Declawing...

[tiffanyjbt]

Originally Posted by Jen

what about the fact that it greatly reduces their risk of getting cancer when they are older? And females from getting cancer and Pyometra? Also what about the fact that intact cats spread FeLV and FIV. There are a LOT of health benefits to spaying and neutering too, where there are very very rarely health reasons for declawing.

Hi Jen,

I'm not comparing declawing to altering. I just said I think they are BOTH cruel. I do believe that declawing is MUCH worse then altering though. And again, I encourage people to alter their cats (and to NOT declaw them). Most of us really can't handle the responsibility of keeping an altered cat and I hate seeing cats being thrown out because they spray or howl or something worse happening because they roam.

I'm also aware of the health benefits of altering cats. I never denied that there were benefits. But the fact that there are so many diseased cats out there is at least partly our fault. Saying that intact cats spread disease is a little misleading, I think. I might use the word feral instead, as those that are caught and altered and then released will often still roam and fight and spread disease. I know this was not your intent, but it almost sounds like you are demonizing unaltered cats. This is what I disagree with and why I say most of the problems are our fault. Its not the cats fault.

As for the health benefits, I don't think there are a lot, as you put it. More benefits in female cats, yes, but for male cats its almost negligible. The risk of testicular ailments in male cats doesn't decrease by that much when comparing neutered males to intact males. In fact, in the several sites that I've searched on the pro's and con's of neutering, not one said anything about a reduced risk of cancer in male cats.

While they do mention it in females, I'd like to see a legitimate study (unbiased) that shows the actual percentage of altered vs. whole cats that go on to have cancer. That kind of information is hard to come by. I think this is because people who don't alter their cats are maybe not as likely to take them to the vet as often either and no one wants to give a person any more reason to hesitate on having this procedure done on their cats. I don't totally blame them, because the second someone knowledgeable and who has done the necessary research (i.e. not me

) says the health benefits are negligible then some people will start to think its OK not to alter their cats. If anyone has any information on this, I would very much like to know about it.

K, thats my take. Thanks for allowing me to express my opinions and I hope no one is offended by what I have said. (I tried very hard to not be unintentionally offensive

)

Tiffany

 

[tiffanyjbt]

Originally Posted by celestialrags

http://community-2.webtv.net/zuzu22/STOPDECLAWCOM/
Please look at the pictures, read the desciption, and read just a couple of the stories in there. Then if you can honestly say after that it isn't cruel, then o.k.

Thank you for posting this. I forced myself to look at the pictures. It made me cry, but its something I think anyone who is considering declawing or has friends/family that are considering it should see. This breaks my heart...

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

Well, of course this is all just my opinion... But... The overpopulation problem is caused by us. By people who want a kitten but don't want a cat. By people who wan't to make a buck off breeding their 'moggies' (BYBs). By people who think its cool to let their cats breed but don't consider the responsibility attached to birthing kittens and finding responsible owners for them. By people who throw cats away when they don't conform to their preconceived notions of cat behaivor. Etc... Other dangers include reckless driving, using poisonous chemicals and leaving them accessible, allowing pet dogs and cats to roam freely and pose a physical threat and introduce the threat of disease, not to mention the afore mentioned 'throw aways' that become diseased ferals. From my understanding, domestic cats didn't even exist in the United States until WE brought them here.

I'm guilty of a few of these things. I'll admit that. But I try to be cognizant of it and minimize the problem as much as possible. I got my Duke from a BYB. But rather than supporting her and encouraging her to do it again, I reported her to animal control. My baby was in bad shape when I first got him and I had to educate myself FAST about this kind of thing. I have quite a few neighbors who allow their cats to roam the neigborhood and they have not been altered. Two of these neighbors I've convinced to get the procedure done on their pets. I saw a cat outside the other night. I live in the midwest and it was about 30 degrees outside. I stayed out in the cold for 45 minutes trying to coax the cat into my garage. Once there, she curled up right away and went to sleep. The next morning I found her owner. They said it scratched their funiture so they didn't want it anymore. It p*sses me off that people are so careless and irresponsible

! I don't belong to any rescue group, and yet I've "fostered" two cats since this summer. One was even pregnant, but we had it terminated. I was devastated, but she was throw away herself. Who would take her AND her babies? The vet had a waiting list for accepting new litters!!!

OK, I'm sorry about that. I love animals, and I get a little heated thinking about this stuff. Sorry again...

Tiffany

I understand the above, but I still don't see the answer to why you think altering an animal is cruel. I must be having a senior's day.

 

[tiffanyjbt]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I understand the above, but I still don't see the answer to why you think altering an animal is cruel. I must be having a senior's day.

Sorry, all that talk and no substance! The short answer? I think its cruel because its unnatural...

Tiffany (my middle name should be 'Loquacious')

 

[jen]

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

Hi Jen,

I'm not comparing declawing to altering. I just said I think they are BOTH cruel. I do believe that declawing is MUCH worse then altering though. And again, I encourage people to alter their cats (and to NOT declaw them). Most of us really can't handle the responsibility of keeping an altered cat and I hate seeing cats being thrown out because they spray or howl or something worse happening because they roam.

I'm also aware of the health benefits of altering cats. I never denied that there were benefits. But the fact that there are so many diseased cats out there is at least partly our fault. Saying that intact cats spread disease is a little misleading, I think. I might use the word feral instead, as those that are caught and altered and then released will often still roam and fight and spread disease. I know this was not your intent, but it almost sounds like you are demonizing unaltered cats. This is what I disagree with and why I say most of the problems are our fault. Its not the cats fault.

As for the health benefits, I don't think there are a lot, as you put it. More benefits in female cats, yes, but for male cats its almost negligible. The risk of testicular ailments in male cats doesn't decrease by that much when comparing neutered males to intact males. In fact, in the several sites that I've searched on the pro's and con's of neutering, not one said anything about a reduced risk of cancer in male cats.

While they do mention it in females, I'd like to see a legitimate study (unbiased) that shows the actual percentage of altered vs. whole cats that go on to have cancer. That kind of information is hard to come by. I think this is because people who don't alter their cats are maybe not as likely to take them to the vet as often either and no one wants to give a person any more reason to hesitate on having this procedure done on their cats. I don't totally blame them, because the second someone knowledgeable and who has done the necessary research (i.e. not me

) says the health benefits are negligible then some people will start to think its OK not to alter their cats. If anyone has any information on this, I would very much like to know about it.

K, thats my take. Thanks for allowing me to express my opinions and I hope no one is offended by what I have said. (I tried very hard to not be unintentionally offensive

)

Tiffany

I totally understand most of what you are saying. I agree, and I am glad we can have nice conversations about this

But I guess I don't see how spaying and neutering can possibly be considered cruel at all? I am just not seeing it that way. Which is fine, I am happy you are still doing it and getting others to. But I am just not understanding that

I accept the fact that is what you think and it's fine, i don't think either one of us is going to convince otherwise hehe and we don't have to either

 

[mzjazz2u]

Originally Posted by pinkpanther66

There is alot of people who think its cruel but i have had declawed cats and they are no different,other than they dont ruin your property. All have been just as happy as the ones with claws. My opinion is its not cruel but what is cruel is people that have cats that dont protect them from the outdoors and let them roasm free only to become hit by cars. That is cruel. Besides this is the USA and its legal here so what is not leagal doesnt really matter.

I respectfully differ. I have adopted cats that had previously been declawed and they ARE different then other cats. And I've heard these stories from many people who have had the same experiences. I've got one cat that was going to be put down because she was a biter. This is their new way of defense. And even indoor kitties still need a means of defense. Think of the child that gets too rough with a cat or who is yanking the cats tail. Of course you don't want the child to get scratched either. But it is much worse for the child to be bitten. Cats who have been declawed are more likely (not always but more likely) to be biters. They are more likely to have litter box issues. Again... not always but much more likely. More likely to be less affectionate and more likely to have balance problems. These are well known problems of declawed cats. My cat, Peaches, who was front paw declawed before I adopted her, has trouble jumping up on the cat tree or jumping up on anything. Sometimes she loses her balance and falls down to the floor. One of my other cats is a male who had all 4 paws declawed by his previous owner. He never even attempted to jump on the cat tree or window perch. He just doesn't have the balance at all. My thrid cat is not declawed at all and has none of these problems. And he doesn't scratch at furniture either. He has the cat tree and another scratching post and he leaves the furniture alone.

Declawing is nothing less then mutilation. If we did this to humans, there would be a huge deal made of it. In my opinion and especially after seeing these pictures, declawing is just as much mutilation as female circumcision is in some Asian or MIddle Eastern countries. I'm sure people could justify that as well by saying it decreases the female desire for sex so there will be less sexually transmitted disease, less out of wedlock and teen pregnancy etc. Just because declawing isn't illegal in the USA doesn't mean it is right. We are definately not the moral authority in the world. Take a look at these pictures taken at different stages of declawing surgery. http://community-2.webtv.net/stopdeclaw/declawpics/

 

[tiffanyjbt]

Originally Posted by mzjazz2u

Just because declawing isn't illegal in the USA doesn't mean it is right. We are definately not the moral authority in the world.

Thank you for saying this. I started to type something along the same line as this, but I felt I had already said too much in this particular thread. I agree with you 100%!

Tiffany

I'm sorry to hear about the troubles your kitties are having. Give them extra scritches behind the ears for me! :^)

 

[tiffanyjbt]

Originally Posted by Jen

I totally understand most of what you are saying. I agree, and I am glad we can have nice conversations about this

But I guess I don't see how spaying and neutering can possibly be considered cruel at all? I am just not seeing it that way. Which is fine, I am happy you are still doing it and getting others to. But I am just not understanding that

I accept the fact that is what you think and it's fine, i don't think either one of us is going to convince otherwise hehe and we don't have to either

Thank you for understanding, and I too understand that I have a minority opinion on this. I'm not trying to convince anyone to think like I do (how boring!) just wanted to share my point of view and I'm grateful that I can do that here.

Basically, like I responded to Yosemite, I feel its cruel because its unnatural. But I don't believe that cruelty is black and white. Some things are more cruel than others. For example, I feel it is more cruel to leave Duke intact and allow him to roam (with all the dangers that entails) than to just neuter him and eliminate that natural urge. To me, neutering was the lesser of two evils (not that its evil, just a figure of speech)

Thanks for listening/reading!

Tiffany

 

[celestialrags]

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

Thank you for posting this. I forced myself to look at the pictures. It made me cry, but its something I think anyone who is considering declawing or has friends/family that are considering it should see. This breaks my heart...

Thank-you for looking at it, I still cry every time I go to the site, and re-read the stories of people who "if they would have known then what they know now" I am not into making ANYONE feel bad for some thing they have already done, it can't be changed and they probley feel bad enough they unknowingly hurt their cat, but, I want people to see what it did do so they will never do it AGAIN. You can't take it back, so what's done is done. I wish I could Make every one (especially those who don't think declaws are cruel) look at it. I hope that the poster, pinkpanther66 will look at it too, I know that most people only see what they want and will look the other way, so they don't see the truth. But, fact of the matter is declaws are cruel, even if a cat is lucky enough not to have the problems many cats do have ei, litter issues, bitting, issues, balance issues, ect. It is still a very painful surgury and doesn't belong in the vet practise, there is NO need of it, or for it. I am going to be a little unoriginal here and say, if you are worried about your "property" being ruined, then you have NO bussiness having a cat.
I will say though, I don't see that altering is cruel, but, we don't always have to agree. I don't think it is cruel, at all, I think they are happier, and healthier, but, that's my oppinion, and it's not like I am argueing declaws, I will try to make the point VERY clear when it comes to that, LOL!
Did you read any of the stories? They have a vet tech discription, from when she /he gets to work, until you pick your cat up, I cry every time I read it. The vet tech talks about how the cat will cry out in pain while under, it must be so painful, I can't imagine doing it to my babies

pinkpanther66 PLEASE read the stories from the link I posted, if you don't feel declaws are cruel, then what will it hurt to check it out? Here is the link again, just incase you didn't see my last post.
http://community-2.webtv.net/zuzu22/STOPDECLAWCOM/

 

[malikitty]

Kirra is not declawed, she is pretty in green and red nail covers. My last two cats were NOT declawed. My cat back 6 years ago sadly was. I didnt know about nail covers than and didnt realise how bad declawing was, she tore my skin so bad i had (what i thought) was no choice. I regretted it after it was done. My baby was in pain for days and than she went from being a lovey dovey who wanted to be petted all the time to a cat that , while she loved me and followed me, would snap at me occasionally (after all i was the one who did that to her). I swore i would never declaw again, it was hard with the next to but i managed, with Kirra i am greatful for nail covers and promote them. My husband's aunt just got two kittens and a brand new leather couch, she was talking about declawing them and my mother in law told her about the covers i use on Kirra and had me email her info.