Cisapride - regular vet vs. holistic vet

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abbyntim

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@GoHolistic, thank you, again.

Yes, cisapride is dependency-forming. I did not know that when it was prescribed to Tim a year ago. And while I did some initial research, enough to learn about what it had done to people, which frightened me, I never learned this. Every month when renewing the prescription, I asked if we could take Tim off cisapride. Every month, I heard "no", but with no good reason. I am mad at myself for not pushing harder, for insisting that we try something else. In January of this year, when I learned it was dependency-forming, I pushed hard and finally got the okay from the vet to give cisapride to Tim every other day instead of every day. But they did say Tim would have to be on it for life. Without even trying anything else. Even though I felt like a broken record, explaining all the changes we had made to prevent constipation.

I began to feel that all of Tim's problems were related and due to inflammation: frequent vomiting and diarrhea, coughing, weekly hairballs, sluggish and no energy; heck, I even thought the recent appearance of urinary crystals and his constipation episode could be related. The vets kept prescribing different medications for each problem, each of which caused other problems. With their okay, because they didn't know what else to do, we stopped all medications except cisapride. I wanted guidance on improving Tim's diet and seeing if we could resolve some of these issues by making him healthier overall. They couldn't give me any guidance and wished me luck. I made more changes to Tim's diet and ended up eliminating fish, chicken, carrageenan, and all gums and I fed him bone broth daily, thinking that might help.

Even though Tim improved almost immediately and I was losing track of time between vomiting and hairball episodes (that's how frequent they were), I felt very alone and unsupported, so I started researching holistic veterinarians and found one that specializes in nutrition. She's made a few adjustments, such as having me add probiotics and a tiny amount of psyllium to give him support during this process, as well as good lifestyle (holistic) advice, and we are on the right track. Tim is in better shape than ever, though he still seems to have a sensitive stomach, but we can manage this with diet.

Now we have to see if he will be able to poop on his own after being on cisapride for so long. The holistic veterinarian agrees we should at least try, and she has been so helpful during this long process. Tim has spent anywhere between two and four weeks at any given dose. Dose reductions consist of skipping an additional day between doses. The rate at which we've reduced his dose has been mostly up to him, though early on it was my comfort level. I was very uncomfortable initially when he lost the clockwork-like regularity that cisapride gave him. Now that he's more variable, but still mostly regular, I'm a lot more comfortable. I also started tracking Abby's BMs and see that she is regular with variability, and this is normal in a cat.

Tim is now taking cisapride once a week. We'll continue this through July 4th, which will be his projected last dose. Then we'll see how Tim does for the month of July. I'll continue to update this thread. Apologize for the lengthy post, but thought some background might be of interest to someone who might not want to read the entire thread.
 

peaches08

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That does seem awfully spaced out, but I'm not a vet.  I don't know the half-life of this med in cats, and I don't know the effects with and without the cisapride for your kitty.  I'll certainly be hoping for the best!
 
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abbyntim

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@peaches08, thank you for your wishes!

I was able to find one source that stated cisapride's half-life is 10 hours. Don't know if that would be the same in a cat; if not, it would likely be less? The holistic vet has stated that Tim likely only benefits from cisaprde the day after he takes it. I actually wonder if he benefits at all, this spread out, as even with a 10-hour half-life, it does not have an opportunity to accumulate now. The vet knows this has been extremely stressful for me, and I sometimes think the slow pace has been to keep me from having a meltdown.

I feel terrible admitting this, but I don't exactly know Tim's "normal" habits. And I think that was part of my anxiety early in this process: when he stopped being so regular (6am each day), wondering if he was adjusting back to normal, or if he was having a problem. Prior to his constipation episode last year, I do know he generally went once per day, usually in the morning, because we'd scoop two stools (we have two cats) each day, usually one with the morning scooping and one with the evening scooping; sometimes two cats' worth in one scooping. Even on daily cisapride, he would sometimes go up to 40 hours before having another BM, so I think that's normal for him, too. Provided his last dose is early July, the latter portion of July will consist of our learning what is "normal" for Tim. Tracking Abby has been really useful; even though all cats are different, it's given me an idea that a cat can be variable and still be okay. Still, I think I will be somewhat anxiously monitoring the litter box for some time.
 
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abbyntim

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Hopefully someone smarter than me can read this abstract and confirm, but it looks like cisapride's half-life in cats is significantly less than 10 hours.

Pharmacokinetics and suggested oral dosing regimen of cisapride: a study in healthy cats.


LeGrange SN1, Boothe DM, Herndon S, Willard MD.

Author information



Abstract


The disposition of cisapride in seven healthy cats was determined following administration of either a single oral (2 mg/kg body weight) or intravenous (i.v.) (1 mg/kg body weight) dose. Cats were studied using a random crossover design. After administration of the oral capsule, maximum plasma drug concentration (Cmax) +/- standard deviation (SD) was 73.32 +/- 16.59 ng/ml, and bioavailability +/- SD was 29.0 +/- 22.6%. Following i.v. administration, extrapolated peak cisapride concentration (C0) +/- SD was 421.30 +/- 155.37 ng/ml, and clearance +/- SD was 15 +/- 0.67 ml/kg per minute. Elimination half-life (T1/2) was similar for both routes of administration (T1/2(oral) +/- SD was 5.27 +/- 3.16 hr, T1/2(i.v.) +/- SD was 5.19 +/- 3.77 hr). Adverse effects were not observed. Based on these results, a dose of 1 mg/kg body weight per os (PO) every eight hours or 1.5 mg/kg body weight every 12 hours is expected to result in plasma drug concentrations within the therapeutic ranges established for humans. (emphasis added)

This, combined with the holistic vet's comment that cisapride is affecting Tim only on the day after he takes it, means he's been functioning with much less cisapride in his system than I thought. I am very excited, as he's doing very well with no cisapride for the better part of a week for several weeks now. In any event, I'll be sending another update (spreadsheet included) to the vet this weekend to confirm she wants us to continue on this final dose for a month.
 
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peaches08

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How much does he weigh?  And how much is he getting?  Not that I am really much help, again I'm not a vet.  BUT, looking at this report and where the peak time is, I highly doubt he has much cisapride at all (if any) by the time his next dose is due.  It looks like a good sign that he's still comfortable!

Don't feel awful about not knowing bowel habits.  How many of us do?  I seriously could not tell you which cat goes when, and how much, etc.  I used to be able to tell you, back when I was fighting diarrhea in all 3 but mainly Gadget.  I was scooping 4 times a day then.  Now?  Let's just say I'm not a role model, but my cats aren't using old poops to cover new ones.  Yet.  OK, little joke! 
 
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abbyntim

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Ha, yes the holistic vet has been pleased with his progress with each update. She, of course, knew the cisapride was leaving his system much faster than I suspected; my spreadsheets all assumed a 10-hour half-life.

Tim weighs about 15 pounds and he is getting the smallest available dose. I haven't looked at the label in quite some time and I don't remember, but he gets a capsule. It's either 5 mg or 2.5 mg, but I do know it's the smallest available dose in a capsule. At least that's what the prescribing vet told us.

Even with a 10-hour half-life, I figured he was spending more than half of his time without any cisapride with this latest dose reduction and one just prior. This means even less time. I think he's doing great and I'm super excited. Tim had to work a bit this morning to get out a very hairy poop, but otherwise they seem to come right out, at least as far as I can tell by listening to digging and covering.

Yeah, cat bowel habits. We don't pay attention unless we have to. Our problem is Tim just stopped going and never showed any signs until he had trouble breathing and was vomiting like crazy and we rushed him to the emergency vet. The problem was: I scoop in the morning, my husband scoops in the evening. We both noticed less poop, but assumed the other was scooping two cats' worth. Now we compare notes, to make sure both cats are pooping.
 

peaches08

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Either is a very low dose.  Less than 1 mg/kg.  Sounds like y'all are doing well!
 
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abbyntim

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Tim is still doing mostly well. He is on the third round of a weekly dose. Whether we stay here for a couple more rounds or do something else will be up to him. Either way, we'll be stopping cisapride very soon. Nervous and excited. Tim is still having a BM pretty much every day. About once a week, he has two 36-hour stretches back-to-back, which means he skips a day. But then he gets right back on track and goes early every morning. I'm not sure what to make of these, as they closely follow his weekly cisapride dose and I wonder if cisapride may be interfering with Tim's own rhythm now.

Tim had diarrhea on Tuesday. It was intense but lasted only one day. As predicted, almost exactly 48 hours after his final "clean-out", he had a nice BM. This was on Thursday night and, because he gets cisapride on Friday mornings, he had 0% in his system and therefore did everything from beginning the digestion process to elimination all on his own. I had been trying to gradually add more turkey to Tim's morning meal and had also been adding fish oil. I really don't know what the cause of the diarrhea was, but I stopped both the added turkey and the fish oil and won't be making any more changes or additions until he's done with cisapride and we are satisfied he's going on his own. We are also cutting back on the psyllium to see how he does. Because I like how it's clearing hair, though, I think I'll give it to him a couple of times a week instead of daily. The dose will remain tiny, 1/16 tsp, with lots of water.

I updated all spreadsheets with new knowledge about cisapride's elimination half-life. Tim is at less than 1.0% the day after he takes it and less than 0.0% approximately 50 hours after he takes it. As I write this, because he had cisapride at 5:30 Friday morning, he's at less than 0.09% and he had his morning BM several hours ago. By the time we go to bed tonight, Tim will be at approximately 0.01%, which is pretty much nothing. Excited to see what the week will bring, which may dictate our next step.
 

peaches08

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Great!  Sounds like things are really coming along.  The diarrhea...gosh, who knows?  It's certainly worth keeping track to see if it's a combination of meats or something.

I know you're hesitant about making too many changes at once, and I certainly don't blame you, but have you checked into Vet's Best Hairball Relief?  I've been really impressed with it so far.
 
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abbyntim

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I have thought about trying the Vet's Best. I calculated the amount of psyllium in one of those things and it's even less than I give Tim. That, along with the slippery elm and other ingredients, might be a nice thing to try instead of attempting to measure tiny amounts of psyllium. I think improving Tim's digestion with the probiotics and better food has helped a lot, but that cat sheds and he grooms, so I feel the need to give him extra help with eliminating hair in his stools rather than up and out. We have to visit one of our regular pet supply stores today to get food for Abby; they carry Vet's Best and I thought to get a bottle.
 

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Some of us that do natural haircare are familiar with marshmallow root providing what we call "slip"...it's a terrific detangler for hair.  That's in the Vet's Best as well as SEB and psyllium, and since SEB and psyllium were not successful in eliminating the hairball problem, I kind of wonder if it's the marshmallow root that's doing the trick for mine.  Or actually, it's just the right combination of things.  In any case I think it's worth a try.  I was truly skeptical but it made a believer out of me.  I had to play around with the dose but I think I found the right one fr now.  In full hairball season, 1/2 tab twice a day will probably be sufficient.
 
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abbyntim

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I ended up not getting the Vet's Best. Not yet, anyway. The store was out. Then, reviewing the ingredients on the website, I see it contains a small amount of chicken. Chicken is a suspect ingredient right now. So I may hold off on trying this until he's off cisapride and has been pooping regularly for a while. That's when we will start experimenting with other foods, as well, including raw.

But that's an interesting observation about the marshmallow. The psyllium is working really well to clear the hair, but I worry about bulking and really have to watch the dose to keep his poops nice and small (at least as small as a 15-pound cat eating commercial canned food can produce, anyway). Right now, on 1/16 tsp daily, his poops are about the same size as they were pre-psyllium. I am not noticing much difference with the SEB. But maybe I'll purchase some marshmallow root powder and try adding a tiny bit of that, so the proportions are the same as the Vet's Best. He already gets a daily probiotic, so we are nearly there. :)

Thanks!!
 

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Hmm...Tim's diarrhea incident is puzzling. 


Marshmallow root is great. I give it to Caesar every night for bladder health, and Dr. Hofve mentions on her site that it can be used as an alternative to SEB for most applications (http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/slippery-elm/). I am a real "green" person and so I do have an issue with SEB harvesting. Slippery elm (Ulmus fulva) is a tree. Marshmallow (Althea officinalis) is an herb.
 
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abbyntim

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Yes, I'm really not sure what to think about the diarrhea. It was preceded by a couple of days of possible nausea/excess stomach acid production and I gave him a few doses of Pepcid AC, which he's had before and responded well to. Not sure if the nausea/acid and diarrhea are even related or independent of each other.

I think Tim still has intestinal issues we need to work out. I noticed he had a decent amount of drool in his mouth this morning before I left for work. I may need to put him back on Pepcid AC for a while. I feel like we are sort of on hold with everything during this crucial time when we are nearing our last dose of cisapride and we see how he does without even the "jump-starts".

Maybe my version of Vet's Best without the chicken will help, as it advertises itself as a digestive aid. I plan to purchase marshmallow root powder tonight on my way home from work and mix up the concoction for Tim. I didn't realize the issue with slippery elm until after I purchased a bottle. Well, it's a large bottle and I don't think I'll purchase any more; I, too, worry about sustainability.
 
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abbyntim

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Tim had what we believe is his last dose of cisapride yesterday morning. I am tentative with this statement because we may give him one more, next Friday or Saturday. With 4th of July and all the fireworks, we'll see how he does. Neither cat likes fireworks and they usually spend 4th of July under the bed. If it seems like the fireworks leading up to 4th of July are throwing him off, then we'll give him one more dose. But we think he's done, we hope he's done.

Tim's done marvelously well the past week. After his bout with diarrhea, he got himself on schedule and went every single morning, some time between 5:30am and 7:00am. This morning, the day after cisapride, was an outlier as he went at 7:30am and was thus two hours "late" (he takes cisapride at 5:30 in the morning and, when he was getting this medication more regularly, he usually went at 5:30 the day after).

I spoke briefly with the holistic veterinarian yesterday who wants us to keep doing what we're doing. She wants us to keep everything very consistent for the next month, to make sure everything is functioning as it should. Provided the month of July goes well, we'll start gradually introducing raw and doing other things to help his sensitive tummy in August.

I purchased marshmallow root powder and made a blend that approximates the Vet's Best hairball remedy. I used 1 capsule of marshmallow, 2 capsules of psyllium, and 1/4 tsp of slippery elm. This makes 20 doses and each dose is approximately 50 mg psyllium, 23 mg marshmallow, and 19 mg slippery elm. I think I might break down and get a small-unit scale to be a little more precise, as right now I am eyeballing the doses. But I am pleased with how this is working. We started Monday night and Tim had very nice poops all week. Yesterday's was a bit bigger, but it was a major hair clean-out. I've been giving it about two hours after Tim eats his evening meal, blending it with a tiny bit of food, and will continue this for the foreseeable future.
 

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If only Tim knew how well you document his BMs! LOL. I'm glad to hear he's doing well. Good thinking ahead with the fireworks. I'm worried about that, too, and the stress it'll cause my senior ones.
 
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abbyntim

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I think I am nearing the end of posting on this thread, as Tim is now off cisapride and our challenge will be to make sure he has regular BMs and deal with his lingering tummy issues. His last cisapride dose was Friday, June 27, so it's been just over a week since we stopped this medication. We got through 4th of July and all the noise, and he had a nice BM early this morning.

I came very close to giving Tim one last dose of cisapride yesterday morning. From the vantage point of today, I see Tim did one of his back-to-back 36-hour stretches. This is somewhat normal for him and he even had this pattern occasionally when on daily cisapride. But Thursday morning when he did not go, I wasn't sure what was going to happen, with the upcoming fireworks noise and no cisapride "jump-start". Well, he had a BM Thursday night, so we did not give him cisapride yesterday. He did not have a BM yesterday, as I expected. But I did expect to see one this morning and we contemplated giving him cisapride if he did not. Well, he had one this morning, as expected. So now we wait to see what happens. Based on previous patterns, I expect he might have a little difficulty as his body realizes it's not getting any cisapride "help", and I expect this around next weekend. We will see!

When I was worried about what might happen, my husband and I decided to make an appointment with the holistic vet for this morning, just in case. It turned out that we did not need this appointment, as he had two BMs between the time I made the appointment and the time we went. But we decided to go, anyway, as we thought it would be good to check in as we enter this crucial time for Tim. Plus, Tim is showing signs of mild tummy upset and I wanted some guidance on managing this over the next couple of weeks. Highlights from our appointment:
  • Tim's thorough physical exam revealed no problems. Heart and lungs sound good. No gurgling in tummy and no obvious thickness from feeling (not precise, I know, but not ready to go invasive yet) and colon was soft (empty, as hoped and expected). In fact, the vet commented on how handsome and healthy Tim looks!
  • My 100mg fiber blend meant to mimic Vet's Best hairball remedy seems to be working and she wants me to keep doing that. We may bump the fiber on occasion if needed, but it would not be a regular thing and it would only be if he seems to need some help moving things along.
  • I am continuing with the added dose of slippery elm in the morning, as his nausea symptoms have lessened over the past few days since I started that and the amount and proportion of soft stool is decreasing every day. But I am also to re-start Pepcid AC for a few days, twice a day, then taper to once per day for a few days. If he is still having problems, we need to go back to the vet because there are other things we can try.
  • I will back off on the calming treats, as they're pretty rich and may be what's bothering Tim's tummy. He's been getting them every day for a while now, sometimes twice a day, to help deal with the loud construction next door. The loud work has mostly stopped, so I think we'll be okay. I gave him a little more than normal yesterday to help him cope with the fireworks and those things worked; he was pretty mellow and only spent about 10 minutes under the bed (compared to all evening in previous years).
  • Because Tim's been doing so well with his BMs on the weekly dose of cisapride and we don't have any reason to think he won't do as well without, we may start the transition to raw later this month instead of in August. We'll see how he does with his BMs.
  • We're continuing with our food plan and daily probiotics, though Tim gained some weight and I need to cut back on some of his food. This is tough, as he's so food-motivated and even pushes Abby away from her plate to eat more. We talked about some ideas for dealing with this, some of which we are already doing. This is likely to be our continuous struggle moving forward. We may try Feliway to see if that curbs some of Tim's food aggression.
So I think that's it! This post turned out to be longer than I expected, but it's an exciting time for us. It didn't really occur to me until the vet nuzzled Tim and told him she was happy we got him off cisapride, that Tim is off cispride!
 
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