CD dry food still prescription?

[summermh]

I totally hear you, and I may wind up back in the C/D boat myself, but my kitty's skin allergy issues are to the point that I'm more worried about having to give repeat steroid shots than an antibiotic every now and then for a bladder infection. Fingers crossed the Wellness Core can pull off double duty

. Oh, here's the GA for the Wellness Core (turkey/chicken/liver). Low magnesium, and I emailed asking about the phosphorous:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein \tNot Less Than \t12.0%
Crude Fat \tNot Less Than \t7.0%
Crude Fiber \tNot More Than \t0.5%
Moisture \tNot More Than \t78.0%
Ash \tNot More Than \t2.1%
Magnesium \tNot More Than \t0.028%
Taurine \tNot Less Than \t0.10%

As Served Per Can (percent per can)
Protein: \t12.7%
Fat: \t9.94%
Fiber: \t0.29%
Met. Energy (Kcal/kg): \t1,400
Ash: \t1.76%
Magnesium: \t0.02%
Taurine: \t0.14%

Caloric Analysis (kcal/can)
5.5 oz. \t218

 

[sharky]

Originally Posted by SummerMH

I totally hear you, and I may wind up back in the C/D boat myself, but my kitty's skin allergy issues are to the point that I'm more worried about having to give repeat steroid shots than an antibiotic every now and then for a bladder infection. Fingers crossed the Wellness Core can pull off double duty

. Oh, here's the GA for the Wellness Core (turkey/chicken/liver). Low magnesium, and I emailed asking about the phosphorous:

remember to get the dry matter analysis ... it is roughly 3.5 times what is on the label

 

[summermh]

thanks Sharky! will ask for that too and post it here

 

[bad_kitty2001]

Midnight's been on C/D for over a year now. I just buy the largest bag which is 18 or 20 lbs. I pay $61 for mine out here in california. It sure does hurt the wallet, but he hasn't been sick since I feed him only C/D.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by SummerMH

I totally hear you, and I may wind up back in the C/D boat myself, but my kitty's skin allergy issues are to the point that I'm more worried about having to give repeat steroid shots than an antibiotic every now and then for a bladder infection.

The thing is, antibiotics only cure the secondary, bacterial, infection.

Crystals are not cured with antibiotics.

Crystals are, in my experience, controlled by diet. Every cat is different and I hope the all canned diet will work at keeping the struvite crystals away for your kitty. Is your cat male or female? (sorry I've forgotten, and too lazy to search this thread for the answer!)

With males FLUTD is very much more serious, and the male can block so easily, a male cat has a very narrow urethra. And once blocked he will die (a terrible painful death) within 24 hours without emergency treatment.

I feel for you with the skin allergy problem, too. Multiple special needs are a real struggle to find a balance, I know.

thanks for the info on the core, I couldn't find it on their website.

 

[summermh]

My cat having the issues is a 12-year old male. We were never prescribed the S/D, so I don't think our cat's crystals ever were serious or life-threatening (and he's never had stones), but clearly it's something we want to keep in check. It's been so long since we've had any recurrence that I'm having a hard time remembering the details of the original diagnosis, and our current vet has never seen him with an infection/crystals. Before we started him on the C/D, anytime a bladder infection flared he would pee in the tub then meow at us to make sure we saw it -- so, while I hope he doesn't have to, fingers crossed he gives us the same courtesy this time around

If I give the Wellness CORE a try, I will watch him closely.

If we weren't having these skin allergy issues, I wouldn't even be looking to change from the C/D, but I've seen SO MANY stories from owners whose cats' allergies have disappeared since switching to a high quality food. As I'm typing this, I've heard him scratch and lick at least 10 times. Don't know how the poor thing is getting any sleep. The first/last steroid shot he received worked wonders, but just 8 weeks later it's wearing off and I hate for him to have any more. I've also seen a handful of testimonials from FLUTD cat owners who switched to Wellness from a prescription diet, with no recurrence of crystals, at least success in that area seems possible -- will keep you posted!

*edited to add: you make a good point about the antibiotic... if we switch to Wellness CORE and he tests positive for crystals later, we'll go back to a prescription diet, and back to square one for his skin allergies.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by SummerMH

My cat having the issues is a 12-year old male. We were never prescribed the S/D, so I don't think our cat's crystals ever were serious or life-threatening (and he's never had stones), but clearly it's something we want to keep in check. It's been so long since we've had any recurrence that I'm having a hard time remembering the details of the original diagnosis, and our current vet has never seen him with an infection/crystals. Before we started him on the C/D, anytime a bladder infection flared he would pee in the tub then meow at us to make sure we saw it -- so, while I hope he doesn't have to, fingers crossed he gives us the same courtesy this time around

If I give the Wellness CORE a try, I will watch him closely.

If we weren't having these skin allergy issues, I wouldn't even be looking to change from the C/D, but I've seen SO MANY stories from owners whose cats' allergies have disappeared since switching to a high quality food. As I'm typing this, I've heard him scratch and lick at least 10 times. Don't know how the poor thing is getting any sleep. The first/last steroid shot he received worked wonders, but just 8 weeks later it's wearing off and I hate for him to have any more. I've also seen a handful of testimonials from FLUTD cat owners who switched to Wellness from a prescription diet, with no recurrence of crystals, at least success in that area seems possible -- will keep you posted!

*edited to add: you make a good point about the antibiotic... if we switch to Wellness CORE and he tests positive for crystals later, we'll go back to a prescription diet, and back to square one for his skin allergies.

That's funny...well interesting anyway. As I already said, my experience switching to wellness was just the opposite, after 2 months her urine was chock full of crystals and phosphorous (and she'd never had the phosphorous in there before) and I've read of others with the same experience.

Well, I know you will watch him closely, and I hope it works for him, poor itchy boy. Has your vet every thought of trying atopica?

http://www.us.atopica.com/facts_atopica/en/index.shtml

(like many other meds it is labeled for dogs, but is being used very successfully in cats)

I know a kitty with a similar problem to yours and he is now on atopica with excellent results. have you seen a veterinary dermatologist?

 

[summermh]

Otto, did you switch to the Wellness CORE canned, or the regular Wellness canned?

As promised, here's the phosphorous info on the Wellness CORE canned (high protein, zero grains):
Chicken, Turkey, & Chicken Liver = 0.30% Phosphorus.

I've just asked for the Dry Matter % so we can more easily compare with C/D.

Talked to my vet today about our options for skin issues... he did mention the Atopia, and it sounds promising. Only negative is that it's around $100/month and will take about that long before we know if it will work for us. And, giving my cat a pill every day won't excite either of us

But, the vet agreed it's a healthier long-term option versus the steroid.

Regarding my food thoughts, he's not thrilled with the idea of us switching from the C/D, but feels if the magnesium level in the new food is at least as low as the C/D, then we should be OK. But he doesn't believe AT ALL that going to an all natural food will help his skin issues. Another thing that bothers me about the C/D is that my other two kitties, with no urinary problems, eat it too. And I've just read today, in the same Dr. Pierson article I mentioned earlier, that urinary prescription diets given to cats who don't need it can OVERLY acidify the urine and cause calcium oxalate crystals, which DON'T respond to prescription diets. We actually had to put one of our kitties to sleep a few years ago, she was only 9 years old, due to ureter stones causing kidney shutdown. She had been eating C/D for years due to my other cat's need, so I never understood how she got stones in the first place. Now, after reading Dr. Pierson's article, I'm betting the C/D caused those stones.

I'm also beginning to wonder if Mr. Grey ever had crystals... Dr. Pierson's article states that samples brought in from home and/or not tested within 30 minutes will naturally form crystals outside of the body, when the cat doesn't have crystals inside the body. A couple of times I brought samples in from home, but what I can't remember is whether it was one of those samples which tested positive for crystals. I've asked our old vet to mail copies of his file to see if I can figure it out.

What a project, and one I wasn't expecting to take on -- darn that all-natural food article

!!

 

[otto]

I am feeding Wellness (not Core) canned (to the other two), the grain free varieties, (and they get some Wellness kibble as a snack, about a tablespoon or two a day). And that is what I gave Mazy in my experiment.

Since I've always had special needs cats, I have always had cats on different diets, I'm used to it. I will always be the Dreaded Cat Food Police. hehe

the c/d is designed to work for both oxalate and struvite, so it is not such a problem for the healthy cats as it could be. However I don't let my other cats eat the c/d.

The Atopica is expensive, but I know a kitty who has had wonderful results. He does have to have regular blood work to check his liver values. I believe it does come in a generic form now too.

boy this thread has drifted, LOL!

 

[sharky]

lol.. I am not steering the thread back..

but a quick dry matter on the core would yeild 1-1.2 roughly

 

[summermh]

Otto, you are so right about this thread, I hope we aren't driving the PP's crazy! Here is what Dr. Pierson says about feeding cats an "acidifying diet," I'd be very interested in hearing if you agree or disagree:

For many years, struvite (magnesium, ammonium, and phosphorus) was the predominant mineral mixture found in cat urine due to the species-inappropriate level of grains in cat food. Knowing this, Man then stepped in and started acidifying commercial cat food with things like dl methionine - instead of cutting into profit margin by removing the grains and going back to meat.

The so-called 'urinary tract formulas' were born.

Unfortunately, in trying to 'fix' a cat's unnatural alkaline urinary pH - caused by Man's greed in the first place - pet food manufacturers created even more problems by adding urinary acidifiers in the form of dl methionine, etc., which led to the formation of calcium oxylate (CaO) crystals/stones in many cats. Suddenly, there were far more patients suffering with CaO crystals/stones than there were patients with struvite crystals/stones.

One of the most serious problems with this fact is that CaO stones can only be removed with surgery. There is no way to dissolve them with dietary manipulation. Struvite stones, on the other hand, are more amenable to dissolution with dietary manipulation.

Most stones found in the kidney are CaO and since we cannot dissolve them with dietary manipulation and since surgery to remove kidney stones (versus bladder stones) is not a safe option, it is easy to see how damaging the effects of feeding an acidifying diet can be if used for long periods of time.

Other systemic problems, including kidney damage and low potassium, can be seen in conjunction with the feeding of these acidifying diets, as well.

That's what is concerning me about my other cats eating the C/D, although my current and previous vet both said it's no problem for "healthy" cats to eat the C/D. What do you think?

I wish I could keep my kitties eating separately -- how in the world do you it? They are grazers, so I can't really pick up bowls when I leave and watch them like a hawk when I put them back down (especially since I also have small children in the house to keep up with). Any advice is appreciated

!

 

[sharky]

The above has BEEN well Documented by various studies to be true.... It used to be oxalate crystals were almost unheard of and sturvite were common.... today it is nearing 50/50 ... Many years ago Ash levels ie minerals were nearing 20% of a cat food formula today the ave is 5.5 -7.5

IMHO I would NOT feed a RX food to a cat who did NOT have that issue... Just like I do not give my supplements to cats that are not in need of it ... ie my liver cats get a liver supplement ( rx from vet though a whole food natural product) the healthy NON liver issue cats DO NOT get it ....

 

[summermh]

sharky, it just breaks my heart that C/D probably gave my female cat stones, and led to her early departure at only 9 years old. I read somewhere in the last couple of days that vets only receive a few weeks worth of nutrition instruction, and it basically amounts to these prescription diet food reps coming the the schools and educating them on their products

. Dr. Pierson really seems to understand nutrition and its function beyond the mainstream vet community. I'm starting to think it may be worth a phone consultation with her. Did you see my earlier note (per Dr. Pierson) about crystals forming in urine samples AFTER coming out of the body? Here's what she says:

Crystals are often erroneously diagnosed because they can form once the urine has been removed from the bladder. Therefore, when urine is sent off to an outside laboratory, or a sample is brought from home, a report of "crystals" is somewhat meaningless since you have no idea if they were actually present within the patient. This misdiagnosis - and overemphasis of the significance of urinary crystals if they are present in the bladder - leads to the client becoming alarmed and the patient needlessly being put on a low quality - and potentially dangerous - diet such as one of the prescription 'urinary tract' diets.

She also says

A small amount of crystals is not an abnormal finding in cat urine and the cat should not be automatically put on a prescription diet such as Hill's Prescription c/d, etc.

And she goes on to explain that small amounts of "normal" crystals will flow out of the body just fine if the cat is on a wet diet and drinking filtered water.

I would love to hear your opinion on these issues

 

[sharky]

IMHO I would find a vet you can actually go and see

... I am not a fan of the phone consult unless your vet and you are on the call or ALL vet records are gotten on said cat prior to the consult... I live in a town of 23000 and had access to TWO holistic , nutrition minded vets within 3 miles of my house... that does not include the traditional vets who will work with you to find a new solution for a feeding issue .... ie : My RB Kandie was diagnosised with CRF at nearly 15 , vet who diagnosed her was not my fave at the clinic handed me a "free " bag of SD KD and some canned said she had 12-18 months regardless of what treatment... She refused to eat it ... Went back in with brochure on food she had been on that she loved .. Gave TWO vets a education that day and found out % age wise the old food was fine... Today that clinic RXs most commonly a MUCH higher end food as ALL the vets decided to learn about nutrition

... ps I do not use that clinic as my fave dr went out on his own and is in the next town... But the 2 clinics I use today one has a nutrition degree and the other two drs Listen and will research if need be ....

YES from what I have learned by asking ??s of my vets and research on my own some crystals are normal... it comes down to size and quanity

Filtered water is a ??able and varies on where you live and where the water is from... I filter water for impurities like nitrates as I am sensitive but studies have shown some filtered water actually leaches minerals from Human systems so I would assume the same for a cat ...

My vets do not take samples over 30 minutes old as they are no longer good

 

[otto]

Yes, my vet and I have discussed in great length how the oxalate are starting to show up once acidifiers starting being added to foods and I have read the same quotes you have posted.

What I think is, I would very very much like to have Mazy on a better food, and a canned diet, but I have tried it, and it doesn't work for her. She had three instances of UTI and/or crystals before she was 18 months old. Since being on the c/d she no longer has urinary tract problems of any kind. When I took her off the c/d, the problems came back.

My vet uses cystocentesis (taking the urine directly from the bladder via syringe) so the samples are clean.

I have had other vets tell me it is okay to give the healthy cats the c/d but I do not agree and do not let them have it.

I don't free feed. I never have. My cats are on a scheduled meal regimen, and each cat waits at his or her spot until I put the dish in front of him/her.

I'm not quite sure how I trained them to do this, I am sorry to say, but it can be done. I will have to think about it, and see if I can figure out how it started. Well I know it started when I had Baby and Sissy, my first cats as an adult on my own, because they were on different diets. That was 25 years ago. But even when I was up to five cats, I still had them all waiting at their spots for meals.

By now, each new comer has learned from the resident cats how meal times work, so it's been passed down over the years. Hmmmmm.....

If you want I can try to work up a plan for you on how to transition your cats to schedule feeding, so that you don't have to feed the other cats the c/d. Are you planning to put the others on an all canned diet? That alone requires schedule feeding as canned food cannot be left to sit for very long.

I know it will be quite a challenge, since you must already be terribly busy with small children to care for. Maybe you could PM me a general outline of your daily routine? That would help me think things out for you.