh and, congrats on taking the time off work to make sure the transition goes well. It sounds like it's working out ok, so maybe with a bit more patience and taking things slowly it will sort out the last issues.

(Like I said, this is all speculation based on the research I've  been doing myself, no first hand experience so I could be talking complete nonsense).

 

[Columbine]

The introduction was definitely way too fast. Such an easy mistake to make. With cats, territory is key, so introducing a new cat is best done very gradually to minimise stress and help prevent anyone feeling threatened. These articles are a great guide. Come back and ask as many questions as you like!

[article="32680"][/article][article="29726"][/article][article="29658"][/article][article="30274"][/article][article="30316"][/article]

 

[NewYork1303]

I would agree that that was very rushed. Go back and start again. We did this a few months ago with the kitten in a dog crate in the living room throughout the first part of the introductions. We still probably went too fast, but it worked itself out in the end. Here's a link to a photo thread of the timeline my cats followed. We had the older cat supervised around her for the first several weeks of this.
[thread="306236"]Gradual Introductions Work  [/thread]

 

[catty87]

Thanks for all your replies!! I thought I'd post an update.

Two days ago (the next day after my first post) it's been really good. I don't know what happened. We were going to take it very slow but when the Resident Cat slipped into her room there was no hissing or swatting from him. They've touched nose, played a lot together and sleep near each other without any issues. She even started to use his litter box and can pass each other in the house without any confrontation.

Later that day we installed a Feliway Diffuser in two of the rooms just to make sure it continues this way. We are still keeping an eye on things and for the past two nights we were not confining her to one room when she sleeps because she cries a lot when left alone knowing that we are home. Last night the new kitten even went into the Resident Cat's bed for a bit with no issues. The Resident Cat is called 'Toro' and the new kitten is called 'Babushka'.

My only concern is sometimes Toro would play a bit too rough, to the point she would hiss, scream because he bites her ear or neck (from what I can see it's not a fully blown bite). She would hit back sometimes and other times we would need to get involved. He basically tries to hump her even though he is neutered (she is also fixed), but I believe it's more of an alpha male/dominance thing for the reason he does that. She does have a say in all this, for example just now he tried to do the same thing and she hissed, he then backed off.

I feel he constantly wants to play with her as this is a new friend for him which he has accepted but she is very selective with the play (probably because she had all that play time where she came from because of her siblings, where else for Toro the last time he saw another kitten was 3.5 months ago). When she says 'no', he then yowls, probably because of annoyance she didn't play.

What I would like to know is how to stop aggressive play from Toro? When we go back to work we would like them to roam free together (which they do most of the time, we have let them to be alone a couple of times for a few hours with no issues so far). It's just that his type of 'play' is not her thing and when I bring a toy for them both to be involved, she would play, he plays a little but he is just fixated on her, he would just stare at her.

I sometimes see these 'fights' out to see if it really is a fight. Most of the time he is chasing her, with no aggression but when it does get a little ugly I would like her to fend for herself so she doesn't rely on us so when we are not there she would know what to do. And there have been occasions where she took care of the situation (where we were closely watching in case it got ugly). I am hoping over time he would relax and mellow out.

Kind regards,
E

 

[catty87]

Oh, and just to add we have pretty much stopped keeping them in separate rooms because it has worked itself out. It's just the whole alpha male/dominance/letting know who is boos is taking place that worries me.

Kind regards,

EK

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I'm glad they seem to be getting along better now.  With two kittens, it's certainly easier than with a kitten and a cat, or two cats. 

That being said, I'm not sure I would leave them alone unattended yet, until you've gone several days in a row without seeing hints of possible attacks.  Usually the way you can tell the difference between play fighting and real fighting is with real fighting, they will be hissing and growling.  With play fighting, they will just be rolling and tumbling around but now making any verbal sounds..., jumping on each other , etc.  But certainly there will be NO growling. 

One thing we found was a BAD idea when we were integrating, the safe room was actually the resident cats' normal playroom

.  This did not sit well with the resident cats.  AT ALL.  They would actually attack the door because they wanted in with all their stuff.  (we finally figured out the problem months down the road. )   And of course, if both of us were in there with the newbies, that wasn't good either.  So we learned one of us needed to be with the kittens, and one of us needed to be with the resident cats to try to keep a peaceful house.  FINALLY it all paid off.

 

[red top rescue]

You might try wearing Toro out before he plays with the girl, i.e. have him chase the red dot or leap into the air and get DaBird!  After 15 minutes or so of very active and tiring play then he should be calm enough for her.  When he flops down and starts to pant, you will know that's the right time to let them play together.

 

 

[catty87]

Thank you all. I thought I'd give an update, so far they are now:

- Able to use the litter box with no issues (at one point I saw them both in there). I have set out two litter boxes but they only use the one.

- Most of the day there is no chasing/fighting.

- Sleep very close together.

- Play together.

- Eat together (separate bowls but able to eat close).

- Touched nose on many occasions with no issues.

- Today I even saw Toro licking Babushka's head. He had pinned her down at first, which she then accepted and enjoyed the grooming session.

I have set out 3 bowls of dry food around the house, 3 bowls of water and I clean the litter box 2-3 times a day.

What baffles me is the odd chasing and rough play from Toro to the point where she would start making noises which sound like discomfort. I am not sure if that's just her being in pain, she's just whines easily or her being annoyed at being dominated by Toro. I have not seen any blood, bits of fur on the floor or scratches. It's just that seeing her being chased makes me concern for her. I just can't tell how much of it is play and actual fighting because when I pick her up she doesn't seem scared and is happy to go back to the same room where Toro is. She doesn't seem to be really scared by all this chasing and is happily to be around him.

To put a spanner in the works, yesterday it looked like she started to chase him, which is a first. He seemed to like it, he didn't act aggressive towards that behavior, he seemed very bouncy that this had happened.

I know it's only been a week and there has been a lot of progress even with the minimal introduction period, given our situation shall I not stop these chases when there is a little rough play? I know we agreed in earlier posts that I should stop these chases (and they do stop when I clap my hands)? It's just that I read somewhere that the Resident Cat is letting the newcomer know who's boss/newcomer had done something wrong in the household which humans can't see/newcomer is being taught manners and that they are working things out. Then I read somewhere that the whole 'working things out' between cats is a myth, which confuses me!! I would of course stop anything that looked very serious.

I am hoping when Babushka grows up she can fend for herself because she is smaller than him (2 weeks between them). I have seen instances where she hissed at Toro just before he was going to start another chase which stopped him at his tracks. 

Kind regards,

E

 

[red top rescue]

Wonderful that she started chasing him now, and that she isn't afraid even after he has made her squeal!  They are both learning and is sounds like it is going well.  Thanks for the update!

 

[catspaw66]

When cats play, they play rough at times. Sugar and Spice sometimes get really wild in their play, it would be called felony aggravated assault in humans. I call it full-contact tag.

 

[catty87]

Thank you for the reply and I appreciate the advice. Things are better today, Babushka was chasing Toro a lot and vice versa and there was no rough play fighting until a moment ago. Babushka hissed and growled from a play which she started (but couldn't end).

They even started share a bowl (not my choice, just kind of happened). Slept on our bed together and continuous friendly greeting.

I'm thinking maybe I should trim (not declaw) Toro's claws? When Babushka first came her claws were too sharp and we trimmed it at the vets. Toro's isn't as sharp as Babushka's when she first came but it is sharper than her's as of now (after the trim). It's just that Toro sometimes takes it one step further to assert his dominance. Do you think that will ever stop and clapping at the point of hissing and growling is the best thing to do?


Kind regards,
E

 

[catty87]

I should also probably say that we were given Toro early. He was 9 weeks old and Exotic Shorthairs are usually ready to leave around 12 weeks. Maybe I am thinking too much into this, but can his aggressive rough play sometimes be interpreted from the fact that he wasn't fully weaned? He had siblings from where we got him and I can see they were playing but maybe not enough time was left for him to understand when he is going too far?

When we first got him we played using our hands (classic mistake), we've stopped this for a while now. His not aggressive towards humans, he doesn't randomly attack legs or chase people.

I am just not use to this rough play from Toro on another kitten. Babushka might initiate it sometimes but Toro on some occasions takes it one step too far to the point Babushka starts squeaking hard. However hard it has gotten she always seems to come back to him, she's never been afraid of him after a roughing up.

I know I sound like a broken record but I would like to know exactly what to do when Babushka starts screaming. Clap my hands? Put Toro in another room? Leave it be since there is no scratches or blood drawn and in time it will be better since it's only been a week.


Kind regards,
E

 

[catspaw66]

In my opinion, as long as Toro is not hurting Babushka (love the name, BTW) let them play. When S&S were smaller, Sheba used to chase them and sometimes make them squeal. But now, they chase her and sometimes make her squeal.

When they start getting too rough, I loudly say "Hey" and they usually stop. If not, I rattle my bedside medicine bottle. That usually distracts the aggresson enough, the victim can get away. And usually turn around and become the aggressor themself.

Keep an eye on them still, and as long as there is no blood, fur or scratches let them play. Toro is asserting his dominance through playing a little rough. Trim their claws (thank you for not even considering declawing) leave some toys around - furry mice, kickeroos, balls of paper and such. Mine like playing with empty aluminum cans, empty 20 oz. bottles and an empty 1 gallon water jug. Bunch of wackos, even for cats.

 

[catty87]

Thank you for the advice, really appreciate it. I will take what you have suggested on-board. Everything is perfect and they do really like each other. Toro even allowed Babuska to play with his favourite toy, sleep in his bed and he grooms her a lot. As Babushka gets older I am hoping her squealing stops. The breeder told us that her siblings used to play rough with her a lot as well and she squealed so her mother can hear and separate them as Babushka has hit her fright level while playing. Since her mother is no longer around, she looks to us .   

I want to ask one last question. Wednesday will be the first day my girlfriend and I will be back at work. This means no one is around for the next 9-10 hours to help Babushka when she needs help. Do we keep them in separate rooms while we are at work until she grows a little more? I should probably say Toro hates closed doors and she is no fan of being alone. I am just worried about them getting anxious while they are separated. Or, shall we just leave it as it is and hopefully everything will be fine. We have left them unattended before a couple of times for 2-3 hours and there were no issues. Also, as mentioned before there has been no fur flying, blood or scratches in any of the plays. 

Kind regards,

E

 

[catspaw66]

In my opinion, separating them while you are at work would cause more bad than good. If you are anxious about their behavior when alone, get a nanny cam and see what they are up to while on their own.

If you have left them alone before, they should be good. After all, they will probably sleep most of the time.

When I go away to my Sister's house at Christmas for 48 hours or so, I get back and get "Oh, were you gone? What do you smell like? What did you bring me? FEED ME"

I make sure before I go that all litter boxes are clean, there is plenty of water, plenty of food, and no breakable valuables out. S&S can trash a room faster than an EF5 tornado.

 

[catty87]

image.jpeg

• catty87
• Sep 28, 2015

image.jpeg

• catty87
• Sep 28, 2015

I agree, I will take this on-board and really appreciate your advice. I have uploaded some pictures of our kittens .


E

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

OMG, look at those two?  Are they two cuties or what

Yes, I think your integration is going just fine