Concerns about the safety of using shellfish as nutrient sources

[Tuckamukk3]

Hi all. Lately I started making spreadsheets of my recipes to try and make sure they meet NRC recommendations. This is ongoing project, but I did discover they were definitely deficient in some nutrients and have been making up the gaps with supplements or whole foods when possible. I introduced oysters into the cats' diet primarily for zinc, but then I just read that they contain very high amounts of toxic heavy metals, like mercury, cadmium, fun stuff like that. I read mussels do too, which some people use for manganese I think. I loved the idea of being able to use a whole food instead of yet another supplement but now I fear that shellfish are too toxic to feed regularly.
Does anyone have any information or input/opinions on this issue?

 

[iPappy]

Hi! I have fed raw for a long, long time and have never fed oysters or shellfish for the reasons you mentioned. (I have fed fine ground sardines, though, but not for zinc.) Do you feed red meat/beef?
Zinc in a raw diet — The Little Carnivore
"
Zinc is found mainly in meat, organs, seafood, and fish. Whole grains, nuts, and legumes also contain zinc in less amount, while fruits and vegetables don’t have much zinc.
The richest food in zinc by far is oysters, containing more than 200 mg of zinc per 1000 kcal. It’s also found in organs like liver, heart, and kidney, at around 20 to 40 mg of zinc per 1000 kcal. Red meat and especially lean beef is also particularly rich in zinc, and will often be the main contributor of zinc in a raw diet.
It’s important to pay attention to the amount of fat in a cut of meat, while lean beef at around 5% of fat contains 42 mg for 1000 kcal; ground beef with 20% fat contains only 16 mg for 1000 kcal.
In poultry, hard-working muscles which are darker in color are also richer in zinc. For example, chicken and turkey breasts contain respectively 5.7 mg and 10 mg per 1000 kcal while chicken and turkey thighs contain 13 mg and 25 mg per 1000 kcal. "

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Thanks for the reply. I actually got the idea to feed oysters from that website, The Little Carnivore. Lots of information there.

The only beef I feed is heart and organs (liver, brain, sweetbreads, kidney). I'll admit I have been afraid to feed large amounts of beef because I read something years ago... I probably have it saved somewhere... that said in some study beef and shellfish were most likely to cause some kind of G.I. inflammation in cats. My cats seem to tolerate the parts I use but I'm kind of paranoid of using "too much" beef, triggering an intolerance and losing a valuable nutrient source. Maybe this is irrational, I don't know lol! But yes, I did read there that lean beef was a good source of zinc.

I'm curious, do you feed lean beef or use a supplement?

 

[iPappy]

Thanks for the reply. I actually got the idea to feed oysters from that website, The Little Carnivore. Lots of information there.

The only beef I feed is heart and organs (liver, brain, sweetbreads, kidney). I'll admit I have been afraid to feed large amounts of beef because I read something years ago... I probably have it saved somewhere... that said in some study beef and shellfish were most likely to cause some kind of G.I. inflammation in cats. My cats seem to tolerate the parts I use but I'm kind of paranoid of using "too much" beef, triggering an intolerance and losing a valuable nutrient source. Maybe this is irrational, I don't know lol! But yes, I did read there that lean beef was a good source of zinc.

I'm curious, do you feed lean beef or use a supplement?

Over the years, I've had a few cats that didn't handle beef very well. A few of mine will throw up if I feed an entire beef meal and nothing more, but the addition of beef with other proteins has never been much of a problem with them So I do feed quite a bit of beef, but (like everything) lean beef is climbing in price. Do your cats react negatively to the beef heart, or organs? Where do you source your food from, can you get a hold of some other sources of red meat (assuming you aren't already feeding them)?
I never fed eggs that much before, but have been feeding a lot more for the past almost year now. My Mom has chickens so I can get good quality eggs at a low price and they have some zinc in there, too.
(I have plenty of supplements I use/have used, but I try to use food first if possible and just use supplements to fill in the gaps. I don't use green lipped mussels for my cats, but my dog gets them as she has a Grade 1 luxating patella and I'd like to do my best to prevent any ACL/CCL tears.)

 

[furmonster mom]

I have also been feeding a raw diet for many years (since 2008), and have never fed any kind of shellfish.

I have always gone by the mantra of balance by rotation, as opposed to balance for every single meal.

I feed a rotation of chicken (including bone), pork, beef, and lamb for main meats. I use whole chicken fryers, which means the dark meat portions are included. And for the pork, I use the shoulder cut which is more “red” than other cuts, though there are certainly “white” sections. Beef and lamb are both very red meats.
I also include a variety of organ meats, which are very rich in many minerals.

We just got a new cat from a local savanna rescue. The lady said the cat was not doing well on the commercial food, so she was trying to transition him to the raw food she feeds. But he was apparently still throwing it up. She insisted that pork and beef were not good for savannas, but he has only thrown up once since we got him 5 weeks ago. Also, his face trimmed down, and his coat has become glossy. So, I guess I must be doing something right.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Over the years, I've had a few cats that didn't handle beef very well. A few of mine will throw up if I feed an entire beef meal and nothing more, but the addition of beef with other proteins has never been much of a problem with them So I do feed quite a bit of beef, but (like everything) lean beef is climbing in price. Do your cats react negatively to the beef heart, or organs? Where do you source your food from, can you get a hold of some other sources of red meat (assuming you aren't already feeding them)?
I never fed eggs that much before, but have been feeding a lot more for the past almost year now. My Mom has chickens so I can get good quality eggs at a low price and they have some zinc in there, too.
(I have plenty of supplements I use/have used, but I try to use food first if possible and just use supplements to fill in the gaps. I don't use green lipped mussels for my cats, but my dog gets them as she has a Grade 1 luxating patella and I'd like to do my best to prevent any ACL/CCL tears.)

My cats seem to handle the beef parts I use without any trouble. I source the heart and organs from Mexican grocery stores and meat markets. Those are my only sources for those things out here. I also feed turkey thighs, chicken thighs, and pork - usually shoulder, sometimes butt. I also just started using duck as a bone source for the pork - I have to ground it due to bone size but figure that's much better than calcium powders.
I feed 1/4's of chicken egg yolk to 2 out of 3 of my cats but one recently developed an intolerance to chicken egg. Eventually I may try quail egg with him.
I have quail available but I don't plan on using them often because they're expensive.

 

[iPappy]

I have also been feeding a raw diet for many years (since 2008), and have never fed any kind of shellfish.

I have always gone by the mantra of balance by rotation, as opposed to balance for every single meal.

I feed a rotation of chicken (including bone), pork, beef, and lamb for main meats. I use whole chicken fryers, which means the dark meat portions are included. And for the pork, I use the shoulder cut which is more “red” than other cuts, though there are certainly “white” sections. Beef and lamb are both very red meats.
I also include a variety of organ meats, which are very rich in many minerals.

We just got a new cat from a local savanna rescue. The lady said the cat was not doing well on the commercial food, so she was trying to transition him to the raw food she feeds. But he was apparently still throwing it up. She insisted that pork and beef were not good for savannas, but he has only thrown up once since we got him 5 weeks ago. So, I guess I must be doing something right.

I also aim for balance by rotation. I place an order every 2-3 months and include everything I'd like to see per meal in that order (if I balanced each meal every day), and rotate through over a week or so. I also feed a lot of chicken hearts for the taurine. My cats will eat green tripe, so I will occasionally throw a teaspoon or so of that in too for a digestive enzyme boost. I have fed rabbit in the past, but it's gotten so pricey it's reserved as a special treat.
Symptoms of zinc deficiency are scaling skin, hair loss, lesions, and depigmentation. My dog Tag had ALL of these symptoms and a zinc deficiency did cross my mind. His top two protein sources were beef and dark meat turkey, as well as organ meats so it didn't make sense to me. What looked like a zinc deficiency was actually cancer. So sometimes, symptoms can crop up that resemble one thing but are totally unrelated to their diet.
furmonster mom a Savannah? Wow!! They are gorgeous cats.

 

[iPappy]

My cats seem to handle the beef parts I use without any trouble. I source the heart and organs from Mexican grocery stores and meat markets. Those are my only sources for those things out here. I also feed turkey thighs, chicken thighs, and pork - usually shoulder, sometimes butt. I also just started using duck as a bone source for the pork - I have to ground it due to bone size but figure that's much better than calcium powders.
I feed 1/4's of chicken egg yolk to 2 out of 3 of my cats but one recently developed an intolerance to chicken egg. Eventually I may try quail egg with him.
I have quail available but I don't plan on using them often because they're expensive.

Just curious, but what grinder do you use and what duck part(s) do you use? I have an old-ish grinder that can handle chicken necks but it was not happy when I tried to grind duck necks!
Depending on your location, you might be able to find a raw feeding supplier that ships or a co-op that delivers to a specified location on certain days every few weeks or months that you could order some of the "fill in" parts you can't find locally.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

I have also been feeding a raw diet for many years (since 2008), and have never fed any kind of shellfish.

I have always gone by the mantra of balance by rotation, as opposed to balance for every single meal.

I feed a rotation of chicken (including bone), pork, beef, and lamb for main meats. I use whole chicken fryers, which means the dark meat portions are included. And for the pork, I use the shoulder cut which is more “red” than other cuts, though there are certainly “white” sections. Beef and lamb are both very red meats.
I also include a variety of organ meats, which are very rich in many minerals.

We just got a new cat from a local savanna rescue. The lady said the cat was not doing well on the commercial food, so she was trying to transition him to the raw food she feeds. But he was apparently still throwing it up. She insisted that pork and beef were not good for savannas, but he has only thrown up once since we got him 5 weeks ago. Also, his face trimmed down, and his coat has become glossy. So, I guess I must be doing something right.

I also feed pork shoulder. I have never fed lamb, although I would like to, but it is SOOO expensive. I have never been able to find a reasonably priced source.
Aside from the beef organ meats I mentioned, I have only been able to find pork kidney and heart, and of course chicken liver. But I can't find any other animal sources for organs.

Glad to hear about your rescue kitty! Keep up the good work!

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Just curious, but what grinder do you use and what duck part(s) do you use? I have an old-ish grinder that can handle chicken necks but it was not happy when I tried to grind duck necks!
Depending on your location, you might be able to find a raw feeding supplier that ships or a co-op that delivers to a specified location on certain days every few weeks or months that you could order some of the "fill in" parts you can't find locally.

I did look into the co-op thing through some website recently - I was trying to find green tripe actually. It was the first I had heard of it but it looked like there weren't any in my area - I live in the high desert, Ca. Shipping from raw feeding websites is cost prohibitive for me unfortunately.

My grinder is the STX Turboforce II. I called them once to see if it could handle duck bones and they said they didnt know, could I please call back and let them know if it worked, haha. So I did. And it does. As long as you chop the bones up first - which can be a bit laborious for a whole duck. But I used Bill's (Box of Rain's) mallet tip to section the bones into grinder friendly sized pieces first.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

I also aim for balance by rotation. I place an order every 2-3 months and include everything I'd like to see per meal in that order (if I balanced each meal every day), and rotate through over a week or so. I also feed a lot of chicken hearts for the taurine. My cats will eat green tripe, so I will occasionally throw a teaspoon or so of that in too for a digestive enzyme boost. I have fed rabbit in the past, but it's gotten so pricey it's reserved as a special treat.
Symptoms of zinc deficiency are scaling skin, hair loss, lesions, and depigmentation. My dog Tag had ALL of these symptoms and a zinc deficiency did cross my mind. His top two protein sources were beef and dark meat turkey, as well as organ meats so it didn't make sense to me. What looked like a zinc deficiency was actually cancer. So sometimes, symptoms can crop up that resemble one thing but are totally unrelated to their diet.
furmonster mom a Savannah? Wow!! They are gorgeous cats.

iPappy, that sounds like a great system. I do wish I had a little more of a budget for things like ordering online but it is what it is. The closest genuine raw feed supply store is "down the hill" from me which means about a 2 hr round trip. I was looking into the green tripe thing because one of my cats has had symptoms in the recent past of G.I. issues, and that place is my closest source for it (in other words, out of reach). Though I found a very helpful link from someone here to an informative page about raw feeding, IBD, and pre/ probiotics so I'm going to try a couple of their recommendations on him.

My cats don't have any symptoms of zinc deficiency, but after plugging in all the nutrients for a couple of my recipes using a nutritional data website, they came out deficient in zinc, as well as manganese and iron, which apparently is pretty common.

So sorry to hear about your dog I dread anything really terrible happening to one of my cats because I simply wouldn't have the budget to do much about it - I'm trying to give them the best preventative health I can and hope for the best.

 

[iPappy]

Ordering online is going to be what breaks me I think. The shipping and handling has gone up so much. Even doubling my order only doubles the shipping, so no savings there. Before I was able to source much more than one or two proteins I used Alnutrin. It was pricey too, but it seemed to contain everything they need and it kept them happy for quite some time. I still may go back to this, or use EZ Complete or something similar, if it's able to help stretch the food budget.
Thank you for the kind words about my dog. He was my "honorary cat" and loved cats with all his heart. Other dogs were meh
He was fed a raw diet starting at 6 months old. I have lost a lot of cats and dogs that were raw fed to cancer, and I can only hope that it delayed the onset. But some things are out of our control it seems.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Ordering online is going to be what breaks me I think. The shipping and handling has gone up so much. Even doubling my order only doubles the shipping, so no savings there. Before I was able to source much more than one or two proteins I used Alnutrin. It was pricey too, but it seemed to contain everything they need and it kept them happy for quite some time. I still may go back to this, or use EZ Complete or something similar, if it's able to help stretch the food budget.
Thank you for the kind words about my dog. He was my "honorary cat" and loved cats with all his heart. Other dogs were meh
He was fed a raw diet starting at 6 months old. I have lost a lot of cats and dogs that were raw fed to cancer, and I can only hope that it delayed the onset. But some things are out of our control it seems.

Your dog dog sounds like he was really sweet - I've never actually had a dog but one that loves cats is thumbs up to me! I used Alnutrin too for years. Then when the price kept going up I thought, why not use the Feline-nutrition.org recipe? 6 months or so, and continuing research later, I've found that recipe was just a starting point.
I feel you about the cancer, hence this post. I read some people say, only buy free-range, or organic meat for your pets, and I'm thinking who can even afford to buy that stuff for themselves? I'd love to, but, maybe in the next lifetime lol!
I live in a somewhat rural area so my raw ingredients are somewhat limited, but I've managed to scrounge together a workable variety for now. But I know I'm kind of obsessed when I dream of easy access to novel animal parts haha

 

[sophie1]

I don't feed shellfish to my cats either....

EZ Complete is a great option, and surprisingly cost effective if you use locally bought meats because of the shipping issue - yes it is getting crazy expensive. If you are willing to do some online ordering though, let me point you to Hare Today's beef organ grinds, which are pure gold: they contain beef heart, liver, kidney gullet and lung. My cats won't eat it on its own (and one of my cats is prone to vomiting after eating beef) but they're fine with it when I mix it with other foods. (before I tried EZ Complete, I tried a mix of Alnutrin powder with calcium, 1 lb boneless meat grind, and 1/4 lb beef organ grind - worked fine, just not as convenient.) And, really big bonus not having to deal with fresh liver and kidney!!!! While you're at it try the ground goat with tripe - my cats wouldn't eat tripe on its own either, but they really like the goat food. The goat is pricey, but the beef organ grinds are wonderfully inexpensive.

Another option to consider: Viva Raw. They just came out with a "cat complete" food line with all nutrients included. Cost is quite attractive, around $7/lb for chicken & turkey with free shipping if you order enough. They also have other cat-friendly proteins like rabbit and duck. The downsides are that the food is still 10% bone (darn it!) and also contains psyllium fiber which I'm not a fan of.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

I don't feed shellfish to my cats either....

EZ Complete is a great option, and surprisingly cost effective if you use locally bought meats because of the shipping issue - yes it is getting crazy expensive. If you are willing to do some online ordering though, let me point you to Hare Today's beef organ grinds, which are pure gold: they contain beef heart, liver, kidney gullet and lung. My cats won't eat it on its own (and one of my cats is prone to vomiting after eating beef) but they're fine with it when I mix it with other foods. (before I tried EZ Complete, I tried a mix of Alnutrin powder with calcium, 1 lb boneless meat grind, and 1/4 lb beef organ grind - worked fine, just not as convenient.) And, really big bonus not having to deal with fresh liver and kidney!!!! While you're at it try the ground goat with tripe - my cats wouldn't eat tripe on its own either, but they really like the goat food. The goat is pricey, but the beef organ grinds are wonderfully inexpensive.

Another option to consider: Viva Raw. They just came out with a "cat complete" food line with all nutrients included. Cost is quite attractive, around $7/lb for chicken & turkey with free shipping if you order enough. They also have other cat-friendly proteins like rabbit and duck. The downsides are that the food is still 10% bone (darn it!) and also contains psyllium fiber which I'm not a fan of.

Sophie1, thanks for the reply. Yeah, I definitely decided against the shellfish. For now, I just purchased chelated zinc since I have everything else I could possibly need when it comes to supplements. The two recipes I've pretty much mapped out nutritionally contain at least half to about 2/3 of their zinc requirements so at least it's not all coming from a supplement. I'll check out your suggestions although I can get chicken and turkey and beef liver and kidney readily and pretty cheaply - right now I have a lot more time than $$ so I don't mind making the food myself. Any mail order is probably going to be out of my price range right now but I'll keep them in mind for the possible future.

The only thing I haven't tried is reaching out to local farmers, via Facebook I guess. It's a long shot but I'm going to give it a try. I'd like to at least find some spleen. Then I wouldn't always need iron.

It sounds like a lot of cats have an issue eating too much beef at once so I'm definitely going to be keeping that in mind too.

This spring my cats have occasionally been deciding their own menu for breakfast, via the chipmunks on the property. They're not outdoor cats but we go out every morning for a romp around the property. I can't say I'm thrilled about this, but now that they've realized the critters are edible (2 out of 3 have anyway) they growl at me if I try to take them away, soo... it's give in or sacrifice my fingers. I'm keeping my fingers for now. Oh, and we have nearly a plague of grasshoppers right now - I've got one cat who's taking advantage and beefing up on grasshoppers big-time haha!

 

[iPappy]

Your dog dog sounds like he was really sweet - I've never actually had a dog but one that loves cats is thumbs up to me! I used Alnutrin too for years. Then when the price kept going up I thought, why not use the Feline-nutrition.org recipe? 6 months or so, and continuing research later, I've found that recipe was just a starting point.
I feel you about the cancer, hence this post. I read some people say, only buy free-range, or organic meat for your pets, and I'm thinking who can even afford to buy that stuff for themselves? I'd love to, but, maybe in the next lifetime lol!
I live in a somewhat rural area so my raw ingredients are somewhat limited, but I've managed to scrounge together a workable variety for now. But I know I'm kind of obsessed when I dream of easy access to novel animal parts haha

When my dog was sick I did switch to all organic for him, and it was somewhat costly. But, I was able to grow a lot of the vegetables in his meals, and the calcium was eggshells (my Mom has chickens, so those were practically free). Had he been 100 pounds, I don't know if I could have done it. What really stinks is the sourcing, as you said, because some days I can find plenty of turkey but no beef, or I can find beef but there is no poultry available, and if I already have what is available in my freezer it makes it really annoying!
At this point I'm doing the best I can. My work cats are eating a kibble/raw hybrid diet, and my house cats are still on all raw (two of them get very bad GI upsets if they eat kibble.) I know it's not perfect, but everyone is old and everyone is thriving. My two 15 year olds were ripping around tonight like kittens!

 

[iPappy]

Sophie1, thanks for the reply. Yeah, I definitely decided against the shellfish. For now, I just purchased chelated zinc since I have everything else I could possibly need when it comes to supplements. The two recipes I've pretty much mapped out nutritionally contain at least half to about 2/3 of their zinc requirements so at least it's not all coming from a supplement. I'll check out your suggestions although I can get chicken and turkey and beef liver and kidney readily and pretty cheaply - right now I have a lot more time than $$ so I don't mind making the food myself. Any mail order is probably going to be out of my price range right now but I'll keep them in mind for the possible future.

The only thing I haven't tried is reaching out to local farmers, via Facebook I guess. It's a long shot but I'm going to give it a try. I'd like to at least find some spleen. Then I wouldn't always need iron.

It sounds like a lot of cats have an issue eating too much beef at once so I'm definitely going to be keeping that in mind too.

This spring my cats have occasionally been deciding their own menu for breakfast, via the chipmunks on the property. They're not outdoor cats but we go out every morning for a romp around the property. I can't say I'm thrilled about this, but now that they've realized the critters are edible (2 out of 3 have anyway) they growl at me if I try to take them away, soo... it's give in or sacrifice my fingers. I'm keeping my fingers for now. Oh, and we have nearly a plague of grasshoppers right now - I've got one cat who's taking advantage and beefing up on grasshoppers big-time haha!

Ask the farmers if they could save you beef spleen during butchering. You only need a little at a time, so a small amount would last you for quite awhile. Does your vet support raw feeding, and if not, do you have any holistic vets in your area? | Standard Process
This is basically spleen in the freeze dried form, and a cat would only need a tiny amount. My dog took this, and a few other things, when he was sick. You can't get it OTC though, you have to go through a vet, and the products on Amazon have been shown to be knock offs containing who knows what.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

When my dog was sick I did switch to all organic for him, and it was somewhat costly. But, I was able to grow a lot of the vegetables in his meals, and the calcium was eggshells (my Mom has chickens, so those were practically free). Had he been 100 pounds, I don't know if I could have done it. What really stinks is the sourcing, as you said, because some days I can find plenty of turkey but no beef, or I can find beef but there is no poultry available, and if I already have what is available in my freezer it makes it really annoying!
At this point I'm doing the best I can. My work cats are eating a kibble/raw hybrid diet, and my house cats are still on all raw (two of them get very bad GI upsets if they eat kibble.) I know it's not perfect, but everyone is old and everyone is thriving. My two 15 year olds were ripping around tonight like kittens!

I hope my cats are still tearing it up when they're 15 Two of my cats are doing great, the third seems stable now but I suspect he is developing some G.I. issues. I am just starting some pre/probiotics with him, per the recomendations of a raw feeding site that has a lot of info about using them. Hopefully it will help keep things from developing into bigger problems. The more I've been reading about the benefits of bone and connective tissue the more I've been trying to not use calcium powders. I'm probably going to start making bone broth for him too since I save turkey and pork bones. I figure it can't hurt, and it may help.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Ask the farmers if they could save you beef spleen during butchering. You only need a little at a time, so a small amount would last you for quite awhile. Does your vet support raw feeding, and if not, do you have any holistic vets in your area? | Standard Process
This is basically spleen in the freeze dried form, and a cat would only need a tiny amount. My dog took this, and a few other things, when he was sick. You can't get it OTC though, you have to go through a vet, and the products on Amazon have been shown to be knock offs containing who knows what.

I have asked the butchers in my area - there are only 2 - and they both told me they dump all the guts in a bucket. Actually the second one I was asking about tripe, so I suppose I could ask him specifically about spleen, though I assume that's "guts" to him. So, yeah, I haven't tried from the other end - the farmers. The butchers here are mobile though and probably do a lot of the butchering for said farmers, but you never know. There is a Facebook page for buying and selling amongst farmers in the high desert that looks like it might be an appropriate place to ask. Or I could ask about our local farmers market, though the one near me is pretty small.
The only thing I remember seeing on Amazon is freeze dried lamb spleen for pets, but it's really expensive. Like $20 for a few ounces. Apparently they make freeze dried blood for pets which is probably a good iron source, but I'd have to see what it costs to order it. I only just learned about it today. If I ever manage to visit my mom down the hill again (her house has been in disarray from plumbing issues for months) I'm bringing a cooler and stocking up on a couple things I can't find up here.